Traffic lights for pedestrians - how does it work in Ireland?

CiniO

Here is a video from other country.

Pretty major road through the city (double carriage way) with speed limit increased from 50 to 70km/h.

Traffic lights controlled pedestrian crossing. Cars have green light. Pedestrians - red.

For some unknown reason - one of the cars, even there is a green light for cars, stops to let pedestrians cross the road.
Other cars don't stop, and only a miracle saves pedestrians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5ujLhDkNh4

It's in Poland, and if pedestrians were hit by that Punto, it would certainly be pedestrians fault - no blame on Punto driver.
Probably driver that stopped and encouraged pedestrians to cross could face some kind of charges as well.

If such thing happened in Ireland, and pedestrian would be injured or killed. Who's fault would that be?

I ask, as I heard few times here, that no matter what if car hits pedestrian, it's always drivers fault in Ireland.

ardmacha

The road is marked with stripes in that video, this would only be used in Ireland for a crossing where the pedestrian had right of way.

CiniO

ardmacha wrote: »

The road is marked with stripes in that video, this would only be used in Ireland for a crossing where the pedestrian had right of way.

Even if pedestrian has red light, and car has green?

sh1tstirrer

Most pedestrians in Ireland don't need pedestrian crossings, jay walkers comes to mind :mad:

aujopimur

CiniO wrote: »

Even if pedestrian has red light, and car has green?

Yes, funny is'nt it, even when you're wrong you're right.

challengemaster

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Most pedestrians in Ireland don't need pedestrian crossings, jay walkers comes to mind :mad:

Considering there's no such thing as J-walking in Ireland, as its not illegal to cross a road where there isn't a marked out crossing

cyclopath2001

CiniO wrote: »

For some unknown reason - one of the cars, even there is a green light for cars, stops to let pedestrians cross the road.
If such thing happened in Ireland, and pedestrian would be injured or killed. Who's fault would that be?

I ask, as I heard few times here, that no matter what if car hits pedestrian, it's always drivers fault in Ireland.

Well, obviously, you're not allowed hit a pedestrain even if they should not be crosding at that time. But many drivers don't know that once a pedrestrian is crossing, the driver must give way. It's a separate matter if the pedestrian is crossing illegally i.e within 15 metres of a crossing or when the signal is against them, but they still have right of way once they're on the rosd.

Liability in an accident is yet another matter. Drivers are expected to anticipate both legal and illegal crossing, but pedestrians could have damages reduced if their behaviour was unreasonabke.

slimjimmc

You're required to yield to pedestrians on the road regardless of whether they should be there or not. Basically the law views pedestrians as requiring extra protection because they're slower and squishier and therefore the rules are made in such a way as to deter drivers from knocking them out of the way.

MugMugs

Hit a pedestrian then you're in the wrong....

... mainly because it's bad manners.

CiniO

Anyone could give any quotation about it from Road traffic law?

CiniO

MugMugs wrote: »

Hit a pedestrian then you're in the wrong....

... mainly because it's bad manners.

Even if I'm driving at 120km/h on motorway, and suddenly pedestrian runs across motorway straight under my wheels.
Assume there is nothing I could do, and pedestrian is killed.

Does that mean that I'll be prosecuted for killing a pedestrian? (if someone running across the motorway could be classified as pedestrian).

wee truck big driver

the normal procedure is for the pedestrian to press the button look around see nothing coming and walks across, you then drive down and lights are red and nobody about. or you are sitting at the red light pedestrians crossing there light goes red they ignore it keep crossing and you are sitting there with a green light and a stream of pedestrians crossing

MugMugs

CiniO wrote: »

Even if I'm driving at 120km/h on motorway, and suddenly pedestrian runs across motorway straight under my wheels.
Assume there is nothing I could do, and pedestrian is killed.

Does that mean that I'll be prosecuted for killing a pedestrian? (if someone running across the motorway could be classified as pedestrian).

Ummmm, No...

Clearly this going to go down the pedantic avenue so I will re phrase it.

Hit a Pedestrian in means where you should have been driving with due care and able to react in time and avoiding any extreme circumstances then, you're liable.

Bigcheeze

In Ireland, a green light means, proceed if its safe to do so.

The Punto driver is a bad driver. A good driver would have noticed 1) the other car stopping, 2) the fact that he car was stopped at a pedestrian crossing and would at a minimum have eased off the gas in anticipation of pedestrians.

challengemaster

Bigcheeze wrote: »

In Ireland, a green light means, proceed if its safe to do so.

The Punto driver is a bad driver. A good driver would have noticed 1) the other car stopping, 2) the fact that he car was stopped at a pedestrian crossing and would at a minimum have eased off the gas in anticipation of pedestrians.

He's already explained that the car legally didn't have to stop, the driver did nothing wrong. The pedestrians are the ones at fault, and in fairness, it should be the same here too. Might take a bit more care when walking out in front of people if they were liable for it after too.

Bigcheeze

challengemaster wrote: »

He's already explained that the car legally didn't have to stop, the driver did nothing wrong. The pedestrians are the ones at fault, and in fairness, it should be the same here too. Might take a bit more care when walking out in front of people if they were liable for it after too.

What are you saying ? the driver was within his rights to knock down the skittles?

You're a pretty clueless driver if that's what you believe.

challengemaster

Bigcheeze wrote: »

What are you saying ? the driver was within his rights to knock down the skittles?

You're a pretty clueless driver if that's what you believe.

CiniO wrote: »

It's in Poland, and if pedestrians were hit by that Punto, it would certainly be pedestrians fault - no blame on Punto driver.
Probably driver that stopped and encouraged pedestrians to cross could face some kind of charges as well.

And you clearly can't read. :rolleyes:

Bigcheeze

challengemaster wrote: »

And you clearly can't read. :rolleyes:

He asked what the position would be in Ireland. I told him. The Punto driver is a crap driver regardless of location.

sh1tstirrer

challengemaster wrote: »

Considering there's no such thing as J-walking in Ireland, as its not illegal to cross a road where there isn't a marked out crossing

Unless there is a car coming

challengemaster

Bigcheeze wrote: »

He asked what the position would be in Ireland. I told him. The Punto driver is a crap driver regardless of location.

Yes, I see that, but you also seem to be missing what I've just pointed out to you, or you're ignoring that you've been proven wrong.

You drive to the laws of the country, and considering the local rules are as Cinio have described, then stopping while there's a green light could easily result in a pile up.

Either way it's funny that you're calling me clueless

Bigcheeze

challengemaster wrote: »

Yes, I see that, but you also seem to be missing what I've just pointed out to you, or you're ignoring that you've been proven wrong.

You drive to the laws of the country, and considering the local rules are as Cinio have described, then stopping while there's a green light could easily result in a pile up.

Either way it's funny that you're calling me clueless

Your point seems to be that the driver doesn't need to pay due care and attention to his surroundings because he's not breaking the law. It's the typical high horse attitude of inexperienced drivers such as yourself.

CiniO

Bigcheeze wrote: »

The Punto driver is a bad driver. A good driver would have noticed 1) the other car stopping, 2) the fact that he car was stopped at a pedestrian crossing and would at a minimum have eased off the gas in anticipation of pedestrians.

You are right about both, that good driver should have notice why the other car stopped, and should have slowed down and be ready to stop if pedestrians cross, even he had green light.

On the other hand - legally he was all-right. He has a green light, which entitles him to go. (In Poland of course. In Ireland it seems to be different)

Over couple of hundred of thousand kilometres I've driven in Poland, I've never seen such situation in real, that car stopped to give way to pedestrians, while he had green light, and pedestrians had red.
I'm not surprised then Punto driver didn't expect it.

Other thing as well is that it's a main road (double carriage way) with increased speed limit to 70 from 50km/h. And generally everyone drives there even faster probably around 100km/h.

Northern Monkey

challengemaster wrote: »

Considering there's no such thing as J-walking in Ireland, as its not illegal to cross a road where there isn't a marked out crossing

There is a "crack down" on jaywalking in Dublin at the minute

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0929/breaking41.html

challengemaster

Northern Monkey wrote: »

There is a "crack down" on jaywalking in Dublin at the minute

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0929/breaking41.html

There's no law against it though AFAIK, so that's nothing but a heap of bull really.

CiniO

MugMugs wrote: »

Ummmm, No...

Clearly this going to go down the pedantic avenue so I will re phrase it.

Hit a Pedestrian in means where you should have been driving with due care and able to react in time and avoiding any extreme circumstances then, you're liable.

That's still not clear for me.

I just wanted to find out where's the limit.

You might meet some suiciders which run's straigh under your wheels and there is nothing you can do.
On the other hand, you might see a pedestrian crossing on red light (you have green), and run him over intentionally.
In my opinion, in first case car driver shouldn't be liable, while in the second one definitely should.
But I just don't know where is a break point for that liability?

Few years back it happened to me in Galway that I had close encounter with pedestrian.
I was trying to turn right by Cathedral towards Catherdral parking. There was a huge traffic oncoming, so I was waiting and waiting.
Finally there was a small gap (really small) in oncoming cars, on the other side of the junction there is a traffic lights controlled pedestrian crossing.
It was red for pedestrian and green for cars. I didn't see any pedestrians anyway.
Whenever the gap was there, I just floored it, to make it safely before next car was coming. Whenever I reached pedestrian crossing, I still had green light, but there was a guy running through it. I slowed down, turned a bit right to avoid him, and beeped the horn so he could see me and run away.
I all worked, and nothing happened. Except that he chase me after that and probably wanted to punch me in the face.

Anyway - at that moment I thought I was right, and he was wrong, as he was running through pedestrian crossing without looking at the red light.
I had green light.

Anyway after I was reading about it on boards, it seems that it was more of my fault than his.

Northern Monkey

challengemaster wrote: »

There's no law against it though AFAIK, so that's nothing but a heap of bull really.

You are probably right, but a mate of mine got his details taken by a guard (looked to be just out of templemore) for crossing the middle of the street before.

JerCotter7

Bigcheeze wrote: »

Your point seems to be that the driver doesn't need to pay due care and attention to his surroundings because he's not breaking the law. It's the typical high horse attitude of inexperienced drivers such as yourself.

What the hell are you on about? Where does a high horse come into this? You completely missed his point. It's nothing to do with paying attention to his surroundings.

sh1tstirrer

challengemaster wrote: »

There's no law against it though AFAIK, so that's nothing but a heap of bull really.

Jay walking is jay walking whether there is a law against it or not. This is a definition of jay walking

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/jaywalker

And you say it doesn't exist in Ireland :rolleyes:

bladebrew

it seems wrong to have traffic lights and the pedestrian crossing markings on the road,
it needs orange bulbs flashing on either side with the pedestrian crossing markings, OR traffic lights with white lines across the road,

if the punto did that in ireland with those markings on the road he would be in a heap of trouble,

challengemaster

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Jay walking is jay walking whether there is a law against it or not. This is a definition of jay walking

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/jaywalker

And you say it doesn't exist in Ireland :rolleyes:

You seem to have missed the "illegally" in the link you posted - you can't do something illegal if it's not illegal to do it.

Which brings me back to my point about garda enforcement - they can't enforce something that doesn't exist.

Twin-go

CiniO wrote: »

Here is a video from other country.

Pretty major road through the city (double carriage way) with speed limit increased from 50 to 70km/h.

Traffic lights controlled pedestrian crossing. Cars have green light. Pedestrians - red.

For some unknown reason - one of the cars, even there is a green light for cars, stops to let pedestrians cross the road.
Other cars don't stop, and only a miracle saves pedestrians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5ujLhDkNh4

It's in Poland, and if pedestrians were hit by that Punto, it would certainly be pedestrians fault - no blame on Punto driver.
Probably driver that stopped and encouraged pedestrians to cross could face some kind of charges as well.

If such thing happened in Ireland, and pedestrian would be injured or killed. Who's fault would that be?

I ask, as I heard few times here, that no matter what if car hits pedestrian, it's always drivers fault in Ireland.

The Punto seems to be breaking before he come through the crossing. Maybe he had bad breaks. The Toyota with the Poznan plates seems like a much newer car (better breaks?). Still bad driving by Punto driver (too fast).
As this was a pedestrian crossing they should have been more aware green light or not.

In Ireland you could get pedestrians crossing 10 yards from the crossing or even no where near the crossing. I think the owness is still on the driver no matter how careless and at fault the pedestrian is.

One thing I noticed while driving in Poland is that drivers in general are technically better than Irish they are far more aggressive.

CiniO

Twin-go wrote: »

The Punto seems to be breaking before he come through the crossing. Maybe he had bad breaks. The Toyota with the Poznan plates seems like a much newer car (better breaks?).

Ohh come on.
Toyota was going slowly, and probably started braking much earlier.
Punto had quite big speed, and started braking very late.

Still bad driving by Punto driver (too fast).
As this was a pedestrian crossing they should have been more aware green light or not.

You said you've driven in Poland, so you should know that barely anyone would slow down if they have green light.

In Ireland you could get pedestrians crossing 10 yards from the crossing or even no where near the crossing. I think the owness is still on the driver no matter how careless and at fault the pedestrian is.

One thing I noticed while driving in Poland is that drivers in general are technically better than Irish they are far more aggressive.

Technically better - I agree.
Aggressive - maybe.

One thing I'm sure for certain - there is a bit of cult of "right of way".
On driving lessons this seems to be the main topic. Everyone on driving test if properly checked if he knows exactly who has the right of way in any possible situation.
Most drivers know very well then rules who should go first, and sadly they enforce it strongly.
In general if someone is driving on the main road, and has right of way, he won't even slow down but just go full speed.
That causes a lot's of accidents sadly.
And that might be the reason why you think they are more aggressive.

Iwannahurl

CiniO wrote: »

Here is a video from other country.

Pretty major road through the city (double carriage way) with speed limit increased from 50 to 70km/h.

Traffic lights controlled pedestrian crossing. Cars have green light. Pedestrians - red.

For some unknown reason - one of the cars, even there is a green light for cars, stops to let pedestrians cross the road.
Other cars don't stop, and only a miracle saves pedestrians.

It's in Poland, and if pedestrians were hit by that Punto, it would certainly be pedestrians fault - no blame on Punto driver.
Probably driver that stopped and encouraged pedestrians to cross could face some kind of charges as well.

If such thing happened in Ireland, and pedestrian would be injured or killed. Who's fault would that be?

I ask, as I heard few times here, that no matter what if car hits pedestrian, it's always drivers fault in Ireland.

Csesc.

Some observations.

1. IMO a dual carriageway with a 70 km/h speed limit is not a suitable place for such a crossing. Or to put it a different way, an environment with a significant level of pedestrian traffic is not a suitable place for a dual carriageway with a 70 km/h speed limit.

2. There was a group of people trying to cross. Were they running for a bus perhaps? Why the urgency? Why the apparent pressure to cross despite the obvious presence of fast-moving traffic?

3. Because of where the video clip starts it's not possible to determine why the driver stopped. Was it to "encourage" or allow the pedestrians to cross? Or was it because they were already on the road? If the latter, see #2 above.

4. The term "jaywalking" is often used in Ireland and on Boards. I have been told by a PSV driver (who is required to be aware of these things) that there is indeed a law obliging pedestrians to behave with due care and attention. Were a pedestrian to be hit by a car in such circumstances in Ireland, I suspect at least some of the liability would be attributed to them. http://www.injury-compensation.ie/pedestrian-accident-claims

5. It also needs to be asked whether the signalised crossing is providing an appropriate level of service for pedestrians (and bus users, if they use the crossing to get to the bus stop). There was a controversial case in the US recently where a mother was charged with the 'vehicular homicide' of one of her children after he was struck and killed by a one-eyed driver who had been drinking prior to the incident and who had previous motoring convictions. The woman's crime: she crossed the road with her three children at an unapproved spot near a bus-stop, opting to take the more direct and 'natural' route across the road from her residence rather than walk with them to use the pedestrian crossing nearly 500 metres up the road (which would obviously mean a c. 1 km 'detour' just to cross the road to/from the bus-stop).

A MOTHER WHO was crossing a road with her 4-year-old son when he was fatally struck by a drunk driver has been convicted of vehicular homicide, after a jury decided that she had been “jaywalking” when the incident occurred.

In April 2010, 30-year-old Raquel Nelson from Marietta, Georgia, USA, was crossing the road with her three children when she, her son and her daughter were hit by a car. The boy later died of his injuries, while the girl and mother suffered only minor injuries.

The driver, Jerry L Guy, had been drinking alcohol and taking painkillers on the day of the collision. He was also partially blind in one eye.

After the collision, Guy fled the scene.

http://www.thejournal.ie/mother-convicted-of-homicide-after-drunk-driver-killed-her-child-183001-Jul2011

http://uclaextensionppp.wordpress.com/tag/raquel-nelson/

complicit

Polish drivers technically better than Irish ?
They are certainly more accomplished at tailgating and overtaking on blind corners in their
untaxed Audi A6 .
Single vision collisions , they excel at that also , lol .

swizzle123

CiniO wrote: »

Even if I'm driving at 120km/h on motorway, and suddenly pedestrian runs across motorway straight under my wheels.
Assume there is nothing I could do, and pedestrian is killed.

Does that mean that I'll be prosecuted for killing a pedestrian? (if someone running across the motorway could be classified as pedestrian).

But law states Pedestrians are not allowed on a motorway? So they would be in the wrong?

CiniO

swizzle123 wrote: »

But law states Pedestrians are not allowed on a motorway? So they would be in the wrong?

Does the law not state they are not allowed to cross the road, when red light is displayed for them?

cyclopath2001

CiniO wrote: »

Does the law not state they are not allowed to cross the road, when red light is displayed for them?

Ok so they get fined for jay walking, but you can still be held liable.

There have been cases of kids who impaled themselves on railings while trespassing, the property owner was still liable.

-Chris-

@everyone - can we do this thread without the sniping or "Polish drivers are better than Irish drivers" (or vice versa) please!

Cabaal

challengemaster wrote: »

Considering there's no such thing as J-walking in Ireland, as its not illegal to cross a road where there isn't a marked out crossing

Yes there is and yes it is illegal and you can be fined for it,
Problem is it just isn't enforced

I believe the fine is 50e at present...since the euro change over, I've look into it and while the law exists the Gov has never realized numbers for amounts of people fined...probably because its not been enforced and because there isn't any numbers because of this.

I can't find a recent law reform report but here's a bit from 1996 report,

under s.102 of the Road Traffic Act, 1961, the sanction for jay-walking is a fine not exceeding £20 for a first offence, and for a second or subsequent offence a fine not exceeding £50, except that, where the offence is a third or subsequent offence in any period of 12 consecutive months, the sanction is a fine not exceeding £50 or, at the discretion of the court, a term of imprisonment not exceeding three months or both such fine and imprisonment;

There's a misconception in Ireland that such a law doesn't exist on the books and that jay-walking is an "American thing" when it comes to people getting fined, but such laws exists for most European country's.

Twin-go

complicit wrote: »

Polish drivers technically better than Irish ?
They are certainly more accomplished at tailgating and overtaking on blind corners in their
untaxed Audi A6 .
Single vision collisions , they excel at that also , lol .

In terms of technically better I refer to the fact that they have to deal with far more variations in conditions through the year. Snow, ice, rain, heat etc. A couple of bad winters here and most of us Irish struggle -understandibly.

As for the rest of your statement :rolleyes:.

Twin-go

CiniO wrote: »

Does the law not state they are not allowed to cross the road, when red light is displayed for them?

There are no lights/pedestrian crossings on a moterway. If there are its not a motorway.

markpb

Cabaal wrote: »

There's a misconception in Ireland that such a law doesn't exist on the books and that jay-walking is an "American thing" when it comes to people getting fined, but such laws exists for most European country's.

That's not entirely true. A pedestrian can cross anywhere they like except at traffic lights (when they must wait for the green light) or within 50 feet of zebra crossings (when they must not cause a driver to brake suddenly). Crossing anywhere else, as long as it's safe, is perfectly legal.


S.I. No. 329/1979: ROAD TRAFFIC (SIGNS) (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) REGULATIONS, 1979.

within a pedestrian crossing complex,—
( a ) a pedestrian shall not be on any part of the roadway other than the pedestrian crossing

Road Traffic General Bye-Laws, 1964

34. A pedestrian shall exercise care and take all reasonable precautions to avoid causing danger or inconvenience to traffic and other pedestrians, and, when at a road junction controlled by traffic lights, shall comply with bye-law 13 of these bye-laws in so far as it applies to a driver facing lights at which there is no stop line.

36 (2) At a road junction where traffic is controlled either by traffic lights or by a pointsman, a pedestrian shall cross the roadway only when traffic going in the direction in which the pedestrian intends to cross is permitted (by the lights or pointsman) to proceed, and shall yield the right of way to any traffic turning in front of the pedestrian.

37. A pedestrian about to cross a roadway at a place where pedestrian lights have been provided shall do so only when a lamp of the pedestrian lights facing him is lit and green.

38.—(1) On a roadway on which a zebra crossing has been provided a pedestrian shall not cross the roadway within 50 feet of the crossing except by the crossing.

(2) When a vehicle is approaching a zebra crossing a pedestrian shall not step on to that crossing if his action is likely to cause the driver either to brake suddenly or to swerve.

galwaycyclist

I did this once driving in Spain. Pissed off the drivers behind me. I came around a bend and there was a crossing with black and white stripes and people waiting to cross. In Ireland that would be a zebra crossing and I would be required to yield. There were also green traffic lights but instinct had already taken over and I stopped.

Blazer

you wouldn't dream of crossing a road in poland unless the pedestrian lights were green.
Not only will the drivers not slow down and frighten the life out of you but you'l be hit with an on the spot fine of 100 zlotys (about €25)..happened to one of the lads from work he couldn't believe it although he was wondering why no one was crossing the streets when no cars were coming..:)

Bigcheeze

Sc@recrow wrote: »

you wouldn't dream of crossing a road in poland unless the pedestrian lights were green.

The evidence in the video suggests otherwise