deer management

staghunter

i'm just wondering is there many lads on this forum that hunt by the theory that you take the weaker and older animals or is it just a case of shot what you see.i hear alot of lads talking about shooting prickets and three to four year old stags which are a long long way from maturity which according to every deer mangement tecnigue is wrong.i haven't been shooting deer long but i have been stalking and watching deer for agood number of years and i find it so annoying that ninety percent of hunters will shoot any animal they see rather than look for a suitable cull animal.where im based we have a great population of red deer its not a very big population but theres some animals in it that would make amazing throphys if given the chance an also pass on there superior genes to future herds and in turn make a healtier stronger heard of deer.why is there so many lads out there that consider them selves geniune hunters when they just go out and shoot the first animal they see an in turn probably damage a deer population deer by deer.im sure if geniune stalkers that hunt in an area with other genuine stalkers surely they could come to some deer management agreement

Birdnuts

I suppose its human nature to fancy the best lookin animals in a herd - but I would agree that this is the wrong thing to do and has long-term negative implications for the genetic quality of populations. Indeed this has already been proven with respect to the days of uncontrolled trophy hunting of species such as elephant, buffalo etc.

As for myself I could be desribed as pot hunter/vermin controller so I'm not into taking out the finiest lookin animal in any case.:)

landkeeper

good post and it'll be interesting to read the replies
proper deer management is hard if not nigh on impossible where you have multiple land owners and many pieces of land, syndicates of shooters all vying for trophy heads is also a recipe for disaster as far as genetic management is concerned .

Birdnuts

Its also probably no accident that currently the finest/heaviest Red Deer Stags in Europe are found in places like the Carpathian Mtns where natural predators like wolves, bears etc. naturally cull the weakest/sickest specimens which in turn ensures only the best genes get to breed:)

Tackleberrywho

I normally shoot the tastiest looking, but if I see a lame animal I shoot it.
If i see a deformed animal I shoot it.

If there is a pricket of a buck/stag I shoot the pricket as they are lighter and taste nicer.

Most guys I know who shoot deer are the same.
Nobody wants an animal just to mince, we all love our steak


I have a herd on my neighbours farm.
I shoot a big male every 4-5 years just to stir things up0 a bit.
Otherwise I only shoot prickets and the odd (and I mean odd Doe)
As the Does are the herd.

Shoot all the Does and herd disappears quick

And that is my 2 Cents

tfox

Having been taught by my cousin on all things deer related, deer management has very much been instilled in me, much to my frustration when I started out as I wanted to shoot every1 I saw.

We're lucky enough to have long term permission on a lot of land where we can excercise a deer managment plan for the better of the herd, head quality and our stalking.

As stated in another thread it is very hard for the average stalker who mighten't have sole rights on the land to pass up on taking an animal with an average head on the basis that if he doesn't shoot it someone else will.

kieran1141

another guy and myself shoot together and never shoot big stags, doe,s or fawns, all prickets plus a few fawns if they are big enough at the end of season, that is on 29 permissions plus a few section 42,s, told the ranger we dont shoot stags or doe,s only if sick or injured , ranger said this is great leaving a good healthy hear on the lands, only ever shot 1 big stag, all the rest are eating animals. seems to work for us with no shortage of deer.

Deerspotter

Good OP, I agree very much with you. I have said a few times that shooting a six pointer is a sin, they never taste good and they will be a trophy next year.

I have been in well managed deer herds and badly managed deer herds. The difference is that on a badly managed area, there are LOADS of hinds and there is no real rut. You see crap stags holding 10 hinds, which should NEVER happen. In a well-managed herd, you see the bad heads on the edges waiting for an opportunity, but not holding any hinds. You see many trophy heads, with groups of hinds, good fighting and whistling. These areas are getting harder to find!

Shoot your trophy at the end of October and not before, so he can pass on the good genes. Shoot the Shiite heads early October to get them out of the gene pool.

In my opinion, you should not be able to shoot stags in the October at all, it is not sporting. I can whistle a stag to within 50m of me on the road! How hard is that??

If you want sport, stags should only be in season in February - which is when you NEVER even see them anyways!!! That would separate the hunters / stalkers from the chancers.

Deer management is SO important and a skill that seems to be missing so much. I hold my tongue when I read about what goes on, on this forum and see photos of animals that should not have been shot at that time of year. I know human nature and I know temptation. I understand the attitude of "If I don't shoot it now, I am just leaving it for the poacher!" There is no easy solution to this. In general, I think people agree with deer management, but in practise it is just too damn unreal for most people to activate it. For this, I blame the poacher.

Tackleberrywho

Going to see if I can bag a nice pricket today.
I shoot 1 deer on average from my local herd per year.
The numbers are constant, there was at least 7 fawns in the herd I was looking at yesterday.

Had the pricket turned to face me long enough I would have bagged him.
I only shot 2 Big bucks on this herd in 12 years, one in 2000 and one in 2005.

I am due one any day now, but they are a big bastard and almost impossible drag on my own (corn fed )

I shot a 7 pointer in Dublin recently, I know there is a bigger Sika Stag on the same hill, I saw him and still hear him.

Do I purposely go out to shoot trophy's?
Hell No.
€600 for a mount is much better spend buying ammo for the season for all my firearms.

Prickets taste so good, nice marbling on the meat and cuts out well.
I don't shoot old Doe's/Hinds for the same reason I don't shoot big smelly stags/bucks.

If there is a big Buck/Stag in October there will be his be-iatches around too and last years prickets will be pushed out

staghunter

thanks for your oppinions lads thought there would be alot more oppinions on this topic.its a shame more stalkers wouldn't take it upon themselves to try and improve the quality of deer in ireland with some sort of a deer management plan it has to start with hunters

FISMA

staghunter wrote: »

...hunters when they just go out and shoot the first animal they see an in turn probably damage a deer population deer

If it is any consolation stagHunter, and indeed I share your concern, the experts I have spoken to claim that you can take 40% of the herd without affecting the population, so to speak.

That is, deer are such prolific breeders, a 40% cull keeps a net zero population growth.

This is a problem in Ireland. In the states, we are severely limited by both time and tags.

In many states, rifle season is but a few days, if at all.

Imagine dropping a stag only to find it riddled with pneumonia and having to go get another tag. The state is great with issuing new tags, but don't even think about shooting another till you have it on you.

Also, in PA, if you have two tags, and two deer present themselves, you cannot shoot both. You must have a tag on one before you shoot the other. The second a deer hits the ground, your boots have to be walking to tag it.

By the way, the game keepers will be out, even in the middle of nowhere. I was out once ice fishing and was approached by the lads to ensure I only had my quota of tip-ups out. I still cannot believe they were out there.

Granted, Ireland doesn't have to get that strict, there aren't millions of hunters. But I think they're going to have to do something.

In the States, we put our names on lists for the State Troopers to call when a deer gets hit by a car. It's actually a coveted list and you'll have to get there within the hour.

The one good thing about the tags is that you do indeed wait for the best/better shot.

Grizzly 45

FWIW.
Shoot anything injured ,lame,or with headdress.IE wire ,rope,other garbage,etc stuck in the antlers or "corkscrews" which are very poor antlers on sight.They are either suffering,will suffer or very poor genetics.

If you are pot hunting,take one prickett prefably a weak one for the freezer.That should see you through to November when the hinds and calves come online.

Use the rut time to keep en eye out for any of the above two lads,they will still show up fancying their chances,but otherwise let the main stags alone[unless you have somone paying for a trophy animal].Anyway,who wants to gut ,transport and deal with a stag in full rut??Smelly work!;)
After the rut if you want a head for the mantle piece then is fine.
Personally I want old stags that are getting past their potential and have added to the gene pool.

Nov onwards you have the hinds and calves then it gets intresting.
The continent ,you have a quota to fulfil for each let.That also includes roadkill in the cull figures.Somone flattens a deer in your let,thats considerd as good as you shooting it.Here we dont have that bar Coilte.

Take out anything that looks like a weak calf,injured,abandoned etc.
Hinds anything that looks like it is getting past breeding or a nice young one for the freezer which should see you through to the end of the season.By then anyway they will be getting through their winter fat reserves and will be pretty tough to chew on.

BTW does anyone feed their beasts here in cold weather or Winter??
IE lug a few bales of hay out to somplace where only deer could get to them.A good way of doing a head count and seeing who is around if you cover the bales with trail cams.

sika1

I've read these posts with interest. First off deer management only works where you have sole access to your shooting. Large syndicates do not work, there is too much competition for animals.

The next problem is poaching. If there are roads running through or adjacent to the shoot, large mature animals will be targeted first. Game dealers pay by weight.

I see most here would shoot for the pot and not touch does. So why is there not an explosion in the population of animals on the shoots. It is the culling of does that limits the size of the deer herd. If your shooting a farmers land he won't be too impressed if the number of deer on the property are rising rather than falling. Naturally lads want to conserve the numbers of deer going forward but you have to be so careful not to leave the way open for poachers to have a field day at your expense

iwsf

you all have valid points but in the case of a syndicate Sika1 is unfortunately spot on. Deer management will not work. If you see a nice stag / buck and decide to leave him alone for the reasons explained above , there will always be somebody to shoot him. Sad but true. If by any chance members of syndicate come to an agreement to manage properly the herd , all their hard work could go down the drain if they loose the lease to another syndicate that pays Coillte more.
Deer management in my opinion only works when you have exclusive rights to a large piece of land.

Tackleberrywho

sika1 wrote: »

I've read these posts with interest. First off deer management only works where you have sole access to your shooting. Large syndicates do not work, there is too much competition for animals.

The next problem is poaching. If there are roads running through or adjacent to the shoot, large mature animals will be targeted first. Game dealers pay by weight.

I see most here would shoot for the pot and not touch does. So why is there not an explosion in the population of animals on the shoots. It is the culling of does that limits the size of the deer herd. If your shooting a farmers land he won't be too impressed if the number of deer on the property are rising rather than falling. Naturally lads want to conserve the numbers of deer going forward but you have to be so careful not to leave the way open for poachers to have a field day at your expense

Other than I, Nobody has permission to shoot Deer on any of my permissions. The herds expand, but not to rediculous levels. I shoot more when there are more and less when there are.

I can not account for poaching pot hunters, but there is not a game dealer in at least 50 miles

sika1

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Other than I, Nobody has permission to shoot Deer on any of my permissions. The herds expand, but not to rediculous levels. I shoot more when there are more and less when there are.

I can not account for poaching pot hunters, but there is not a game dealer in at least 50 miles

Ah Tackleberry poaching pothunters wouldn't be a huge problem. Its the commercial poachers that you should be worrying about. As for no game dealers within 50 miles, if one has enough carcases then mileage won't make any difference.

Tackleberrywho

sika1 wrote: »

Ah Tackleberry poaching pothunters wouldn't be a huge problem. Its the commercial poachers that you should be worrying about. As for no game dealers within 50 miles, if one has enough carcases then mileage won't make any difference.

Poachers are opportunists, they would have far too much hassle locating them.

And Don't normally drive into farmers yards that keep Gard dogs

BryanL

I think a big problem is a lot of guys want to manage Deer, so they can harvest Trophy heads. But don't shoot hinds.
Surely maintaining a large herd is just inviting on poachers?
If you keep hind numbers low it also increases competition between stags, promoting a healthy herd?
Bryan

Bodacious

Saw a guy with two stags,and a small lad one 14 pointer and one inbetween, red deer stag in full rutt, he had them proper up on full display on openback truck?! Is this legal if kids etc pulled in to the shop?! A small cover maybe?!

14 pointer looked magnificient in fairness

Grizzly 45

No law on how you must transport your deer.But common courtsey would suggest you dont sling it over your jeep bonnet and drive into town with it.INMHO good for kids to see that their dinner was actually once an animal,not a sterile piece of meat wrapped in cellophane that mommy buys in a supermarket....

And cue the howls of outrage posts....:rolleyes:

Deerspotter

I totally agree Griz. I heard in the USA they cannot say that milk comes from cows, as kids wouldn't drink it anymore!