Amanda Knox Trial and Appeal

censuspro

There are threads on this in AH but I had a couple of genuine questions that I was hoping someone could help answer. The media coverage of the whole trial revolved around Amanda Knox with very little detail of what the evidence against her was in the first trial. Does anyone know what the actual evidence was against her in the first trial that was strong enough to secure a conviction? I understand that she made the false allegation against the restaurant owner but surely that alone couldn't suffice.
Also, the third person who was convicted for the murder, did he try and place Amanda Knox at the murder scene, and is it confirmed if they even knew each other?

A Primal Nut

The evidence against her and Raffaele Sollecito was mainly that:

1) Rudy Guede, the other man convicted, testified against Sollecto and Knox.

2) Knox had signed a confession.

3) Inconsistent statements by both Knox and Sollecito.

4) A kitchen knife found in Raffaele's house had Amanda's DNA on the handle and Kercher's DNA on the blade.

5) A severed piece of Kercher's bra had Sollecito's DNA.

6) Knox and Raffaele said they were in Raffaele's apartment during the whole night, but some witnesses testified that they had seen them elsewhere.

The DNA evidence in 4 and 5 was considered invalid during the appeal as basic steps to stop contamination were not applied. Incredible that they passed at the first trial. Evidence about the alibi was always inconclusive with witnesses contradicting each other, unsure of dates, etc. Again how they were allowed in the first trial I don't know.

As for 2-3, they were in the context of high pressure, 12-hour interrogations. I can understand interrogations being useful for intelligence purposes; but the idea that they can be used for evidence purposes is scary. Bear in mind Amanda and Raffaele were both very young and unfamiliar with any legal system. According to Knox she was denied until water until after she signed the confession. She withdrew the confession quite quickly.

As for 1, Rudy originally said he acted alone but changed his mind in return for a reduced sentence. Again, how any legal system allowed this is beyond me.

I wonder if any of this evidence would have being accepted in an Irish court?

A Primal Nut

A Primal Nut wrote: »

The evidence against her and Raffaele Sollecito was mainly that:

1) Rudy Guede, the other man convicted, testified against Sollecto and Knox.

Did Knox or Sollecito deny or confirm that they knew Rudy Guede?

A Primal Nut

I found this by searching on Google, from a report on the appeal. Seems they both deny ever knowing Guede.

http://live-blog.uk.msn.com/Event/Meredith_Kercher_verdict?Page=0

Like Sollecito, Knox denies ever knowing Rudy Guede, the other man convicted of Miss Kercher's murder in a separate trial.

Also found this:

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/224525/20111004/amanda-knox-acquitted-murder-of-meredith-kercher-rudy-geude-confession-raffaele-sollecito-verdict.htm

Isn't it strange that Guede was allowed testify for the prosecution, even though his account is completely different from the prosecution? Any legal expert with a verdict on this? Is it normal? Surely it undermines their case, rather than supports it?

v638sg7k1a92bx

So Amanda Knox has been found guilty again. It's very hard to establish what the actual facts of this case are? Everything that is reported is the reaction of the victims family, Knox and Sollecito.

seb65

There were no new facts or evidence. The only difference that I can tell is that they tested the 'unknown' DNA found on the blade of the kitchen knife. In the previous trial the prosecution hypothesized that it was the victim's. However, the testing in this trial revealed that it was Knox's.

This judgment is the result of hatred of and prejudice against, Americans.

Oddly, though Knox could not have been the one who raped Krecher she was given the longest sentence of the three, in the first trial. The prosecution painted her as the ringleader who convinced the other two to murder Krecher in a satanic, ritualistic, sex game or something.

Give me a break. This ridiculousness has undoubtedly increased the grief and trauma to the victim's family. As they said, she has been forgotten in all of this.

schemingbohemia

seb65 wrote: »

There were no new facts or evidence. The only difference that I can tell is that they tested the 'unknown' DNA found on the blade of the kitchen knife. In the previous trial the prosecution hypothesized that it was the victim's. However, the testing in this trial revealed that it was Knox's.

This judgment is the result of usual European hatred of and prejudice against, Americans.

Oddly, though Knox could not have been the one who raped Krecher she was given the longest sentence of the three, in the first trial. The prosecution painted her as the ringleader who convinced the other two to murder Krecher in a satanic, ritualistic, sex game or something.

Give me a break. This ridiculousness has undoubtedly increased the grief and trauma to the victim's family. As they said, she has been forgotten in all of this.

Hyperbole much?

seb65

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Hyperbole much?

Fixed post, a bit. However, if you saw the Italian townspeople practically out with the pitchforks and burning brooms, you might not think it's an exaggeration.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Victor

seb65 wrote: »

This judgment is the result of hatred of and prejudice against, Americans.

And this trial only ever came to the media's attention because one of the accused is 'foxy'.

Manach

An interesting book, 'Math on Trial' had a chapter on this case. It focused on the DNA evidence. Basically stated this part of the evidence was poorly handled by the prosecution and the statistical analysis used was dubious.

DexyDrain

A Primal Nut wrote: »

The evidence against her and Raffaele Sollecito was mainly that:

1) Rudy Guede, the other man convicted, testified against Sollecto and Knox.

2) Knox had signed a confession.

3) Inconsistent statements by both Knox and Sollecito.

4) A kitchen knife found in Raffaele's house had Amanda's DNA on the handle and Kercher's DNA on the blade.

5) A severed piece of Kercher's bra had Sollecito's DNA.

6) Knox and Raffaele said they were in Raffaele's apartment during the whole night, but some witnesses testified that they had seen them elsewhere.

The DNA evidence in 4 and 5 was considered invalid during the appeal as basic steps to stop contamination were not applied. Incredible that they passed at the first trial. Evidence about the alibi was always inconclusive with witnesses contradicting each other, unsure of dates, etc. Again how they were allowed in the first trial I don't know.

As for 2-3, they were in the context of high pressure, 12-hour interrogations. I can understand interrogations being useful for intelligence purposes; but the idea that they can be used for evidence purposes is scary. Bear in mind Amanda and Raffaele were both very young and unfamiliar with any legal system. According to Knox she was denied until water until after she signed the confession. She withdrew the confession quite quickly.

As for 1, Rudy originally said he acted alone but changed his mind in return for a reduced sentence. Again, how any legal system allowed this is beyond me.

I wonder if any of this evidence would have being accepted in an Irish court?

You forgot:

Both Micheli (Guede trial judge) and Massei agreed the 'break in' was staged. This was due to the shutters being closed when the rock was thrown from the inside, the glass still sitting on the 4m high window sill (unless Spider-Man climbed down from the roof) which would have been brushed or knocked off, nothing stolen apart from Meredith's phones etc.

Meredith's body was moved after she eventually died, her clothes then torn off and a partial clean up attempted.

Knox is the only person on the planet with a motive to make it 'look' like a break-in to cover the fact that Guede and Sollectio were let into the house by the front door.

The lamp from Knox's room was the only source of artificial light in her room, yet she had a shower and didn't notice it was gone. It had been used to help clean up certain incriminating areas of Meredith's room.

Knox failed to raise the alarm after returning back to the cottage and finding it abandoned with the front door open, faeces in a toilet, blood in the bathroom and bloody footprints in the hall outside Meredith's locked door.

Guede's footprints lead straight from the room out the hall door, he did not turn to lock the door after fleeing. Someone else knew where the key was, locked the door and then tried to mop up their footprints.

Sollecito's bloody footprint was on the bathmat.

Sollecito only called to report the 'burgulary' after the postal police had arrived to return Meredith's phones unexepectedly.

Amanda knew Meredith's throat was cut despite not seeing into the room and under the duvet covering the body, on the same day.

A shop owner testified Knox was waiting for his shop to open to buy cleaning products early in the morning.

Knox and Sollecito both contradicted the other's alibi.

Sollecito said the slept until 10 but his computer was switched on and music played in the early hours of the morning.

Knox put an innocent man in jail to get out of questioning, this was after 1 hour of questioning, not 5 days or even 12 hours.

She did not retract her statement against Patrick, a business man saw Patrick on the news and realised he was with him that evening, this led to Patrick's release.

I'm barely even started....

derra

DexyDrain wrote: »

I'm barely even started....

Keep going, Dexy.

v638sg7k1a92bx

DexyDrain wrote: »

You forgot:

Both Micheli (Guede trial judge) and Massei agreed the 'break in' was staged. This was due to the shutters being closed when the rock was thrown from the inside, the glass still sitting on the 4m high window sill (unless Spider-Man climbed down from the roof) which would have been brushed or knocked off, nothing stolen apart from Meredith's phones etc.

Meredith's body was moved after she eventually died, her clothes then torn off and a partial clean up attempted.

Knox is the only person on the planet with a motive to make it 'look' like a break-in to cover the fact that Guede and Sollectio were let into the house by the front door.

The lamp from Knox's room was the only source of artificial light in her room, yet she had a shower and didn't notice it was gone. It had been used to help clean up certain incriminating areas of Meredith's room.

Knox failed to raise the alarm after returning back to the cottage and finding it abandoned with the front door open, faeces in a toilet, blood in the bathroom and bloody footprints in the hall outside Meredith's locked door.

Guede's footprints lead straight from the room out the hall door, he did not turn to lock the door after fleeing. Someone else knew where the key was, locked the door and then tried to mop up their footprints.

Sollecito's bloody footprint was on the bathmat.

Sollecito only called to report the 'burgulary' after the postal police had arrived to return Meredith's phones unexepectedly.

Amanda knew Meredith's throat was cut despite not seeing into the room and under the duvet covering the body, on the same day.

A shop owner testified Knox was waiting for his shop to open to buy cleaning products early in the morning.

Knox and Sollecito both contradicted the other's alibi.

Sollecito said the slept until 10 but his computer was switched on and music played in the early hours of the morning.

Knox put an innocent man in jail to get out of questioning, this was after 1 hour of questioning, not 5 days or even 12 hours.

She did not retract her statement against Patrick, a business man saw Patrick on the news and realised he was with him that evening, this led to Patrick's release.

I'm barely even started....

I haven't heard any of this, please continue!

AndonHandon

DexyDrain wrote: »

You forgot:

Both Micheli (Guede trial judge) and Massei agreed the 'break in' was staged. This was due to the shutters being closed when the rock was thrown from the inside, the glass still sitting on the 4m high window sill (unless Spider-Man climbed down from the roof) which would have been brushed or knocked off, nothing stolen apart from Meredith's phones etc.

Meredith's body was moved after she eventually died, her clothes then torn off and a partial clean up attempted.

Knox is the only person on the planet with a motive to make it 'look' like a break-in to cover the fact that Guede and Sollectio were let into the house by the front door.

The lamp from Knox's room was the only source of artificial light in her room, yet she had a shower and didn't notice it was gone. It had been used to help clean up certain incriminating areas of Meredith's room.

Knox failed to raise the alarm after returning back to the cottage and finding it abandoned with the front door open, faeces in a toilet, blood in the bathroom and bloody footprints in the hall outside Meredith's locked door.

Guede's footprints lead straight from the room out the hall door, he did not turn to lock the door after fleeing. Someone else knew where the key was, locked the door and then tried to mop up their footprints.

Sollecito's bloody footprint was on the bathmat.

Sollecito only called to report the 'burgulary' after the postal police had arrived to return Meredith's phones unexepectedly.

Amanda knew Meredith's throat was cut despite not seeing into the room and under the duvet covering the body, on the same day.

A shop owner testified Knox was waiting for his shop to open to buy cleaning products early in the morning.

Knox and Sollecito both contradicted the other's alibi.

Sollecito said the slept until 10 but his computer was switched on and music played in the early hours of the morning.

Knox put an innocent man in jail to get out of questioning, this was after 1 hour of questioning, not 5 days or even 12 hours.

She did not retract her statement against Patrick, a business man saw Patrick on the news and realised he was with him that evening, this led to Patrick's release.

I'm barely even started....

But, but . . . 'murica.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Another thing which I never read in all the media reports is whether Knox and Solecitto confirm or deny that they knew Rudi Guede and vice versa?

DexyDrain

Yes, Amanda and Meredith knew Rudy, whether Rudy and Sollecito knew each other is harder to tell. Rudy knew the boys who lived below the girls well and stayed there a couple of times, Amanda and Meredith joined them all at a party as well. Rudy was attracted to Amanda, perhaps even infatuated he asked several people if she was single. It seems then as the only connection Sollecito had with them was through being Amanda's boyfriend that Guede and Sollecito may not have known each other although they lived quite close.

v638sg7k1a92bx

DexyDrain wrote: »

Yes, Amanda and Meredith knew Rudy, whether Rudy and Sollecito knew each other is harder to tell. Rudy knew the boys who lived below the girls well and stayed there a couple of times, Amanda and Meredith joined them all at a party as well. Rudy was attracted to Amanda, perhaps even infatuated he asked several people if she was single. It seems then as the only connection Sollecito had with them was through being Amanda's boyfriend that Guede and Sollecito may not have known each other although they lived quite close.

Anyone else notice how the interviews with Amanda Knox are all very wishy washy, have very little substance and no facts? Can someone show me an interview with AK where the interviewer asked her why she implicated an innocent man?

v638sg7k1a92bx

Also, as someone who has a little more than a passing interest in this case as in not intimately aware of all the facts but would have more of an interest than what's in the front pages, I have yet to find out what Rudi's version of events were? Did he confess that AK and RS being involved in the murder?

DexyDrain

Janelle Few Respirator wrote: »

Anyone else notice how the interviews with Amanda Knox are all very wishy washy, have very little substance and no facts? Can someone show me an interview with AK where the interviewer asked her why she implicated an innocent man?

Having a PR team and a good bit of intelligence means all interviews will be fully prepped with questions provided in advance and only friendly or partisan interviewers will get anywhere near her. I would love for someone to ask why she hasn't paid the compensation she was ordered to pay by the court given she got a huge advance for her book.

Also, as someone who has a little more than a passing interest in this case as in not intimately aware of all the facts but would have more of an interest than what's in the front pages, I have yet to find out what Rudi's version of events were? Did he confess that AK and RS being involved in the murder?

He changed his story a couple of times but his main explanation is that he was to meet Meredith at the cottage after making a date at a nightclub the previous night. Her friends never saw him there or saw them meeting. They then started 'making out' but did not have sex as 'neither had condoms'. He had to rush to the toilet and had his earphones in when he thought he heard the door bell/knock. After a few minutes he heard a scream and he ran out of the toilet with his trousers hanging off and saw a guy standing over Meredith with a knife. He threatened Rudy and shouted 'black man found, black man guilty' before running out. He then went to get towels to try and stop the bleeding but became afraid he would be blamed for the murder so he fled.

First he said Knox was not there but in letters to his lawyers he says they were both there.

Interestingly, in a secretly recorded skype call while on the run, he seemed surprised to find out that 'they' had gone back and stripped/moved the body and covered her up.

Micheli, the judge who first found him guilty said his story was completely unbelievable and declared his testimony as unreliable.

seb65

Janelle Few Respirator wrote: »

Anyone else notice how the interviews with Amanda Knox are all very wishy washy, have very little substance and no facts? Can someone show me an interview with AK where the interviewer asked her why she implicated an innocent man?

Her implication of an innocent man happened because police found a text on her cell phone to Patrick Lumumba the night of the murder where he had said something about not needing her to work that night and she texted ok - see you later.

The Italians, not knowing the nuances of North American speak, took see you later literally, meaning she had planned to meet him later. That's why they thought he was involved.

Anyone who reads the first line of her confession - "I confusedly remember" could see this was not a real confession.

DexyDrain

seb65 wrote: »

Her implication of an innocent man happened because police found a text on her cell phone to Patrick Lumumba the night of the murder where he had said something about not needing her to work that night and she texted ok - see you later.

The Italians, not knowing the nuances of North American speak, took see you later literally, meaning she had planned to meet him later. That's why they thought he was involved.

Anyone who reads the first line of her confession - "I confusedly remember" could see this was not a real confession.

I think, bearing in mind she had only been questioned for over an hour when she said Patrick killed Meredith, that the written accounts she voluntarily gave of her own accord demonstrate a devious and dangerous mind.

At this point the police interviewing Sollecito noticed the soles of his runners looked remarkably similar to the footprints that actually turned out to be Rudy's. They confiscated his shoes and he told them that his previous statements were lies he told to protect Amanda. With this new information and the texts they confronted Amanda, within minutes she was framing Patrick.
They told her they had proof she was in the house, but given the determined clean up they performed, Knox was hedging her bets.

Her confession in the interview room was pretty strong, the following morning she wrote her confession down and it basically implies: 'if you have evidence I was there then Patrick did it, if it turns out you were bluffing about the evidence then it was a confused fantasy and I actually wasn't there'.

seb65

DexyDrain wrote: »

I think, bearing in mind she had only been questioned for over an hour when she said Patrick killed Meredith, that the written accounts she voluntarily gave of her own accord demonstrate a devious and dangerous mind.

At this point the police interviewing Sollecito noticed the soles of his runners looked remarkably similar to the footprints that actually turned out to be Rudy's. They confiscated his shoes and he told them that his previous statements were lies he told to protect Amanda. With this new information and the texts they confronted Amanda, within minutes she was framing Patrick.
They told her they had proof she was in the house, but given the determined clean up they performed, Knox was hedging her bets.

Her confession in the interview room was pretty strong, the following morning she wrote her confession down and it basically implies: 'if you have evidence I was there then Patrick did it, if it turns out you were bluffing about the evidence then it was a confused fantasy and I actually wasn't there'.

What source do you have that says she named patrick as the killer only one hour into the interrogation?

DexyDrain

seb65 wrote: »

What source do you have that says she named patrick as the killer only one hour into the interrogation?

The testimony of her translator Anna Donnino in court:
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Anna_Donnino%27s_Testimony_(English)
GM:
You were present during the interview of Amanda Knox on the night of the 5 and 6 November?
AD:
Yes.

GM:
Tell us what happened, when you arrived and what happened, except only, obviously, the declarations, which must not be mentioned or quoted or referred to.

AD:
I remember having received a telephone call from Assistant Lorena Zugarini, the precise hour exactly I’m not able to say, though orientation-wise it would have had to have been before 23:30 because I was already in bed and at the latest I go to bed more or less a little before that time. I had received this call and Assistant Zugarini had told me that I had to come into the Station because my expertise was required. And that’s what I did, I dressed myself and I went to the Station. You have to take into consideration that I don’t live in Perugia, I live outside, I’m about 40 km away, in the environs of Castiglione del Lago, so I didn't immediately turn up at the Station, I would have taken around three quarters of an hour, however I believe to have gotten there no later than half past midnight and at that point I had started to carry out my work.

GM:
At that point you had arrived and had commenced carrying your work of interpreting in the Amanda Knox interview?

AD:
Exactly.

She signed her first confession statement at 1.45am:
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/images/2/28/Knox_Statement_1.jpg

Later confession at 5:45am
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/images/5/50/Knox_Statement_545.jpg




Neither of these two points in time are in dispute.

Her PR team say she was interrogated for days and she was in the police station for hours on end when she confessed. This is an extraordinary exaggeration which is totally misleading. She actually had routine and quite short interviews over the several days since the body was found, trying to find out more about Meredith, her habits and friends.

She was not called in for questioning the night she broke down and confessed. Sollecito was asked to come in and clarify a few things from previous statements and Amanda went to the police station to accompany him. She was sitting waiting for Sollecito for hours, so while she was in the station for hours she was not being questioned during this waiting time. She was doing the splits and cartwheels etc. When Sollecito changed his story yet again, they called Amanda in for questioning at 11:30pm but didn't start the interview until her translator arrived at around 12:30.