Target air pistol?

Dewan

Where can I buy a reasonable quality target air pistol? Am based in Cork but will travel anywhere on the Island of Ireland for the right article.
I've been to several local dealers but none do pistols..
PM would be welcome.

Sparks

Tiernans in Wilkinstown are the dealers for Steyr air pistols; Kendall Monson in Dalkey would be the Feinwerkbau dealers (or at least they were last I looked). For IZH air pistols, you'll have to order from outside the state unless you find one going second-hand. Same for Morini, Anschutz and the others, though Intershoot.co.uk carries a few.

Dewan

Do you have contact details for Tiemans and Kendall Manson please? I've searched the web - no websites or any details.
Thanks

Sparks

PM sent...

tac foley

Nowadays all Olympic-style air pistols are driven by, well, air. This is mainly because the Green Party in Germany kicked up a real hissy fit a few years back and got the manufacturers of this type of pistol to change over from Co2. Because of this, you will certainly be able to buy one of the top of the range Co2 pistols for very silly money, by comparison with their newer, air-driven, descendants.

Earlier this in UK I bought a mint Steyr LP5 for £300 - the new version, that uses air, is well over £1200.

Might be a plan to think about buying over here.

tac

Sparks

It's certainly worth considering and something like a Tau-7 would have a long and good track record - the one problem is that you need to source the CO2 here, and while it'd be easy in the US (historically - and it goes well back before the Greens in Germany tac - the US pistols predominantly used CO2 and European ones predominantly used compressed air), the only source of CO2 I can think of in Ireland would be the CO2 gas capsules (NOT the green gas capsules) the airsoft people use; and I don't know if they're easily compatible, not having actually tried to use one for a target air pistol (has anyone else tried these?)

tac foley

Well, Mr Sparks Sir, all I know is that out here in the world, every fire extinguisher company sells Co2 gas bottles. That's where mine came from about nine years ago when I bought my first Co2 target pistol, a Feinwerkbau C55. Mine is a 25L bottle and, with a fill of two gas cartridges every month, has so far lasted me three years since the last refill.

As for who made who do what, well, your story and mine differ, I guess. My experience is obviously different to yours, but having been a member of the same Berlin gun club since 1981, we were in no doubt as to the reason behind the change. The couple of hundred of us there who shot and still shoot target air pistol suddenly found, in about 2003/4, that our Co2 pistols were being replaced on the dealers shelves wholesale by the new versions, powered by air.

Historically speaking, if you want to go back that far, Haemmerli made a single-shot target pistol in the 70s that was powered by Co2 [ the Co2 Master], but, as you rightly note, all others made here in Europe by the likes of Walther [and BTW, I have a small collection that you might like to see some day], Original, Feinwerkbau, EMGE and so on, were air-powered. However, the drive to Co2 by the main makers - Feinwerkbau, Walther and Anschutz, was the need to emulate the UIT .22 match pistol and its use in shooting standard target strings of five shots timed - something that no single-shot air pistol could do, but was very easy for a Co2 pistol. Hence the rise - temporarily - of the Co2 target pistol. Now that air is the rule of the day - they are no longer popular because of the immense amount of gas they release every time they are fired [sarcasm off]. One of my Godsons, at that time a pilot in the Luftwaffe, worked out that a single cow emits as much methane in one day as the amount of Co2 released by ten pistol shooters firing continuously for 628 days.

tac

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

all I know is that out here in the world, every fire extinguisher company sells Co2 gas bottles.

Never seen a fire extinguisher company have a high street store in Ireland tac. Seen fire extinguishers sold, yes, but never the internal parts for them (you have to have them serviced professionally in Ireland). Sodastream used to sell tanks of CO2 (and with a special adapter you could use those if you could still find a source for the tanks), but since they went out of popularity, the only other source of CO2 that is readily available to us here looks to be the CO2 canisters the airsoft guys use. You could get commercial catering canisters of CO2 for whipped cream guns I suppose, but I only know of one outlet that does them for a reasonable price (Nisbets in cork).

Historically speaking, if you want to go back that far, Haemmerli made a single-shot target pistol in the 70s that was powered by Co2 [ the Co2 Master], but, as you rightly note, all others made here in Europe by the likes of Walther [and BTW, I have a small collection that you might like to see some day], Original, Feinwerkbau, EMGE and so on, were air-powered.

Yes, but mostly they were SSP rather than PCA if I remember correctly - SSP pistols being easier to manufacture at the time.

However, the drive to Co2 by the main makers - Feinwerkbau, Walther and Anschutz, was the need to emulate the UIT .22 match pistol and its use in shooting standard target strings of five shots timed - something that no single-shot air pistol could do, but was very easy for a Co2 pistol. Hence the rise - temporarily - of the Co2 target pistol. Now that air is the rule of the day - they are no longer popular because of the immense amount of gas they release every time they are fired [sarcasm off].

There were slightly more real and relevant-to-shooters problems with CO2 though. The two main problems from the shooter's viewpoint were that :

• CO2 is just more expensive to produce in the long term. One air compressor and you have all the compressed air you'll ever need (because it's just compressed air, the raw ingredient's all around you); while CO2 needs to be chemically produced by industry (usually from methane); and
• CO2 pressure is wildly dependent on temperature - and in central Europe, as you know, we go from -20 in a good winter to +30 in a good summer, which translates to a variation in CO2 tank pressure from ~400psi to ~1000psi. Regulators back then weren't all that good and managing varying pressures, especially in something so weight-restricted as a pistol, so you had high variations in muzzle velocity relative to what you can now get from compressed air.

The reason we went with CO2 in the beginning at all was down to the technical issues with dealing with high pressure compressed air. Making compressed air tanks is much harder than making CO2 tanks because CO2 can be kept liquid under pressure at room temperature and so long as there's liquid in the tank, the pressure is about 50-60 bar; whereas with compressed air, it's 200 bar (or 300 bar if you've got a recent walther). It's also difficult to make a regulator that gives you the same muzzle velocity with every shot when the internal air pressure of the tank varies by over 200 bar as the tank discharges, and when the external atmospheric air pressure can vary (not so much of an issue in Europe, but in the US where you might be shooting in Colorado or in Florida or even in both during the one competitive season, it was an issue). It was easier to make tanks and regulators for CO2, but the results would never be as good as they were for compressed air - so in a way, CO2 going into decline was fairly inevitable once people figured out how to make good tanks and regulators in air pistol sizes and weights.

tac foley

Sparks - thank you for taking the time and the trouble to correct me.

Let me re-phrase my post - Do you not have, in the whole of the Republic, a single commercial gas-bottle filling company?

The company local to me that I refer to, Cromwell Fire, sells Co2 gas in THEIR fire extinguisher bottles, and sells the whole thing to you, or simply puts THEIR Co2 gas in YOUR fire extinguisher bottle [providing that they are currently certifed], for not a lot of money.

Please note that we are talking about fire extinguisher gas bottles, NOT milk bottles, in other words, the kind of fire extinguishers that you find on walls in school corridors, business premises, libraries and public places, and not the little one you have handy by the stove in case your fries catch fire. We are not, therefore, talking about a 'high street store', either, but a place that you might find on any trading estate.

Anyhow, I found these guys for ya - http://www.capitalfire.ie/fire-alarm-detection/portable-fire-extinguishers.html

Seems that they do refills....

tac

UnkieKev

Sparks wrote: »

It's certainly worth considering and something like a Tau-7 would have a long and good track record - the one problem is that you need to source the CO2 here, and while it'd be easy in the US (historically - and it goes well back before the Greens in Germany tac - the US pistols predominantly used CO2 and European ones predominantly used compressed air), the only source of CO2 I can think of in Ireland would be the CO2 gas capsules (NOT the green gas capsules) the airsoft people use; and I don't know if they're easily compatible, not having actually tried to use one for a target air pistol (has anyone else tried these?)

Just having a nose about and saw your post,

http://www.mainirishairsoft.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=660

That may be what he need's, Fit's a C02 bulb in with a feeding nozzle. Could help!

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

Let me re-phrase my post - Do you not have, in the whole of the Republic, a single commercial gas-bottle filling company?

We probably do; but whether or not they'd sell you a CO2 tank and refill it for you is another question. I know I never found a readily available source and I spent a while looking - but that doesn't mean one doesn't or can't exist.

Please note that we are talking about fire extinguisher gas bottles, NOT milk bottles, in other words, the kind of fire extinguishers that you find on walls in school corridors, business premises, libraries and public places, and not the little one you have handy by the stove in case your fries catch fire.

Yes, I know tac, it's a somewhat familiar subject.

Seems that they do refills....

Of fire exinguishers, but we could email them to ask if they'd sell a CO2 tank and do refills - it'd be worth knowing.

tac foley

Sir - MY Co2 bottle is a fire extinguisher bottle, and the company fills it up - last time it cost me £20 for the fill - expect it will be more next time.

On the other paw, my idea was to get the OP shooting a gun that he could afford more easily than the 1200euro+ cost of a new air pistol - as I noted, nobody wants the Co2 guns over here, hence the bargains coupled with the ease of getting the gas.

So how do your owners of modern air pistols get air? Are you allowed to haver air bottles? If not, how do your scuba divers get their air? The air bottles for pistols are nothing more than diver's bottles - at least, the one I have for my rifle is, coming, as it did, from a dive store.

And answering another point - ALL gas-propelled guns, air or Co2, come with adaptors to fill the canister from the gas bottle - usually via a regulator valve. You can also use a dedicated and highly-efficient pump to fill up the canister - bleeve me when I say that the last hundred strokes are real killers - it keeps you fit. 200 bar is not easy to pump, bearing in mind that your average family sedan is around 2 - 2.5 bar.

In finalising, I have to say that no serious target shooting is done with pistols that use the teeny Co2 Sparklet-type capsules. Fun guns [Umarex CP88, and all that lot] and a few semi-serious guns maybe, but look on a line-up on Youtube and all you'll see are the products of Feinwerkbau, Walther, Morini, the other Swiss one I can never remember, and Anschutz.

tac

IRLConor

tac foley wrote: »

So how do your owners of modern air pistols get air? Are you allowed to haver air bottles? If not, how do your scuba divers get their air? The air bottles for pistols are nothing more than diver's bottles - at least, the one I have for my rifle is, coming, as it did, from a dive store.

DURC refills off a standard SCUBA cylinder.

We're lucky enough to have a diving club within 50 yards of our range and they're kind enough to refill our cylinder for us.

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

Sir - MY Co2 bottle is a fire extinguisher bottle, and the company fills it up - last time it cost me £20 for the fill - expect it will be more next time.

Bully for you tac - but like I've said, I've never seen that over here.

On the other paw, my idea was to get the OP shooting a gun that he could afford more easily than the 1200euro+ cost of a new air pistol

I think we did mention IZH air pistols - at €250 new including delivery to my door, I think they'd meet that budgetary concern well, and as an SSP pistol, no hunting around for dive tanks or worrying about 5-year inspections or 10-year lifespans on the tanks on the pistol itself.

So how do your owners of modern air pistols get air? Are you allowed to haver air bottles? If not, how do your scuba divers get their air? The air bottles for pistols are nothing more than diver's bottles - at least, the one I have for my rifle is, coming, as it did, from a dive store.

Yup, usually by normal dive bottles with DIN adaptors, refilled at dive stores or dive clubs. Those, we have in abundance. It's the CO2 we don't seem to have much infrastruture for.

In finalising, I have to say that no serious target shooting is done with pistols that use the teeny Co2 Sparklet-type capsules.

Not directly, definitely.
Via an adaptor, maybe, but I don't know for sure.
Which is why I raised my concern in the first place tac - those teeny CO2 sparklet-type capules are the only readily available source of CO2 I've found here since the Sodastream crowd went the way of the cassette tape.

look on a line-up on Youtube and all you'll see are the products of Feinwerkbau, Walther, Morini, the other Swiss one I can never remember, and Anschutz.

And Pardini and a few from Hammerli, but mostly you'll see Steyr (the LP-1/2 and LP-10 being pretty much the top of the heap in modern air pistols)

tac foley

K.

Keep forgetting Steyr, which is odd, since I have one right here looking at me.

Yuppers, the many Umarex fun-guns that take a single bulb in the butt are fine for the fun-and-games that are so popular here, but are not competitive in any way on bullseye shooting. I have a few of them, nd great fun they are, too.

tac

rowa

Boc and air products sell small cylinders of co2 gas for welding and medical purposes, its not difficult to set up an account , getting it into smaller bulbs or whatever for pistols might be more difficult.

http://www.boconline.ie/products/products_by_type/index.asp

http://www.boconline.ie/products/products_by_type/industrial_gases/inert_gases/carbon_dioxide_inert.asp

Sparks

That looks about perfect rowa - their LV size CO2 tank looks perfect. If the adaptors match, you'd be sorted. Nice one!

tac foley

Uh, Rowa, old floon, it doesn't go into smaller bulbs or whatever for pistols. It goes into fire extinguishers that do not have the fire extinguisher head on them but a regulating valve with an adaptor. My cylinder has an ordinary handwheel valve, BTW, but my previous cylinder had a squeeze-type trigger. Put the cylinder back on your gun and off you go for about 120-140 shots.

For anybody still awake and interested - this is the sequence of actions -

1. Remove the empty cylinder from your pistol and put it in the freezer for half a hour or so. It has to be at least 20 degrees colder than the ambient temperature of the room for the gas to flow.

2. When it has gotten nice an cold, you, wearing suitable gloves, screw it on to the adaptor on the Co2 bottle, and

3. Turn the whole thing upside down to make the liquified gas flow from the bottle into the cylinder, and open the valve....

4. You'll see the immediate change in the gun cylinder as the frost disappears as the Co2 goes in. This takes about 5-10 seconds on my bottle.

5. Close the valve on the Co2 bottle and carefully remove the filled cylinder - it WILL hiss and fizz until its own valve operates - it will be cold, and the escaping gas is VERY cold, having turned from a liquid under high pressure to a gas.

6. Weigh the filled cylinder of a good set of scales in grams - and bleed off the excess if necessary to bring it to the correct filled weight. You are now good to go for around 120-140 shots. Your gun tells you when it is getting low - on my Feinwerkbau it simply goes phut, and on my Steyr it goes ..............................zilch.

7. Repeat the loading process when empty.

tac

rowa

I'll have to take your word for it tac as co2 and air pistols are something i have never used or had anything to do with, i would like one but the fact that they need a licence and all the bs that entails puts me off.

boc have agents around dublin and the country , i go to hills hire in deans grange for argon gas so they should be able to supply co2 depending on the demand, boc do know how to charge for bottle rental and refills but with the amount an airgunner would be using it won't be breaking the bank. Pubs might be another option as small bottles of co2 are used by publicans to put bubbles in beers.

Sparks

rowa wrote: »

small bottles of co2 are used by publicans to put bubbles in beers.

Pretty sure that the bubbles in beer come from natural sources of CO2 (the yeast used in brewing) and I thought that pubs use nitrogen to pressurise the lines to the pumps?

dax121

Sparks wrote: »

Pretty sure that the bubbles in beer come from natural sources of CO2 (the yeast used in brewing) and I thought that pubs use nitrogen to pressurise the lines to the pumps?

i think rowa is right they use co2. or at least they use to when i worked in a pub 5 years ago.
also some of ur local firestations are able to refill empty scuba tanks for a small fee

rowa

Sparks wrote: »

Pretty sure that the bubbles in beer come from natural sources of CO2 (the yeast used in brewing) and I thought that pubs use nitrogen to pressurise the lines to the pumps?

I have heard people using small bottles of co2 from pubs for welding when stuck but that was in the uk,

tac foley

rowa wrote: »

I have heard people using small bottles of co2 from pubs for welding when stuck but that was in the uk,

As I'm often reminded when posting here, 'autres pays, autres facons...' as we say.

tac