Advice re plans and QS

anjisbuild

Hi all, this is a fantastic forum and my limited knowledge of building has come from this site and a few magazines. Have planning for a 2 storey and hoping to start in the new year. Preparation wise, Im asking everyone I know who has built the pros and cons of their build, what they would do differently if they had the chance again and benefits of TF over Block and vice versa. Also not sure if I should use a QS to run up a bill of quantities for me - have been quoted 400EUR cash for this job. I would appreciate any info from seasoned and infinitely more knowledgeable people than myself on my build and maybe a bit of advice on whether or not to go with a QS - I appreciate all advice and comments. Thanks

BryanF

anjisbuild wrote: »

Hi all, this is a fantastic forum and my limited knowledge of building has come from this site and a few magazines. Have planning for a 2 storey and hoping to start in the new year. Preparation wise, Im asking everyone I know who has built the pros and cons of their build, what they would do differently if they had the chance again and benefits of TF over Block and vice versa. Also not sure if I should use a QS to run up a bill of quantities for me - have been quoted 400EUR cash for this job. I would appreciate any info from seasoned and infinitely more knowledgeable people than myself on my build and maybe a bit of advice on whether or not to go with a QS - I appreciate all advice and comments. Thanks

well, you have planning so the layouts fairly fixed!
why not put the master bedroom on the north and the en-suite on the south.. is the view out the front? also, there seems to be a bit of wasted space on the FF landing, i presume this will be rearranged to accommodate HP/MVHR room.. how come the windows on the south bedrooms are so small, was there a planning reason?
GF, should you consider being able to close of the sun room or will have you spec'd good glazing and detailing.

by all means use a QS (which i think is a good idea with money being such an issue with the banks and extras with builders) but more importantly really consider your building fabric, air-tightness and ventilation strategy. Are your current Eng's up to the job? are you just going to build to the bare Building regs? think about it like this houses built in 2005 can now apply for grants for extra insulation etc... the question should not be whether you build in timber of block but what standard of insulation,air-tightness, windows and structure will reduce your energy demand to a minimum..

muffler

Couple of posts above moved from the Live Self Build thread where they were a wee bit off topic

anjisbuild

Thanks for that Bryan, it was the inside I was thinking of making changes to as outside is fixed. had been thinking of moving the Master Bedroom south and didnt even really go as far as changing other windows to the south upstairs as planning dont really mind if I change windows to south (as there is nothing behind me) so when ready was going to ask the window company to suggest - will be going triple glazing all round and a very high spec in insulation. Im trying to get my build as close to passive standards as possible but the options are just overwhelming - from external insulation to insulation on the interior of the outer block to plasterboard and then there is of course the amount you put in. Re FF landing was kindof thinking of a huge massive press for winter clothes spare duvets etc - re MHRV I was thinking of putting it in garage which although it doesnt show on plans, will be insulated as well as the rest of the house.

Re TF versus blocks, what would you go with and why?

Muffler, thanks for moving me and I will jump back to other post when I eventually start.

Anyone know of a tried and tested QS to give a price on materials?

BryanF

anjisbuild wrote: »

Thanks for that Bryan, it was the inside I was thinking of making changes to as outside is fixed. had been thinking of moving the Master Bedroom south and didnt even really go as far as changing other windows to the south upstairs as planning dont really mind if I change windows to south (as there is nothing behind me) so when ready was going to ask the window company to suggest - will be going triple glazing all round and a very high spec in insulation. Im trying to get my build as close to passive standards as possible but the options are just overwhelming - from external insulation to insulation on the interior of the outer block to plasterboard and then there is of course the amount you put in. Re FF landing was kindof thinking of a huge massive press for winter clothes spare duvets etc - re MHRV I was thinking of putting it in garage which although it doesnt show on plans, will be insulated as well as the rest of the house.

Re TF versus blocks, what would you go with and why?

Muffler, thanks for moving me and I will jump back to other post when I eventually start.

Anyone know of a tried and tested QS to give a price on materials?

mvhr in garage silly idea, put it central in the house..
Is your eng upto detailing your 'near passive' build. from the drawings I've seen I doubt it..
timber is more expensive on paper but the good timber frame companies are worth every penny... this question imo often comes down to cost v grief.. (and brain washing.... 'isn't a concrete home an better built home' BS)
I have a few names in Cork let me know if you cant get someone more local and ill pM you

DOCARCH

Two comments:

I see an EnSuite off Bedroom 1 at ground floor. Would be better to try and incorporate a guest WC, if you can, at ground floor (in compliance with Part M). If you have visitors over, and they want to have a wee, not great sending them through a bedroom and/or upstairs.

I see winders on the stairs (the angled steps). As far as I am aware, these were 'banned' years ago? Or at least they are not encouraged and if they have to be provided there should only be one and it should be at the bottom of the stairs.

Gallant_JJ

I don't mean to be too harsh but it really feels like an engineer designed house. A good architect would have been a good start. Obviously I'm not familiar with the site but I can make some observations with regard to layout and aspect. May be worth tweaking the layout prior to commencement. You obviously have your head screwed on with regard to material, energy efficiency, shame that they layout may let you down.

- The main axis through your house, front door through to your main living spaces is under the bulkhead of the stairs.

- As previously mentioned, winders on the stairs, poor.

- The chimney breast is stuck on the west elevation of the lounge where there is potential for good evening light.

- Ensuite stuck on east side at first floor where there is potential for great morning light.

- Your lounge and study, I fear are going to be dark spaces.

- You should really increase the amount of fenestration on the south side.

DOCARCH

Have to agree with Gallant_JJ on all points.

The window sizes all round are miniscule, particularly to the south side. In addition there is south facing Sun Room with two small windows, a set of french doors and no roof lights? In reality, a dark house.

The idea of having all the living spaces interconnected/open plan is poor. Whoever did the drawings must have no kids?

BryanF

DOCARCH wrote: »

Two comments:

I see an EnSuite off Bedroom 1 at ground floor. Would be better to try and incorporate a guest WC,.

he has 2nd dr off utility

SBR

anjisbuild wrote: »

Also not sure if I should use a QS to run up a bill of quantities for me - have been quoted 400EUR cash for this job. I would appreciate any info from seasoned and infinitely more knowledgeable people than myself on my build and maybe a bit of advice on whether or not to go with a QS - I appreciate all advice and comments. Thanks

It is important to note that a QS's function in a self build is more than just running up a Bill of Quantities. A bill of Quantities is literally just measured quantities.

For example:
Do you require Preliminary budget Cost for your build before you start? This would give you a good idea of how much your build would cost and is also required from some Mortgage providers.

Do you want to determine the most economical build method whether it be TF, Blk, ICF etc. or are you just happy to choose one on other grounds and go with it regardless of cost?

Do you require a QS's input into the tender process? This is where a Bill of Quantities will be produced and submitted to all your tendering contractors. The QS will then compare tenders, negotiatie with the tenderers and recommend the most economically advantageous tenderer for your self build.

Do you want a detailed Estimate on your build thereby making you price aware and giving you the ability to properly negotiate with your builders/Tradesmen/material suppliers etc as you know what the cost of the work should be before any negotiations take place. By doing this you will then know for sure if you are getting a good deal or not!

Do you require a QS to track and negotiate variations which may occur on the job as your build goes on? Thereby keeping your building costs under control

The List goes on really!!! It is the case that a lot of self builders don't use any services provided by a QS, but if you really need to control costs I hope the above gives you a bit of food for thought!

DOCARCH

BryanF wrote: »

he has 2nd dr off utility

I see that now alright. I still think the layout in general is poor and clumsy.

A house is a big investment. I would suggest the OP, even if they wish to retain their engineer to carry through the project to completion, should engage an architect to look at the internal layouts of the house and see how it could be improved within the structure granted permission. Proposals (in the form of sketch plans) could then be brought back to the enginner to implement for construction.

This would be a relatively inexpensive excercise (maybe a couple of hundred euro) but would definitley add value to the house without increasing (in any substantial way) the cost of the build.

BryanF

+1 with DOC

anjisbuild

Thank you all so much for your input, I intend to take as much of it on board as I can. Bryan, would appreciate those names PMed and also tried and tested TF companies if you have them.
DOCARCH and Gallant JJ also thank you, never heard that about the stairs and if they are "banned" then they will not be going in as I have two young kiddies. Was actually thinking of getting an architect to make internal changes but again it comes to knowing people in the game. The house was designed by an engineer who is also someone I know and is against use of architects etc - also going through a 'bad patch' so difficult - wont be using friends and family again. I would really appreciate the names of some architects (like Dermot Bannon haha) to perhaps tweak the inside of the house.Please PM if you know of anyone or if either of you are in the job - thinking DOCARCH might be short for ARCHitect!!!!! Re windows, again was the choice of the engineer but the local council said as house is facing a field (my own), I can put whatever windows I want in the back (south facing).
SBR, thanks for that, was really only looking for cost estimates so I can scare the living daylights out of hubby when he sees real cost of building a house....me - Im prepared to live in something that is airtight and cosy without furniture for the next 5 years if I have to.

Thank you all again for advice, much appreciated.

BryanF

pm sent

sydthebeat

anjisbuild wrote: »

. The house was designed by an engineer ......................I would really appreciate the names of some architects to perhaps tweak the inside of the house.................

any architect worth his salt would simply scrap that initial design.

By right the process should have been reversed. the architect should have designed the building and the engineer then, in consultation with the architect, be allowed to tweek the design to suit elements of structure.

If docarch eloquently puts it, the design is clumsy.. then id go a step further and say that its unfinished.

The first floor bathroom / study are should be bedroom 3 is for a few reasons:
1. keeping all wet areas together on SE corner of house
2. allowing for a more symmetric first floor layout
all it needs is careful consideration of windows.

The kitchen open plan area is large enough so as not to require open access to the lounge. You would find that if kept this way the lounge would simply become a passing corridor from the living space to the front door. The lounge should be a separate room and have only 1 door access.
in doing this you can move the chimney to the south wall and have it located central in the dwelling, it will be hidden in a ward on FF and it will look a lot better aesthetically from the front.

The point as been made already about the winders, but there is scope to remedy that. A quarter landing turn on step 3 and step 10 / 11 would solve it. You need to get this solved to remedy the bulk head facing you when at the front door.

theres no need for a 215 wall on first floor, but thats probably just a drawing error.

does the first floor windows comply with ventilation regs??? ie 1/20 the floor area of the room? They seem a little tight.

you have scope to design a nice light feature on the west elevation in the living area. id either widen the french doors or incorprate another 675 mm glazing both sides and i would rise the ceiling here.

DOCARCH

sydthebeat wrote: »

any architect worth his salt would simply scrap that initial design.

Of course you're right Syd.

The only reason I suggested looking at/re-working the internal layouts is that the OP already has planning permission, so I was just trying to save them the cost of a new application but I suppose an application for ammendments/alterations to existing planning granted should not be ruled out (e.g. to at least get adequete windows to the front elevation).

If the OP hasn't run off with his/her tail between his/her legs (although they would appear to be taking on board the advice), it would good to see the elevations too.

sydthebeat

i agree docarch, i guess i was talking about everything being open to change.

its not a bad plan per say, at least the living spaces are in the right orientation

anjisbuild

No tail between my legs boys, Im sitting here in the computer having been unable to do so for last 20 odd hours as Dad had 74th birthday and have a 4 month old who feeds non stop. Anyway, the advice is fantastic, the more critical the better - bring it on. Sydthebeat, thanks for the great input, have read several of your posts before and Docarch, I had a nightmare getting planning - it took 2 years, several attempts, loads of money and even more patience so not really willing to go back. They did tell me though, and I might ask this again just to make sure, that re South elevation, I can do what I want with windows. Dont have the elevations at the moment and as I said my engineer is a bit 'off'. Met her today and she said the bank is about to pull the plug on her business so couldnt even ask her for the elevations - will download my plans from council and post them up tomorrow.

Also, Sydthebeat, thanks for the compliment on living spaces being on right side - that was my suggestion haha. BTW have a guy coming to see me to price passive windows and might get him to give a bit of advice on window positioning before trotting into the council.

THANK YOU all so much

Gallant_JJ

To be honest OP, i would consider a change of house type all together. Considering the plans are so poorly considered I can only imagine what the elevations are like. The floor plans are so poorly designed I think it would be a nigh on impossible task to re-jig the house successfully within the existing envelope.

This is the biggest and possibly the most important investment you will ever make, I'd urge you to see an architect, and for the sake of a couple of months you could achieve so much more.

Is there any decent views on the site?

anjisbuild

Is there any decent views on the site?[/QUOTE]

Oh I hope this is not the general opinion! Should have added that am building behind my parents in a field and had to stay with style of house ie old farmhouse. In the Kerry Coco planning guide this style of house can no longer be two rooms deep which is why I have the butterfly style roof as can be seen from elevations. This was actually something I did not want but after several discussions with Kerry Coco this is what was suggested. Kerry Coco have a brutal reputation and are not generous on granting planning so I took what could hoping to make improvements on the inside. The house is south facing, great views of Gap of Dunloe to south and Tralee Bay (kind of) to East, have my moms garden north with fully grown irish trees so they are all positives. Am willing to work with passive house experts and architects to make improvements, but regards going down road of reapplying, I dont think it would work or if it did it would probably take years (again). Am renting at moment and just want my own pad. Currently downloading files from Kerry Coco on my slow connection so hope to upload elevations later. Thanks Gallant JJ and all others

harry21

I'd be building the garage in cavity construction. Might be useful in years to come?

anjisbuild

harry21 wrote: »

I'd be building the garage in cavity construction. Might be useful in years to come?

Thanks Harry21, will definitely be doing that as its attached to house incase either set of parents need it or kids when they are all grown up. Have attached a very poor copy of elevations - engineer had put in another chimney in den area and put in other fake chimneys to balance it out. Also think she might have added window in walk in wardrobe. Again all advice appreciated.

anjisbuild

And the elevations - forgive bad quality, had to download file from Coco and take picture of relevant page

muffler

anjisbuild wrote: »

And the elevations - forgive bad quality

Bad quality indeed and that has nothing to do with down/uploading.

What age did you say your engineer was?

sydthebeat

1:200 elevations????

in fairness the elevations arent too bad. Im not so sure about the M roof, Best have that detailed up to perfection. The design retains aspects of vernacular farmhouse architecture.

BryanF

anjisbuild wrote: »

Re windows, again was the choice of the engineer but the local council said as house is facing a field (my own), I can put whatever windows I want in the back (south facing).

what exactly were you told/ intimated by the council regarding windows as this imho is the best means of alteration while holding on to the current PP, (along with remodelling inside and chimneys that is)

anjisbuild

At least there seems to be a bit of hope for me still.....council exact words were "you can do what you want with the back (south) of the house, have walls of glass if you want, we are just worried about the front (north)". So hoping can make the changes with that.

Muffler, engineer is from one of biggest contracting families in Kerry - well educated etc, must be pushing 36 if she is a day.

Sydthebeat and Bryan, thanks for the ray of light. I remain optimistic.

anjisbuild

sydthebeat wrote: »

1:200 elevations????

in fairness the elevations arent too bad. Im not so sure about the M roof, Best have that detailed up to perfection. The design retains aspects of vernacular farmhouse architecture.

Hi Sydthebeat, the roof is the one thing I have not been happy with since planning design - but Kerry Coco insisted. Am worried about rain, snow, frost etc. My hubby is thinking he will be camping up there in winter to keep it clear. have been told that doing parts in zinc will help against leaks. What do you think?

BryanF

as syd said good detailing and create good falls.

anjisbuild

BryanF wrote: »

as syd said good detailing and create good falls.

Thanks

sydthebeat

anjisbuild wrote: »

Hi Sydthebeat, the roof is the one thing I have not been happy with since planning design - but Kerry Coco insisted. Am worried about rain, snow, frost etc. My hubby is thinking he will be camping up there in winter to keep it clear. have been told that doing parts in zinc will help against leaks. What do you think?

you could always just roof the joining section in, and create 4 valleys. id trust them a lot quicker than a hidden valley like is currently designed. One thing that always scares me about those is the fear of a slate coming loose in a storm and sliding down puncturing the lead valley..... and where does the water leak to??? the inside of the house!!

harry21

Aren't most of these valleys not done in fiber glass. I wouldn't go near lead on a valley like that.

sydthebeat

harry21 wrote: »

Aren't most of these valleys not done in fiber glass. I wouldn't go near lead on a valley like that.

thats why i said it should be detailed up to perfection. but even at that.... id not trust a GRP material if a slate slides down into it.....

anjisbuild

sydthebeat wrote: »

thats why i said it should be detailed up to perfection. but even at that.... id not trust a GRP material if a slate slides down into it.....

Thanks Harry and Sid, excuse my ignorance but what is GRP material and re detailing roof to perfection - how do i insure that the builder does it perfectly? Showed the plans at the Mallow Homes Exhibitions last year and noone mentioned anything about hidden valleys to me - last thing I want is a leaking ceiling...HELP!!!!! My dream house is slowly turning into a nightmare:eek: and sorry you guys for asking stupid questions and taking up valuable time- you are all invited in advance to my housewarming:D and Ill even put you all up for the weekend while you admire your virtual handiwork

BryanF

anjisbuild wrote: »

noone mentioned anything about hidden valleys to me - last thing I want is a leaking ceiling.

don't be freaking yourself out the stuff being discussed is one in a long list of things that should be addressed at tender stage by most:rolleyes: professionals, then as you get to site a good builder and arch will cover anything else..

harry21

GRP - glass reinforced plastic. I wouldn't over worry about slate falling down the roof. Have never seen a slate punch through either GRP or lead, but in a horizontal valley it is definately something to consider. I prefer the GRP becuase it forms a water proof barrier with no joints - unlike the lead.

As a precaution one could consider using a valley gaurd/protector. There is not really any commercially available ones I found after a quick google though.

Another alternative would be to place larger sized stones (50-75mm) in the valley to protect it from falling debris. It also protects from over-exposer to sunlight which can be a major problem. The downside is cleaning the valley is much more difficult.

One major thing I would recommend (having cleaned a number of these valleys is detail them so they are wide enough to walk comfortably in. Otherwise you end up with lots of cracked tiles/slates because of people walk on them instead of in the valley.

anjisbuild

Thanks Harry21 and Bryan, I knew the roof would be the cause of grief...but Bryan you are right, it will be a long list of grief issues to be resolved one by one. Step 1 - I am going to talk to the planners about changing a little, especially elevations and maybe then I might be able to get rid of the valley and have a more aesthetically pleasing house - the same house I hope to spend many a happy and warm decade in.

BryanF

anjisbuild wrote: »

Thanks Harry21 and Bryan, I knew the roof would be the cause of grief...but Bryan you are right, it will be a long list of grief issues to be resolved one by one. Step 1 - I am going to talk to the planners about changing a little, especially elevations and maybe then I might be able to get rid of the valley and have a more aesthetically pleasing house - the same house I hope to spend many a happy and warm decade in.

http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/pdf/57155115.pdf
not sure if you seen this, look at the back, where they give a few elevs

step 1 is do a drawing:) step 2 is talk to the planners:)

leave the M shape alone, as in, unless your going back for planning again maybe yuo can just alter the roof shape. see attached for one option (please note this is a late 90's drawing and is just to give an idea for the valley)

anjisbuild

Thanks Bryan, that looks pretty nice - having a look over the cork guide now - last looked over it about 2 years ago and Kerry Coco have similar ideas. Enjoy your weekend

Slig

Personally, I think the elevations are nice and vernacular, exactly what the design guidelines call for. Unfortunately, the vernacular look was from when galzing was taxed, inefficent and expensive and doesnt lend itself to modern living. Dont depend on a salesmans advice on the windows.
I can now see the reason for the 215 "spine" wall down the centre of the build. Did your engineer explain to you that there will be constant maintenance required to stop this feature from leaking? I would have to agree with most of the posts here and reccomend that you get construction drawings done at the very least if not a redesign by a professional. Your engineer friend may have had the best of intentions but the carelessness/ignorance of those drawings will end up costing you a fortune. Dont let this person have anything else to do with your house as they are obviously either very very inexperienced or just plain incompitent.

The stairs will have to be redesigned (winders are to be avoided but if they cant should ONLY be used within the first 3 steps) I would be surprised if that could happen without having serious knock-on effects for the rest of the plans. A 100mm thick wall (like the external garage walls) is not in its self structural and definately is not sufficent to hold up the garage roof. 215mm blockwork is the very minimum that is required while a cavity wall would be preferred. At best this oversight will mean doubling the cost of the garage walls, at worst (if the builder/supervising engineer doesnt care) could result in the whole lot coming down in a mild breeze.

These are just 2 things I've notcied from having a quick glance on a Sunday evening, there will be many many more that will come to light if you dont get them checked out by someone professional. If these are only going to be dealt with on site then prepare for your budget to skyrocket.

anjisbuild

Slig wrote: »

Personally, I think the elevations are nice and vernacular, exactly what the design guidelines call for. Unfortunately, the vernacular look was from when galzing was taxed, inefficent and expensive and doesnt lend itself to modern living. Dont depend on a salesmans advice on the windows.
I can now see the reason for the 215 "spine" wall down the centre of the build. Did your engineer explain to you that there will be constant maintenance required to stop this feature from leaking? I would have to agree with most of the posts here and reccomend that you get construction drawings done at the very least if not a redesign by a professional. Your engineer friend may have had the best of intentions but the carelessness/ignorance of those drawings will end up costing you a fortune. Dont let this person have anything else to do with your house as they are obviously either very very inexperienced or just plain incompitent.

The stairs will have to be redesigned (winders are to be avoided but if they cant should ONLY be used within the first 3 steps) I would be surprised if that could happen without having serious knock-on effects for the rest of the plans. A 100mm thick wall (like the external garage walls) is not in its self structural and definately is not sufficent to hold up the garage roof. 215mm blockwork is the very minimum that is required while a cavity wall would be preferred. At best this oversight will mean doubling the cost of the garage walls, at worst (if the builder/supervising engineer doesnt care) could result in the whole lot coming down in a mild breeze.

These are just 2 things I've notcied from having a quick glance on a Sunday evening, there will be many many more that will come to light if you dont get them checked out by someone professional. If these are only going to be dealt with on site then prepare for your budget to skyrocket.

I must say that it has been a bit of a rollercoaster of a week - putting plans of my dream home up to hearing lots of (mostly negative but constructive I hope) posts. I will take every single comment into great consideration before I start the build. Thanks to everyone who commented and advised. Much appreciated.

anjisbuild

muffler wrote: »

Couple of posts above moved from the Live Self Build thread where they were a wee bit off topic

Hi Muffler, could you please delete my plans from the board please, had lots of great advice,, have made some changes and would prefer to have them removed now (if possible). Thanks a lot.

muffler

anjisbuild wrote: »

Hi Muffler, could you please delete my plans from the board please, had lots of great advice,, have made some changes and would prefer to have them removed now (if possible). Thanks a lot.

Right, leave this with me.