CID

mazda2

Hi, any advice welcome. This is my fifth year working in a school, first two years were 22 hours replacing a teacher working for dept, then was on job share hours for the next two years. This year job sharers returned and i was cut to six hours, - six hours are still replacing a different job sharer. Do i have any entitlement to a CID or do the last 5 years count for nothing???

Toto Wolfcastle

Your first two years were covering for someone who was on secondment, right? So they weren't your own hours and don't count. Job sharing hours are not your own hours either so they wont count. Basically, you need to have your own hours for them to count for a CID.

hairytuna

The only year that matters in terms of hours for your CID is the fourth year.
Your entitlement to a CID depends on whether your contract was fixed term or fixed purpose. If you have 8 hours fixed term and 6 hours fixed purpose in year 4, then you are entitled to 8 hours CID. This is regardless whether or not in year 1,2,3 you only had maternity hours etc. As long as you have fixed term hours in year 4, you are entitled to a CID for the fixed term hours in year 5.
This is what I was told by my VEC.

theLuggage

The interpretation of CIDs and how they work in the education system is continually changing especially as appeals, decisions by adjudicator and rights commissioner emerge. I'm not sure if it matters whether you had any of your own hours at all any more. I have heard you can use maternity leave etc to build up to year 4 as hairytuna says (though I have no personal knowledge of it) and there have been decisions to grant CIDs based on hours that weren't the person's in year 4. Sorry that's not the best English! First thing to do is contact your union and ask their opinion on the matter and take it from there.

implausible

theLuggage wrote: »

I have heard you can use maternity leave etc to build up to year 4 as hairytuna says (though I have no personal knowledge of it) and there have been decisions to grant CIDs based on hours that weren't the person's in year 4.

True, you can use a maternity leave as one of the years. However, two of the years out of the four (including year 4) have to be your own hours (fixed term contract). In the OPs case, it doesn't sound like she had any of her own hours at any stage.

Moody_mona

Why is it that you can use maternity leave cover but not secondment cover? That's the impression I've gotten from this thread and the other CID thread.

Toto Wolfcastle

I genuinely wasn't aware the maternity leave cover could be used (and this changes things for someone I know) so perhaps secondment cover can be used too. Must go read up on it.

implausible

You can use secondment cover, but NOT for the full four years. At some stage, you have to have your own hours.

Toto Wolfcastle

That makes sense really, doesn't it?

Moody_mona

implausible wrote: »

You can use secondment cover, but NOT for the full four years. At some stage, you have to have your own hours.

Thanks for that, it's all very confusing and complicated! I think that's fair enough though! Is there a circular or something I could have a look at for bedtime reading which details all this?

implausible

I can never remember where to find this stuff. I think the secondment one came out of a Labour Court ruling, I've no time to google it now though. I know of a teacher in my school who got her CID even though one of her years was a maternity leave and another teacher in the county who got a CID despite covering a career break.

mazda2

Thanks for the replies, i contacted the union, basically i still have no idea. Some of my hours over the past 3 years were replacing a teacher on job share - whose has completely different subjects than me. So the union think that these hours could be considered my own. If they can be proved to be my own hours then i could go to arbitration to get a CID. So i'm now in a dilema have you ever heard of anyone proving hours are actually their own? and then winning at arbitration?

hairytuna

Sounds like you are in a very awkward position.
Is there any way you can negotiate with the principal this year for some fixed term hours and then pursue the CID next year?
I would be concerned that if you did win the right to those hours on a CID, then that will be all the hours you will ever get in the school.
Literally the bare minimum you are entitled to and if its less than 10 it will be very very hard to get by on.
The Circular Letter 56/08 (TUI website) does mention secondment as excluding eligibility for CID, so I suppose it will depend on what your contract said last year.

theLuggage

If the subject you were teaching is different to the teacher out on leave then your case sounds similar to one the union fought and won for another member - must be why they are telling you they may be considered your own. If you look back through union newsletters and publications you will see cases they have won (well on the asti site anyway).

For what it's worth I had to push to get my hours for CID increased and went to adjudication - it was a different scenario and a total long shot but it turned out well for me. You just never know when you start these things. It's always better to have tried everything then wonder what if. Six hours may not be much but it is something. Would your management be happy to keep you on and top up your hours if you won the 6 hours? Is there a lot of substitution in your school that could supplement the 6 hours?

mazda2

Hi,

Thanks for all your replies, i just dont know what to do. Have been picking up a bit of sub work in school. When i asked why i was cut so much i was told it was because of job sharers returning.

I know that at least two teachers plan on leaving before feb - one of whom has 15 hours of one of my subjects. Could i be in with a chance of getting these hours? and if so any chance they could be long term?

I dont know if i should go down the route of fighting for my CID and getting union involved and possibly falling out with school? Or should i wait and see what happens in feb?

hairytuna

Did you get a chance to check your contract for last year?

The only way to determine if its worth persuing is to look at the wording of it.
If your contract is fixed purpose then it is very unlikely that you will be successful
If its fixed purpose/fixed term then you should be entitled to the fixed term hours for a CID.

It may be a good strategy to try and work on building a relationship with the school but you will have no guarantees then for next year. Presumably you have built up a good relationship to date but that obv hasnt helped for your CID. Every principal and VEC know well in advance who is due a CID.

If you are entitled to it this year and dont pursue it I would be concerned that next year your contract wont be renewed at all and your time for appeal will have laspsed.

Teachers who are retiring in Feb wont really help. All that will happen is the hours will be available until the end of school year and then reabsorbed into school allocation in sept when class sizes are increased.

Not sure if that actually helped but please check your contract!!

theLuggage

Just because the union is involved doesn't mean you fall out with the school. My principal was happy for me to push my case with them. Why? Because he now has extra hours allocated to his school and he can make smaller classes which benefits students. Chances are the pupil/teacher ratio will be hit again in december budget, you'd think any school would be happy to get extra allocations provided they're happy with you as the teacher. The best person to judge that situation is you. If the only reason your hours got cut is because teachers came back from jobsharer it suggests to me that your principal is happy enough, otherwise why keep you for so long?

mazda2

Its hard to know who to trust and what to believe. Getting conflicting advice in school. How do CIDs work, is it up to the teacher or school to apply for one? Does it affect school allocation?

implausible

mazda2 wrote: »

Its hard to know who to trust and what to believe. Getting conflicting advice in school. How do CIDs work, is it up to the teacher or school to apply for one? Does it affect school allocation?

You don't apply for a C.ID., you are given one by the VEC/Dept of Education when you are entitled to one. If you don't get it when you are due, get onto the union. If you don't know if you are entitled to one, get onto the union.

theLuggage

The school applies for the CID - if its awarded then the school gets extra hours to cover that CID. If the union think you might have a case, go for it - what do you have to lose? Would your principal be supportive. Have to say mine was great and actually actively encouraged me to go to my union

Seanchai

I hope the op doesn't mind my coming in on this question with my own, related, question.

I started teaching a 22-hour week in January 2011 in a school (I had been working in a different school prior to this). I worked all the weeks from thereon. I did not, however, sign any contract. But I completed the academic year and was paid directly by the DoE for all of this work.

This September, however, I am on fewer hours in the same school and this was the first time I signed any contract with the DoE - the contract where you get a solicitor to sign it and so on. What is my status regarding a CID?

rainbowtrout

Seanchai wrote: »

I hope the op doesn't mind my coming in on this question with my own, related, question.

I started teaching a 22-hour week in January 2011 in a school (I had been working in a different school prior to this). I worked all the weeks from thereon. I did not, however, sign any contract. But I completed the academic year and was paid directly by the DoE for all of this work.

This September, however, I am on fewer hours in the same school and this was the first time I signed any contract with the DoE - the contract where you get a solicitor to sign it and so on. What is my status regarding a CID?

Solicitor??? Since when do solicitors sign employment contracts???

There was a moratorium on hiring teachers for the last academic year so the hours you worked from Jan - Jun were casual subbing hours, no contract as you said yourself.

Check it with your union but gut feeling tells me because the hours from Jan - Jun were not contracted they don't count for CID. Also if you didn't get paid for the summer it would constitute a break in employment with the school. So your contracted hours would run from Sept 11 onwards and if you are employed in a continuous capacity from now on in that school you will be entitled to a CID in the school year starting Sept 15.

implausible

Seanchai wrote: »

I hope the op doesn't mind my coming in on this question with my own, related, question.

I started teaching a 22-hour week in January 2011 in a school (I had been working in a different school prior to this). I worked all the weeks from thereon. I did not, however, sign any contract. But I completed the academic year and was paid directly by the DoE for all of this work.

This September, however, I am on fewer hours in the same school and this was the first time I signed any contract with the DoE - the contract where you get a solicitor to sign it and so on. What is my status regarding a CID?

Because you started after the 31st October, you didn't have a PRPT (pro-rata part-time) contract. If you were working week to week, you were casual, if it was for a set length of time i.e. definitely until the end of the year, you had a non-casual contract.

The contract you have signed now is a PRPT one, which has a far better standing (regardless of the amount of hours) when it comes to working up to a CID. You would need to be getting one of these contracts every year for the next three years before you would be entitled to a CID.

Seanchai

Thanks to you both. Very interesting. I didn't get paid during the summer so that's very interesting if the "contract" is broken if you're not being paid over the summer. I have yet to get paid under this new RPT contract so I'm wondering will they spread the payment over the summer months also.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Solicitor??? Since when do solicitors sign employment contracts???

There was a statutory declaration regarding Garda vetting which had to be signed in front of a solicitor as part of the contract.

Toto Wolfcastle

Seanchai wrote: »

There was a statutory declaration regarding Garda vetting which had to be signed in front of a solicitor as part of the contract.

I had to do that too. It's while you're waiting for the proper Garda Vetting to be done.

Seanchai

I just searched for RPT and came across the following:

'Part time teachers whose appointments fall within the approved allocation but who are appointed subsequent to 31st October are entitled to the same salary and conditions as for an RPT teacher. Payment of salary for such teachers is made as for a non-casual part time teacher (see 3.7 below)'.

Now I'm confused. Is this saying that despite my being paid for the 22 hours worked above since January 2011 without signing a contract, I nevertheless have the "same salary and conditions as for an RPT teacher", i.e. in terms of CID they will backdate my employment to January 2011, when I started working, rather than to September 2011, when I signed my first contract?

implausible

Seanchai wrote: »

I just searched for RPT and came across the following:

'Part time teachers whose appointments fall within the approved allocation but who are appointed subsequent to 31st October are entitled to the same salary and conditions as for an RPT teacher. Payment of salary for such teachers is made as for a non-casual part time teacher (see 3.7 below)'.

Now I'm confused. Is this saying that despite my being paid for the 22 hours worked above since January 2011 without signing a contract, I nevertheless have the "same salary and conditions as for an RPT teacher", i.e. in terms of CID they will backdate my employment to January 2011, when I started working, rather than to September 2011, when I signed my first contract?

The same salary and conditions refer to the same pay, on the same increment level as an RPT teacher, but your pay would have been calculated inclusive of holiday pay, rather than you being paid over the holidays.

As for backdating the contract, I don't know. I have a colleague who got a CID and one of whose years included a maternity leave, but the maternity leave took in most of the year, which leads me to think that there must a minimum number of non-casual hours for a non-casual year to be included for CID purposes.

Godge

First point, entitlements under the Fixed Term Act are personal and therefore depend on the circumstances of the individual meaning it is very hard to have clear and consistent rules as there are a large number of different situations.

Secondly, you must have four years continuous service. A break for the summer sometimes does and sometimes does not constitute a break in service. Most of the time, not being paid for the summer doesn't mean a break in service. However, if the previous service before the summer was casual in nature, it may be a break in service. The law on this is not fully developed but there was an interesting case on the labour court website about seasonal workers.

Thirdly, at the time you qualify for a CID (after four years), you must not be covering for someone else. So if you are covering for half a jobsharer, a career break, maternity leave etc. when you reach the four years you won't get a CID. However, if the school was stupid and didn't put the reasons in the contract, you will get a CID. That is why you hear about people covering for maternity leave or a jobsharer ending up with a CID. Everybody knew they were covering but the school wasn't clever enough to write it into a contract to protect themselves.

Fourthly, the hours of the CID are the hours you held in the fourth year (unless some of those are temporary!)

As you will see from the above, a wide range of outcomes is possible to the individual cases mentioned. It is impossible to be more specific than that in giving advice unless someone has a copy of the contracts at the source of the issue.

theLuggage

Godge wrote: »

First point, entitlements under the Fixed Term Act are personal and therefore depend on the circumstances of the individual meaning it is very hard to have clear and consistent rules as there are a large number of different situations.

Very true, which is why you should talk to your industrial relations officer - they should know all the ins and outs for your case.

Secondly, you must have four years continuous service. A break for the summer sometimes does and sometimes does not constitute a break in service. Most of the time, not being paid for the summer doesn't mean a break in service. However, if the previous service before the summer was casual in nature, it may be a break in service. The law on this is not fully developed but there was an interesting case on the labour court website about seasonal workers.

Also true, I think it depends on whether there is an intention of bringing you back after the summer as well.

Thirdly, at the time you qualify for a CID (after four years), you must not be covering for someone else. So if you are covering for half a jobsharer, a career break, maternity leave etc. when you reach the four years you won't get a CID. However, if the school was stupid and didn't put the reasons in the contract, you will get a CID. That is why you hear about people covering for maternity leave or a jobsharer ending up with a CID. Everybody knew they were covering but the school wasn't clever enough to write it into a contract to protect themselves.

Just to clarify you can have some of someone else's hours but should have some of your own too to qualify for CID. There have been adjudication rulings though where the claimant had no hours of their own and they were still awarded CID - I have heard about these reasons that can be stated but to be honest I was in this position and reasons in a contract were never mentioned as argument for/against awarding CID.

Fourthly, the hours of the CID are the hours you held in the fourth year (unless some of those are temporary!)

Not true - temporary hours can be included depending as you say on individual circumstances.

As you will see from the above, a wide range of outcomes is possible to the individual cases mentioned. It is impossible to be more specific than that in giving advice unless someone has a copy of the contracts at the source of the issue.

.

Prof252

I really hope Mazda2 doesn't mind me asking a similar question to my own case.

My French comes from a secondment (the man of whom has actually moved on and is highly unlikely to return ever). My English was an add on - I was required for it.


So, can I fight with my principal for a CID after year 4 for both subjects?

rainbowtrout

Prof252 wrote: »

I really hope Mazda2 doesn't mind me asking a similar question to my own case.

My French comes from a secondment (the man of whom has actually moved on and is highly unlikely to return ever). My English was an add on - I was required for it.


So, can I fight with my principal for a CID after year 4 for both subjects?

Is he still officially on secondment? What do you mean exactly by 'he has moved on'? Like has he taken a permanent job with the Dept or something?

It's not a case of applying for a CID for subjects, CIDs are awarded for hours, so if you are there for four years and the hours are your own you should get a CID. The French part isn't as clear as we don't know the whole situation.


It used to be a bit more clear cut, the hours must be your own for four years to get the CID, no maternities, no secondments etc, but as you can see from the posts above that's not exactly the case.

Prof252

To the very best of my knowledge he is still officially on secondment. He is the principal of a new school elsewhere, one which I have been to in fact and is going from strength to strength.

Funnily, according to my contract my French comes from him. He has in fact been gone for 5 years now as two teachers were in the French post previous to me, but moved onto other things, so I was interviewed and got the position. The English part of my contract was an add on, I am needed for it.

Appreciate opinions!

rainbowtrout

I don't understand how he could be the principal of another school and still on secondment in your school. I was under the impression that he was on secondment for doing inservice type work or working with the PDST or something like that.

Unless he's acting principal in that school while the principal is on secondment to another position. It sounds a bit odd.

Prof252

It's an unusual one. I could never get any solid answers from this. The best I can make from it is due to the fact that it's a new school under a VEC they're perhaps doing a trial period until he has all 6 years gone through exams, it's a possibility. The school is new and hasn't existed before. I always expect with every year that he'll hand in his resignation to my school but hasn't done so to date. That's the conundrum I'm in ...