TRI/IM Running Pbs?

ecoli

Probably gonna be lynched for this one but came across this article which reminded me of a discussion I had with a Triathlete have run with in the past.

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/index.php/display-article?arId=63726

Basically we traveled to 10k together. He needed a particular run time to qualify for Euro Tri championships (or some competition like that) to prove his fitness for the team. Anyway the time was something like 33 min and he reckoned he was there or there abouts (having been on these teams few times not one for "just talk") anyway as the race went out i went at my pace and him at his but i was shocked to see that he was in my scope (I was aiming for 35) for the first mile and was shocked when he blew up just after 4k.

Got me thinking that do people take their Pbs from Tri/IM splits or do they solely base these on certified distance courses? Given possible % deviation how do people track these as PBs (Use of Garmin etc or does the race chip time come with the distance covered)

(before Tri people start sharpening their knives and come looking for me this is not having a go but more a general interest when I came across the article)

tunney

ecoli wrote: »

Probably gonna be lynched for this one but came across this article which reminded me of a discussion I had with a Triathlete have run with in the past.

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/index.php/display-article?arId=63726

Basically we traveled to 10k together. He needed a particular run time to qualify for Euro Tri championships (or some competition like that) to prove his fitness for the team. Anyway the time was something like 33 min and he reckoned he was there or there abouts (having been on these teams few times not one for "just talk") anyway as the race went out i went at my pace and him at his but i was shocked to see that he was in my scope (I was aiming for 35) for the first mile and was shocked when he blew up just after 4k.

Got me thinking that do people take their Pbs from Tri/IM splits or do they solely base these on certified distance courses? Given possible % deviation how do people track these as PBs (Use of Garmin etc or does the race chip time come with the distance covered)

(before Tri people start sharpening their knives and come looking for me this is not having a go but more a general interest when I came across the article)

I don't think any triathlete worth his/her salt uses tri splits as an indicator of running pbs.

In Ireland few of the races are the advertised distance. One particular organiser deliberately makes his races short so to attract people for "fast races".

As the article said this year they *shortened* the course in Austria (new Irish record there eh?) they took a few km off on the bike and same on the run this year. The bike course was already 2km short in 2010. Why organisers do this deliberately I don't know.

That being said Frankfurt was long (600m on the run) this year.

Basically in triathlons the splits aren't worth a sh!t and as is debated on Slowtwitch time and time again world records (set in Austria and then broken in Roth) are not really "world records" but course records.

That being said very few of the running races I've done have been accurate either but triathlon is woeful for it. only at the ITU level are they accurate (The Brownlees reall *are* running sub 30 off the bike)

pc11

This is one my bugbears. Coming from an athletics background, I can't understand why Tris don't make more effort to measure a standard distance. It's taken for granted in athletics and road running, at least for any decent event.

I realise it's not always easy to find a course to an exact length but us poor road runners can manage it and we're not paying 50 to 200 Euro entry fees!

When I said this here before a few people disagreed, saying they didn't care. Well, quite a few people do care!

Separately, I'd love to hear from people how their running times in triathlon compare to their road PBs (assuming you can trust the distances!) I'm very interested in how much people are slower in a tri.

So, what example do you have of (for instance) a 10k time vs a tri 10k around the same time?

couerdelion

It is annoying that triathlons aren't all the same distance. One of the main reasons for this seems to be the transition area between each discipline and the need for the finish line to be next to it (in most cases).

I do road races to try and work out my running pace as I know they are measured more accurately. The splits in races are only really comparable to the next years race on the same course.

kingQuez

Stop chasing times and start chasing the person infront of you

The weather changes the day in a triathlon, an open water swim, or a bike race too much to even compare your time on the same course from one day to the next. Trying to compare across different courses is even more futile. My understanding is that in track running you can only achieve records if the weather falls into strictly regulated bounds; do you consider yourself to have run the same marathon if you go the distance on a flat course on a cool autumn day, vs a 30 degree day on a hilly course? If you *really* want to measure your fitness based on the results of a triathlon or a marathon do one indoors in fixed conditions that are repeatable.

In a marathon, a triathlon or anything else, ultimately it's a race. The goal is to be faster than the other people around you. Points aren't scored as a result of your finish time, but relative to the finish time of the winner. When I try to compare how I performed in different races I'll look at where people that have done the same races as me placed on the day. Times are not comparable.

Bambaata

I dont consider tri legs as pbs and i dont know why anyone would. My best marathon time is still something like 3:18 and 10k 45 odd mins and while i know i was in far better shape this summer they still stand as my "pbs". Even if the distance was accurate its not as fast as could be done without the other legs so i still wouldnt be happy to call it a pb

ecoli

kingQuez wrote: »

Stop chasing times and start chasing the person infront of you

The weather changes the day in a triathlon, an open water swim, or a bike race too much to even compare your time on the same course from one day to the next. Trying to compare across different courses is even more futile. My understanding is that in track running you can only achieve records if the weather falls into strictly regulated bounds; do you consider yourself to have run the same marathon if you go the distance on a flat course on a cool autumn day, vs a 30 degree day on a hilly course? If you *really* want to measure your fitness based on the results of a triathlon or a marathon do one indoors in fixed conditions that are repeatable.

In a marathon, a triathlon or anything else, ultimately it's a race. The goal is to be faster than the other people around you. Points aren't scored as a result of your finish time, but relative to the finish time of the winner. When I try to compare how I performed in different races I'll look at where people that have done the same races as me placed on the day. Times are not comparable.

Only in 100/200/LJ all others do not take wind readings as 400m and longer negate the weather variants by running a looped course.

Also if you look to athletics races AAI rankings is based on time not finishing position in nationals. Elite qualification is based on time not finishing position at nationals

I think times are more important in running than you realise though I cannot speak for Triathlon as that is a completely different sport which is why i brought up the topic as I am coming from a running background and just trying to get the feedback from within the sport as opposed to an "outsider" looking in

shotgunmcos

pc11 wrote: »

Separately, I'd love to hear from people how their running times in triathlon compare to their road PBs (assuming you can trust the distances!) I'm very interested in how much people are slower in a tri.

About 2 mins for me for my best efforts, both this year and within 2 months of each other. Both were done after long training sessions the previous day thus a viable comparison of effort
Road 10k at Adare (rolling course accurate) 38:09
Tri 10k at Joey Hanon (flat course accurate) 40:01

Pisco Sour

Only done 2 tris and not to anywhere near the same level as most guys on this thread but here's my experience:

TriAthlone 2008 Sprint: My 5km PB at the time was 21:46, yet I somehow managed to pull off a 22:40 run split at the end of the swim and bike. I was using a hybrid city bike and was wrecked after the cycle, and the run had some disgusting hills in it. I did feel quite good in the run but not "54 seconds off PB type good". That run must have been short, though I like to kid myself that it wasnt.

TriAthy 2009 Olympic: The run was about 9.4km, which was the general measurement people had when discussing that race on this forum.

Bambaata

04072511 wrote: »

Only done 2 tris and not to anywhere near the same level as most guys on this thread but here's my experience:

TriAthlone 2008 Sprint: My 5km PB at the time was 21:46, yet I somehow managed to pull off a 22:40 run split at the end of the swim and bike. I was using a hybrid city bike and was wrecked after the cycle, and the run had some disgusting hills in it. I did feel quite good in the run but not "54 seconds off PB type good". That run must have been short, though I like to kid myself that it wasnt.

TriAthy 2009 Olympic: The run was about 9.4km, which was the general measurement people had when discussing that race on this forum.

Tbh athlone is a hard run and I dont think its short, the oly is long so fair play for getting close there. Having not done a decent effort on the road I dont really know how id compare but I wouldnt think id shave much below 37 mins for 10k where id expect to go sub 38 in a tri so I dont think theres too much of a difference. Oh to go sub 35 at either! I cant comprehend that just yet, maybe some day

Oryx

My stand alone half mara time this year was 1.45. My best half mara in a tri this year was 1.52 and I reckon thats an accurate course. My half mara pb is 1.41 but I'm way off that form now, obviously.

I think the distances for most tri courses can be a bit 'loose' but you don't compare times across different races really, same as you know different run courses will give you good or bad times. For me a pb run split in a tri would always have a question mark of 'was that short?'

carkulture

I am going to train for my second IM next year. Last year I used a run/walk method for the marathon. Thinking about running the whole way next time, but not sure it would improve my time. Should I stick to the run/walk plan and pick up the pace or try to run the whole way? Does anyone else use this run/walk method and what do you think of it?

rosscollins88

I'm the (ex-)triathlete in question. In fairness you're not telling the full story. I had ran 33.40 a few months previous in belfast in snow and ice with just one month back training and had only really started to get in shape around the new year. Fellas I had beaten over 5k that summer ran 33.15 that day.

Then I had an illness in January and went over my ankle the week previous to the race. I had to run the time to qualify for the U23, what was the point in running a 34 min 10k. I had to give it a go and had the ankle strapped up in the race although that really didn't hinder me on the day. Was on target time through 3k and then stopped after 4k as my splits started to slip. Walked for a minute and jogged to the finish line for roughly 36mins.

So to say I had grand illusions of my running potential is gross misrepresentation - although I will admit to having only ever ran 4 open 10k and 3 open 5k races so it can be hard to exactly judge your potential pb times with that lack of open race experience.

ecoli

rosscollins88 wrote: »

I'm the (ex-)triathlete in question. In fairness you're not telling the full story. I had ran 33.40 a few months previous in belfast in snow and ice with just one month back training and had only really started to get in shape around the new year. Fellas I had beaten over 5k that summer ran 33.15 that day.

Then I had an illness in January and went over my ankle the week previous to the race. I had to run the time to qualify for the U23, what was the point in running a 34 min 10k. I had to give it a go and had the ankle strapped up in the race although that really didn't hinder me on the day. Was on target time through 3k and then stopped after 4k as my splits started to slip. Walked for a minute and jogged to the finish line for roughly 36mins.

So to say I had grand illusions of my running potential is gross misrepresentation - although I will admit to having only ever ran 4 open 10k and 3 open 5k races so it can be hard to exactly judge your potential pb times with that lack of open race experience.

I never said you had illusions of grandeur in fact I mentioned that you were the opposite and not one for just talk.

I was generally interested in the comparisons in the two and the article reminded me of that race slightly.

Apologies if it seemed like I was having a go at you for being "all talk" but rather was more an interest of how the comparisons faired up as I dont have experience in Tri's and have stumbled upon a few topics over the last week or two both here and on other sites

No offence was intended

shels4ever

ecoli wrote: »

I never said you had illusions of grandeur in fact I mentioned that you were the opposite and not one for just talk.

I was generally interested in the comparisons in the two and the article reminded me of that race slightly.

Apologies if it seemed like I was having a go at you for being "all talk" but rather was more an interest of how the comparisons faired up as I dont have experience in Tri's and have stumbled upon a few topics over the last week or two both here and on other sites

No offence was intended

Your really making friends this year , First the ppl with Families now Triathlete's Who's next ?

RayCun

shels4ever wrote: »

Your really making friends this year , First the ppl with Families now Triathlete's Who's next ?

Marathon runners :pac:

tunney

RayCun wrote: »

Marathon runners :pac:

Mah - triathletes are kn0bs and deserve the abuse.

ecoli

RayCun wrote: »

Marathon runners :pac:

Waiting till taper madness sets in here before I start that for maximum effect:D

Think I will have to stick to topics on gels/ running music for the next few months to stay out of trouble