Yasso 800's - any good?

Gringo78

Did a session of Yasso 800's this evening - what are peoples thoughts on their usefulness as a marathon predictor session?

nerraw1111

Gringo78 wrote: »

Did a session of Yasso 800's this evening - what are peoples thoughts on their usefulness as a marathon predictor session?

Listen to his marathon talk podcast. Fascinating. Seems spot on for a certain kind of runner. Can't remember exactly who he says they work for

Krusty_Clown

Gringo78 wrote: »

Did a session of Yasso 800's this evening - what are peoples thoughts on their usefulness as a marathon predictor session?

More importantly, what did they predict?

I've never tried them, but they just seem a little arbitrary to me as a marathon predictor. A perfectly good session in their own right, but they have no scientific basis to predict anything. 800m doesn't even correlate to any marathon related distances.

But, I reckon it does provide benefit in two ways:
1. A psychological boost that tells you that you are able for your target
2. It provides a reference point, so you have something to compare and track your progress.

Runners already have their target in mind when they do the Yasso 800s, so it's more a case of getting the workout to match their goal. So it's like saying: If you can do this workout, then you have a fitness level suitable for you're target. What are the 800s run at? Approximately 3k-5k pace?

RoyMcC

In my case they're a good workout but a predictor of nothing.

Gringo78

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

More importantly, what did they predict?

Depends on what way you analyse results....

My own view is Yasso 800s tell you what you can't do and you should take your slowest rep time as the time, not the average rep time i.e they predict an overly generous time so you'd want to able to at least hit your target time. If you can hit it on all reps then you're in the ballpark anyways bit nothing more.

I averaged 2:44 with a slowest of 2:50 but did them off 90-100sec recovery rather than the 2:50 I would have been allowed. I think the recoveries are far too generous. I also did the session fatigued, within 24hrs of 11mile run w/8@PMP. So if did this session fresh, with full recovery I reckon I would have cruised 2:40 (and 100% am not in that shape)

twas my first time this year doing the session. I think Bart Yasso recommends building them up week by week from 4 reps which again I think is dubious....any session you repeat a number of times gets familiar and easier (psychologically)

Patrick_K

Been wondering about these too, I've been doing them in preparation for my first marathon and would agree that they seem a little easy and the recoveries too long.
Was interesting to hear himself talk about them on Marathon Talk and it made sense what he said about them being mostly applicable for a high mileage athlete doing them on tired legs.
I'd say anybody doing them on reasonably fresh legs would find them easy.
Having said that any positive reinforcement is very welcome at this stage!

PK

Gringo78

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

What are the 800s run at? Approximately 3k-5k pace?

According to daniels VDOT's, the 800's would be your marathon times corresponding 5k pace - so actually they tell you nothing more than that you're capable of said marathon time in theory, but does not tell you if you have the endurance for it i.e same as using a 5k time to predict a marathon time

Krusty_Clown

Gringo78 wrote: »

According to daniels VDOT's, the 800's would be your marathon times corresponding 5k pace - so actually they tell you nothing more than that you're capable of said marathon time in theory, but does not tell you if you have the endurance for it i.e same as using a 5k time to predict a marathon time

See you could say the same thing about a 5k race during your marathon training period. Take your average pace per mile for the 5k race and divide it by 2. That's your new marathon time. So in my case, recent 5k race during marathon training: 17:16. Pace per mile: 5:33. Divide it by 2: 2:46.
I like to use the Pfiztinger and Douglas Vo2max session (3 x 1 mile @5k pace, with 50-90% recovery) to track my own progress (but not as a marathon predictor).

Gringo78

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

See you could say the same thing about a 5k race during your marathon training period. Take your average pace per mile for the 5k race and divide it by 2. That's your new marathon time. So in my case, recent 5k race during marathon training: 17:16. Pace per mile: 5:33. Divide it by 2: 2:46.
I like to use the Pfiztinger and Douglas Vo2max session (3 x 1 mile @5k pace, with 50-90% recovery) to track my own progress (but not as a marathon predictor).

So the Krusty 5's predictor workout? Just too complicated - so I have to calculate pace per mile from a 5k race distance and then divide it by 2? Yasso 800's work because theres no math involved.

But yeah - basically the same thing. Anything which gives you a reasonable 5k time prediction.

If you have good 5k pace, marathon pace should feel doable. If you have good endurance also, marathon pace for 26 miles will be doable.

3 x 20 mile LSR's @ +10% MP with a fast 2-3 mile MP finish are a good predictor workout for endurance so combine that with Yasso 800's, a 5k time trial & 3x1mile at 5k pace and you have a great marathon predictor - take average of all 6 predictions. Thats a good 3 weeks training there which is probably the real reason for why it would be a good predictor.

Yasso 800's are easy so they work for people who are fatigued because they've been putting in the miles doing the long runs and building endurance. They don't work for low mileage people who have decent speed but shy away from the long stuff.

Podge83

I used a session of yasoo's 800's and found them accurate.

Overall they are a great session. They wont work for everyone though and in my case maybe it was luck. Also I think it depends on what time you are going for.

ecoli

Podge83 wrote: »

I used a session of yasoo's 800's and found them accurate.

Overall they are a great session. They wont work for everyone though and in my case maybe it was luck. Also I think it depends on what time you are going for.

Did you run them and then decide on your target or have a target that you had been working for and then do the session?

TFBubendorfer

I did Yassos twice before a marathon and both times the prediction was amazingly accurate.

I leave it to you to decide if it was a psychological boost, coincidence, self-fulfilling prophecy or indeed an accurate prediction.

Apart from that, they're a good workout, but don't do it too close to the race.

ddel

Totally depends on the type of athlete and type of training. I did yasso's years ago (not knowing what they were called) as endurance type stuff for 400m/800m training and knocked out sub 2.40's with 90 secs of recovery. I know for a fact there's no way at that time I could have done a sub 3 marathon. However, if you are a pure miles type of athlete with no anearobic/speed/intense interval type training to speak off I could see them working as a good predictor.

Podge83

Ecoli,

I had a target before doing the session. The result was within a minute or two of the eventual marathon time. There's no way i could have done another 800 after the 10.

Mind you, I cheated slightly as i did them on a treadmill, so it was either do them or fall off!

wideball

I aiming for sub 3 in DCM and I've been doing them for the last number of weeks, managed 8 last night. I feel they are great/simple workout but I dread having to do them!

I'm averaging 2-40:2-45 for them which I know I can't run in DCM but it gives me confidence that sub 3 is possible and achievable. I've mixed plenty of long runs in with my training as well but the bit of speed/strength from the Yasso's have really helped. I hope to complete the 10 before DCM.

Krusty_Clown

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I did Yassos twice before a marathon and both times the prediction was amazingly accurate.

I leave it to you to decide if it was a psychological boost, coincidence, self-fulfilling prophecy or indeed an accurate prediction.

Apart from that, they're a good workout, but don't do it too close to the race.

So did you run your 400s based on your planned marathon goal time, or did you run your marathon based on your achieved 400s times?

wideball wrote:

I'm averaging 2-40:2-45 for them which I know I can't run in DCM but it gives me confidence that sub 3 is possible and achievable. I've mixed plenty of long runs in with my training as well but the bit of speed/strength from the Yasso's have really helped. I hope to complete the 10 before DCM.

Ok, you're our new test subject. Go out at 2:40 pace in DCM, and let's put this one to bed.

Clum

I've been doing Yasso's 800s in preperation for Dublin too. I've an 800m circuit picked out and I'm not watching the clock while I run them. I check the times after the session is finished and average them then. I literally run them all hard but at a pace I think I can manage over all 10 intervals. I was timing my recovery though, and set it to 2mins 45secs, during which I slow jog 400m.

2 hours 45mins was a delusional dream target I had for Dublin.

A few weeks back I was actually averaging 2.45 but in the last month since the mileage has really peaked I'm averaging 2.52.

I won't rely soley on Yasso's 800s as a predictor though. I've found the tempo runs being a better predictor and in those I'm not hitting 2.52 pace. Maybe 2.53. So it's close. I know my target for Dublin now anyway.

TFBubendorfer

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

So did you run your 400s based on your planned marathon goal time, or did you run your marathon based on your achieved 400s times?

400s? Yassos are 800s!

I did a set of 10x800 with equal recovery, because that's what Yassos are, any other workout involving any other distance/number/recovery is not a Yasso 800 set.

I did a session a few weeks before Cork 2008. I ran them by feel and checked the Garmin afterwards. The average time for the 800s was 3:09.5, and my Cork marathon time was 3:09:38. :eek:

I did another workout before Boston 2009. I just checked and realised I only did 7 repeats instead of 10 on that occasion, which may well explain why the Yasso prediction of 3:03 was faster than my eventual marathon time of 3:10:36. (That, or the 26 miles of headwind that year, and the fact that my quads died halfway through)

It's mostly the spookily accurate Cork prediction that's stuck in my mind.

Gringo78

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

400s? Yassos are 800s!

I did a set of 10x800 with equal recovery, because that's what Yassos are, any other workout involving any other distance/number/recovery is not a Yasso 800 set.

I did a session a few weeks before Cork 2008. I ran them by feel and checked the Garmin afterwards. The average time for the 800s was 3:09.5, and my Cork marathon time was 3:09:38. :eek:

I did another workout before Boston 2009. I just checked and realised I only did 7 repeats instead of 10 on that occasion, which may well explain why the Yasso prediction of 3:03 was faster than my eventual marathon time of 3:10:36. (That, or the 26 miles of headwind that year, and the fact that my quads died halfway through)

It's mostly the spookily accurate Cork prediction that's stuck in my mind.

I think you're the classic runner type it applies to.....big miles training, emphasis of work on endurance, Yasso 800's a great check if your raw 5k speed is up to scratch. Other runners will start out with good 5k/10k speed, plug a figure into McMillan and see a sub 3 marathon is on.....Yasso 800's are effectively just another check on the 5k pace which they should already be 100% on. What a runner like that needs to know is how is their endurance which Yasso 800's do not tell.

Yasso 800's seem to be a good 800m session though - a typical recovery after an 800m rep is a 400m walk/jog recovery which generally works out as the same amount of time it takes you to run 800m at 3k-5k pace anyway which ties in with the Yasso 800 recoveries.

Pronator

I started running these last week, with 6x800 and then today 8x800. I'm doing them as a sharpener for Dublin, I hate this session and the jury is out on how benefitial they are for me or how accurate they will be. I am relatively speaking, coming off of high mileage 75 mpw so the proof will be in the pudding come Oct 31st. My avg last week was 2.35 and this week 2.34 but there is no way on earth that I will run that in Dublin:eek:

Gringo78 wrote: »

I think you're the classic runner type it applies to.....big miles training, emphasis of work on endurance, Yasso 800's a great check if your raw 5k speed is up to scratch. Other runners will start out with good 5k/10k speed, plug a figure into McMillan and see a sub 3 marathon is on.....Yasso 800's are effectively just another check on the 5k pace which they should already be 100% on. What a runner like that needs to know is how is their endurance which Yasso 800's do not tell.

Yasso 800's seem to be a good 800m session though - a typical recovery after an 800m rep is a 400m walk/jog recovery which generally works out as the same amount of time it takes you to run 800m at 3k-5k pace anyway which ties in with the Yasso 800 recoveries.

Krusty_Clown

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

400s? Yassos are 800s!

You haven't heard of Yasso 400s? :eek::eek::eek:
They're a scientific half marathon predictor, based on the principle that 400m can be divided into the half marathon distance exactly 52.743 times (a figure which correlates exactly to the number of weeks in the Babylonian calendar year ).

TFBubendorfer

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

You haven't heard of Yasso 400s? :eek::eek::eek:
They're a scientific half marathon predictor, based on the principle that 400m can be divided into the half marathon distance exactly 52.743 times (a figure which correlates exactly to the number of weeks in the Babylonian calendar year ).

Fascinating. That makes them far superior to the Yasso 800s, which cannot claim any scientific backing at all.

Clum

Clum wrote: »

I've been doing Yasso's 800s in preperation for Dublin too. I've an 800m circuit picked out and I'm not watching the clock while I run them. I check the times after the session is finished and average them then. I literally run them all hard but at a pace I think I can manage over all 10 intervals. I was timing my recovery though, and set it to 2mins 45secs, during which I slow jog 400m.

2 hours 45mins was a delusional dream target I had for Dublin.

A few weeks back I was actually averaging 2.45 but in the last month since the mileage has really peaked I'm averaging 2.52.

I won't rely soley on Yasso's 800s as a predictor though. I've found the tempo runs being a better predictor and in those I'm not hitting 2.52 pace. Maybe 2.53. So it's close. I know my target for Dublin now anyway.

Ran 2.52 in Dublin yesterday. Yasso's 800s are either a good indicator or that was some coincidence.

Krusty_Clown

Clum wrote: »

Ran 2.52 in Dublin yesterday. Yasso's 800s are either a good indicator or that was some coincidence.

Congrats! What time were you aiming for?

Clum

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Congrats! What time were you aiming for?

Thanks, Krusty. Went out at 2.50 pace but reckoned before the race even started that I wasn't going to achieve that. Got to halfway on target but I knew I couldn't keep that going so settled down a bit looking for anything from 2.52 to 2.54 and held on for a very satisfactory 2.52.