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Planning FI

  • 04-10-2011 8:22pm
    #1
    rcgk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6 ✭


    My parents are trying to get planning in their local area. They have handed over the farm and house to my brother. However, the planning office are saying because he has planning in the area (received 2008) and now the home house in his name that my parents can't get planning. I don't get it. They don't own the house or the farm or the site which currently has planning but they can't get planning on the site they do own because my brother has potentially 2 rural dwellings in an area. Anyone know of this happening before in any county which might be a precedent or a way to get around this? Thanks


Comments

  • #2
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    rcgk wrote: »
    My parents are trying to get planning in their local area. They have handed over the farm and house to my brother. However, the planning office are saying because he has planning in the area (received 2008) and now the home house in his name that my parents can't get planning. I don't get it. They don't own the house or the farm or the site which currently has planning but they can't get planning on the site they do own because my brother has potentially 2 rural dwellings in an area. Anyone know of this happening before in any county which might be a precedent or a way to get around this? Thanks
    you may want show extenuating circumstances, like the farm house is not adequate for your parents needs..
    also you may be as well off to search throu the ABP database (thats what I've had to do in the past) or have a planning consultant take a look at the application, I can recommend one or two if you require.


  • #3
    rcgk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6 ✭rcgk


    Thanks Bryan. Where can I access the database you mention?


  • #4
    muffler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46,545 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    rcgk wrote: »
    or a way to get around this?
    Im going soft in my old age :(

    Please take a minute to read the forum charter particularly Section 6.1


  • #5
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,170 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    what is your brother doing with his original house if hes now in the farm house?

    if he is selling it, then the council would be, in effect, giving permission for a house for sale.. which is against rural planning policy.

    As bryan states, your parents will have to come up with a very strong argument as to why:
    1. they gave their home to their son when he already had a house
    2. why they are not now living in your brothers house ie is there special circumstances re disability etc?


  • #6
    mickdw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,686 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    If I understand correctly, the planners appear to have a point in this case. There are 2 houses now on the farm, new house and original parents house. Why do they not live there as there need for housing in the area would surely relate to the farm etc.

    Maybe if you could show that the 2 houses are now being occupied by other family members who work the farm.


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  • #7
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    rcgk wrote: »
    Thanks Bryan. Where can I access the database you mention?
    now when i said database, i meant archaic pain in the.. http://www.pleanala.ie/lists/2011/decided/index.htm


  • #8
    rcgk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6 ✭rcgk


    Perhaps I should clarify. My brother received planning permission but didn't build the house. Since then he was transferred the farm. So in effect there is only one house on the farm


  • #9
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,170 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    so why dont your parents take over his planning permission?

    as they are immediate family they are usually allowed to become the 'applicant'


  • #10
    rcgk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6 ✭rcgk


    Because they wouldn't own the site that the house would be on and therefore in 20 years time wouldn't have anything to sell if they wanted to put money towards a nursing home or the like


  • #11
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    rcgk wrote: »
    Because they wouldn't own the site that the house would be on and therefore in 20 years time wouldn't have anything to sell if they wanted to put money towards a nursing home or the like
    RCGK,
    now i would have to check this out myself, but if it were me I'd: get your preferred architect and sit down with the planner. advise the planner of the situation. ie. your bro's house is not built. he is living in the family home and would be willing to sterilise the existing planning (not build the house house that has the planning) and the rest of the land, IF a new application for your parents was successful...


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  • #12
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,170 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    rcgk wrote: »
    Because they wouldn't own the site that the house would be on and therefore in 20 years time wouldn't have anything to sell if they wanted to put money towards a nursing home or the like

    but they obviously own the site they are applying on currently? land swap is a reasonable option?

    Assuming your brothers permission is still valid, then theres nothing stopping him from building the house. He will then have two houses. So he has the option of selling one.

    There is no difference between this situation and your parents selling the farmhouse and looking for permission for another dwelling. Its something the council would frown upon.


  • #13
    mickdw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,686 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    It sounds odd that your parents handed over a farm and did not get to keep a site given that they need somewehere to live and also seeing as there is now spare planning permission on site on the farm.


  • #14
    rcgk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6 ✭rcgk


    Thanks for all the input. They are going back in to talk to the planner. Just to clarify the pp already existing is too integral to the farm for them to build on with the option of selling at a later date. The farm was signed over since the pp was granted. They retained the piece of land on which they are now applying on in order to build their house. The current dwelling isn't really up to much but it was sufficient while they were in good health. Thanks again.


  • #15
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    rcgk wrote: »
    They are going back in to talk to the planner.
    by 'they' I recommend you send someone who is used to dealing with the planning process with them.. this has a few benefits mainly that the planner knows there serious, there's more chance of the conversation remaining civil and a compromise being reached, and more chance of the professional being able to read between the lines or argue when the typical planner falls back on the development-plan...

    I still reckon your best bet is to offer that the active planning consent be cancelled/sterilised as a condition of a new dwelling being granted.. otherwise you need to argue the existing house is uninhabitable which would be imo more difficult for the planners to accept..


  • #16
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,170 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    rcgk wrote: »
    Thanks for all the input. They are going back in to talk to the planner. Just to clarify the pp already existing is too integral to the farm for them to build on with the option of selling at a later date. The farm was signed over since the pp was granted. They retained the piece of land on which they are now applying on in order to build their house. The current dwelling isn't really up to much but it was sufficient while they were in good health. Thanks again.



    1. knowing that they would require a new home, they should have not retained a specific site without first having been granted planning on it

    2. they should have not signed over the land without knowing first if they could get planning on a new site

    3. if the pp is 'integral' to the farm why did the brother require the farm house???

    You must understand that the planners will not look at this from a 'selling in future years' point of view. If anything, if this is brought up, it may damage the argument.

    from the little i know through this thread it seems that if your parents are to be successful they should have to make a strong argument including:

    1. argue why the existing permission doesnt suit your parents needs (resale is not an argument)

    2. somehow sterilise the existing planning permission (this may be legally difficult)

    3. argue why the proposed site is more suitable than the site where pp exists.


  • #17
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    2. somehow sterilise the existing planning permission (this may be legally difficult)
    i guess presuming this is a five year permission granted in 2008 they've only a two year weight before this this PP is out anyway...

    Syd, what the legal issues?


  • #18
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,170 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    BryanF wrote: »
    i guess presuming this is a five year permission granted in 2008 they've only a two year weight before this this PP is out anyway...

    Syd, what the legal issues?

    i dont what to thread a fine line here regarding our charter, but i think the council would need something like an affidavit stating that the permission wouldnt be enacted if permission was given elsewhere. Theres the added issue of there being two separate landowners so two signatures needed.

    i dont think in this case that the usual 'sterilisation' route would suffice.


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