Should children leave school at 14?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-15146240
Cut school leaving age to 14, says Sir Chris Woodhead

The school leaving age should be cut to 14, a former chief inspector of schools in England has said.
Sir Chris Woodhead told the Times that this would give less academic students a better chance of learning a trade.
He said it was a "recipe for disaster" to force teenagers to study English and maths right up to the age of 18.

Sounds like a backward step to me or is it an acceptance that some are simply wasting their (& the teachers) time staying on.

Would have probably made sense when there was a shortage of labour "at mill" but whet trade would they learn now.

freeze4real

Why would one leave school at the age of 14 ?

Most of those who left at transition year are doing nothing or doing what majority of what school leavers do at a young age which is on the dole.

At the age if 18 I had no clue what I wanted to be.

Imagine what a 14yr would think..

Cabaal

Idiotic step to be honest,
At 14 your very much a teenager and haven't a clue what you want to do with your life, allowing you the choice to leave school is very short sighted.

Joey the lips

This is just a ploy to save on enforcement of kids going to school. Its nice way to say " Our resources are stretched so if kids want to leave and there parents wont keep them on then let them leave after all we should be concentrating on more intelligent kids."

Saila

this was normal in the 50's here I think

Lando Griffin

Cabaal wrote: »

Idiotic step to be honest,
At 14 your very much a teenager and haven't a clue what you want to do with your life, allowing you the choice to leave school is very short sighted.

I beg to differ.

Ask any 14 year old girl what they would like to be and they will say Model, pop star or actress.
Ask any 14 year old boy what they would like to be and they will say Footballer pop star or astronaught.

smk89

Should children leave school at 14?

Only the thick ones, throw them in the forest and wait for nature to take its course.
Give any survivors wildlife tv shows

RachaelVO

Seems like a GIANT step back to me! I arsed around after the LC til I was 19/20 before I settled on a college course, and I still don't do what I studieds. At 14 I'd even less of a clue!

RachaelVO

Lando Griffin wrote: »

I beg to differ.

Ask any 14 year old girl what they would like to be and they will say Model, pop star or actress.
Ask any 14 year old boy what they would like to be and they will say Footballer pop star or astronaught.

The realistically achievable careers?

Standard Toaster

Just what the UK needs....more feral kids running around with no prospects.
Fabulous idea! Woolhead indeed....

gonedrinking

RachaelVO wrote: »

Seems like a GIANT step back to me! I arsed around after the LC til I was 19/20 before I settled on a college course, and I still don't do what I studieds. At 14 I'd even less of a clue!

And thats exactly why leaving school at 14 is a good idea. You need to be a mature adult and have some life experience before you find yourself and know what you want to do with you life. People should leave school at around 14 and then return to education in their mid twenties or later and learn what they want to learn then.

I arsed around at school and choose a career without really thinking about it too much or knowing what exactly work would be like in my career. Now I'm mature and have some life experience I know what I'm interested in and I have gained a real thirst for knowledge. I would love to go back to education and embark on a different career.

I think people might be misunderstanding what he is proposing. He believes that some children who are 14 should not be in an academic education situations ( knows as schools ) They should instead be in a combined work learning situation, he is not proposing that they be out on the streets.

For example a 14 could choose to become a chef, she/he would spend 2 day's in work and 3 days in a learning situation where they would concentrate on applied English and Maths and the academic side of their training, thus at 18 you would have someone who has half their training done and has a high standard of literacy as well, to me it sounds like a good ideas as the pupil would end up with a skill at 18 and not just a poor/ average leaving cert and then start their training.

pickarooney

Lando Griffin wrote: »

Ask any 14 year old boy what they would like to be and they will say Footballer pop star or astronaught.

There's zero chance of that.

starlit

To be honest I think its silly. A person at that age hasn't learnt an awful lot about life really at that age. Not at an age to make their own decisions without having consulted parents.

Say by the age of 16 or 17 you can make up your own mind about things and think that is the right age to leave school, they are nearly going into adult hood by 18 and they have a better chance of getting work then. Doing things for themselves and being adults really. They be slightly more mature than someone at 14 anyway. In my eyes you are still a child at 14 just that hormones and adult like tendencies can get in the way it just them learning to grow up.

Learning never stops doesn't stop even when you do leave school no matter what age!? Doesn't make a difference but don't think you are mature enough to leave school at 14, 16 or 17 maybe but any younger I think is ridiculous. You are more or less throwing away a decent education and decent chance of getting work whether you go to college or not. Surely the junior cert and leaving cert is worth having??

L.Jenkins

pickarooney wrote: »

There's zero chance of that.

A leave them alone. If wasters fine young people want to get ejected of this plane, then let them go.

ScumLord

doovdela wrote: »

To be honest I think its silly. A person at that age hasn't learnt an awful lot about life really at that age.

They won't learn much if anything about life in school. I think schools aren't really working and many many people would be better off learning a skill really well under an apprenticeship setting. There's absolutely no benefit to some people being forced to listen to stuff they've no interest in, it does no one any good and if anything gives people a disdain for authority and learning.

Education shouldn't be about just filling children's heads up with factoids and seeing how much they can recall at the end of the year.

Temptamperu

Saila wrote: »

this was normal in the 50's here I think

So was child rape and torture... the 50s ireland is not a great place to pull inspiration from.

Son Of A Vidic

Christ 16/17 is young enough, never mind 14. My career path resembles nothing like I thought it would be when I was in school. My subject choices ect, ended up being totally wrong. If anything, they should be adding a couple of years to the school leaving age. How a kid can make critical life decisions at these young ages is beyond me.

RachaelVO

gonedrinking wrote: »

And thats exactly why leaving school at 14 is a good idea. You need to be a mature adult and have some life experience before you find yourself and know what you want to do with you life. People should leave school at around 14 and then return to education in their mid twenties or later and learn what they want to learn then.

I arsed around at school and choose a career without really thinking about it too much or knowing what exactly work would be like in my career. Now I'm mature and have some life experience I know what I'm interested in and I have gained a real thirst for knowledge. I would love to go back to education and embark on a different career.

Leave school at 14 and do what? I'm no expert, but I was watching a documentary on children, and at that age group your brain does not function properly. They have difficulty in differentiating peoples reactions, because the neural pathways that developed when they were younger have changed. That age group needs to have routine and regimented routine, so what would you suggest a few years in the army? (I have no real objection to that in principal, but I think it's a bit extreme)!

theillest

Alot of you are looking at this in the wrong way. I dont think any government would advise dropping out and going on the dole. It should be compulsory to stay in some sort of a state run institution.

If at 14 people were given options other than school,eg. Fas type courses or something practical,I think it would be far more benificial than children who dont want to go to college or do exams going to school for the sake of it. After my jouiner cert I had no intrest in being in school but stayed there with the idea that "only stupid people don't do their leaving cert".

I think children who are not academic should be givin the option to improve on skills that will be needed in the world of employment,rather than going in to school every day with no homework done and no intrest,because all that does is disrupt the children that do want to learn and go to 3rd level education.

ScumLord

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

My subject choices ect, ended up being totally wrong.

did you learn that in school or after you left? If you see my point there, you can't know who you are until you leave school and live a bit.

starlit

ScumLord wrote: »

They won't learn much if anything about life in school. I think schools aren't really working and many many people would be better off learning a skill really well under an apprenticeship setting. There's absolutely no benefit to some people being forced to listen to stuff they've no interest in, it does no one any good and if anything gives people a disdain for authority and learning.

Education shouldn't be about just filling children's heads up with factoids and seeing how much they can recall at the end of the year.

Fair enough it isn't sometimes but still at 14? in all honesty at 14 a person is still a child in my eyes!? At 16 or 17 then ya, learn something like a life skill if school isn't for them. But getting an education is a lot more important than just bunking off and not going to school any more what would you do like? At 14 they are a child not meant to work, say 16 or 17 that's fair enough as they are nearly reaching adulthood.

In all fairness I see your point but still I don't want to be talking to someone who hasn't a notion of how to conduct an interesting and intellectual conversation that it ends up boring? Though they might think its mindless brainless stuff, fair enough its harder for them to learn stuff rather they do stuff my practical means everyone is different in terms of educational ability but people stand a better chance of being able to handle a working environment the longer they stay in school that's what I am getting at.

I see ya that's true, but depending on career aspirations school does have a special role to play!? You never stop learning regardless!? doesn't necessary have to be gobbledegook stuff!?

ScumLord

doovdela wrote: »

Fair enough it isn't sometimes but still at 14? in all honesty at 14 a person is still a child in my eyes!? At 16 or 17 then ya, learn something like a life skill if school isn't for them. But getting an education is a lot more important than just bunking off and not going to school any more what would you do like? At 14 they are a child not meant to work, say 16 or 17 that's fair enough as they are nearly reaching adulthood.

they're not bunking off they're getting a chance to educate themselves in different ways.

I really think we should be educating people to be good people instead of filling them up with a particular amount of information and hoping for the best.

starlit

RachaelVO wrote: »

Leave school at 14 and do what? I'm no expert, but I was watching a documentary on children, and at that age group your brain does not function properly. They have difficulty in differentiating peoples reactions, because the neural pathways that developed when they were younger have changed. That age group needs to have routine and regimented routine, so what would you suggest a few years in the army? (I have no real objection to that in principal, but I think it's a bit extreme)!

I agree, at 14 even 17 your career choices can affect you for the rest of your life but that can change!? Even at 17/18/19 people make either the right or wrong choice with their career choices. At 14 its even harder to judge what kind of career path you want to go at that age, you are still learning and your educational development can stretch beyond the age of 14 even if its not for you there are other alternatives.

College isn't for everyone but I still think kids now a days should get the best of their education as possible and go as far as up as they can. It's like they are giving up if they leave at 14, they are still young they don't know what its like to be an adult they might think they know but they don't! Unless its a genuine reason should a child leave school at 14 but I can't see what the problem is, you can leave school at 16 like after the Junior Cert?! You spend most of your primary education prep for the JC why waste all that time in school and study and hard work and throw all that away for nothing when you could have a better chance of getting a job!?

I agree with RachaelVO, a child's brain hasn't fully developed, you might think it has by 18 but in actual fact its between the ages of 21-25! A human brain doesn't fully develop until then when the cognitive and ability to judge things. Explains a lot about judgement and decision making and from that point of view.

Its life experiences and increasing intelligence and cop on that improves judgement from a certain point of view. That last part in the pre-frontal lope/cortex doesn't fully develop until mid 20's at least! So a child of 14 hasn't much thought and judgement, they can misjudge things a lot more than say someone of 24 like!? Its like learning to drive the older and more experience you get the better your judgement as you age! The younger you are the likely chances are you will misjudge things!? Fair enough if its a valid excuse school isn't for you but at least try, you won't know unless you don't try and take a risk even if its just as far as Junior Cert!?

mikemac

It's not long ago that Irish lads were quitting school at 16 and pulling up to several hundred a week for labouring on sites. Often cash in hand
A big wage for most anyone

Those days are gone now

x in the city

dolanbaker wrote: »

Sounds like a backward step to me or is it an acceptance that some are simply wasting their (& the teachers) time staying on.

Would have probably made sense when there was a shortage of labour "at mill" but whet trade would they learn now.

if you want a dead end job you can leave at 12...why stay 2 extra years.

starlit

ScumLord wrote: »

they're not bunking off they're getting a chance to educate themselves in different ways.

I really think we should be educating people to be good people instead of filling them up with a particular amount of information and hoping for the best.

Those options are there for those after the age of 16 what does it matter its makes no difference but at the same time at 14 come on like!? They are still children!? They won't know unless they haven't tried!? Then at 16 they can decide what they want to do and my means its their choice to do the alternatives if it means they are education themselves different but at the same time an education is and education that go a long way. How would we learn to read and write otherwise?

In my opinion they aren't old enough to make such a big decision about their education and career. Jut let them decide what option subjects to do for their JC. Some schools have the option of LCA where they learn Life and job skills as well as study. They have the option to do a PLC and then go to College if they wish depends what career they want pursue. While the LCA tends to focus more on the traditional practical/apprentice type careers though. Those options are there already why reduce the age to choose a career path that may or may not be for them.

I see your point but still you need to be be good at certain subjects to get to a certain career path? You couldn't go to college otherwise? I mean to say even to work in a shop you need a degree now a days not just a JC/LC or practical and educational alternative to suit their needs fair enough but its there when they are 16 why rock the boat for those at 14. It just create uproar in this country.

sh1tstirrer

Lando Griffin wrote: »

Cabaal wrote: »

Idiotic step to be honest,
At 14 your very much a teenager and haven't a clue what you want to do with your life, allowing you the choice to leave school is very short sighted.

I beg to differ.

Ask any 14 year old girl what they would like to be and they will say Model, pop star or actress.
Ask any 14 year old boy what they would like to be and they will say Footballer pop star or astronaught.

They are only the dreamers and don't represent all 14year olds. You shouldn't watch so much reality tv because you are getting sucked in by it.

theillest

All of you people are thinking from a persepctive of a person who is a diligent worker,capable of studying for long hours and learning off reams and reams of irelevent bull****.

I for one was not.I am much better at going and physically doing something rather than sitting down writing essays and trying to retain information that has no use. It can seriously knock confidence of people who are 16 and 17 going to do their leaving cert espically with all the unnessacary pressure schools put on students. And I am sure there are thousands if not tens of thousands of students in school right now who are the exact same.
There is no doubt in my mind that the Irish education system is one of the most backward and pointless in the western world.You are not thought to think for yourself,you just learn to retain information. There is little or no "Education" involved. Dropping out at 14 you would learn far more about the world and how it works rather than sitting in a class writing essays on W.B Yeats. But if English or poetry is something you have intrest in you should be catered for and be helped expand your knowledge of it.Rather than having 30 people in a class have to learn it all,but half the class take the piss because they couldnt care less.
I wont say I encourage 14 year olds to drop out,but for some of them it would be far better than spending 3 years in school just messing and getting in to trouble because at the end they probably wont get enough points to get in to a college or what ever,so the 3 years they spent messing would have been far better spend in the real world aquiring useful skills.
If they are thought the way of the world instead,by the time they are 18 or 19 they know if they want to work at a desk,on a site,be an entreprenur etc etc..

gigawatt

I thought that at the moment teenagers can leave school once they have completed the juniour cert, wouldn't this mean they are legally entitled to leave school at around the age of 15 or 16?
I do agree that a huge amount of people would be more suited to further training in skills such as chef/baker/butcher/carpenter/mechanic/etc.
the education system should be set up to accommodate those who would prefer to do this, maybe 2 or 3 days per week in class (theory) and the other 2 or 3 days on the job (practical)
this is the norm in some other european countries and at least they finish their education with a good standard of literacy/maths and also have a practical skill or qualification.

4leto

I agree with him for some people (but as to how you determine who those people are is another matter)

We all shared a class with them, they just simply have no interest or motivation or perhaps ability in academic schooling and can't wait till they can go.

I imagine this does not do much for their self esteem as they fall further and further behind.

Then when "some" get out into the real world they thrive, whether it is a trade or a business. I think somehow they should be encouraged to find what they are interested in.

pacquiao

dolanbaker wrote: »

Sounds like a backward step to me or is it an acceptance that some are simply wasting their (& the teachers) time staying on.

Would have probably made sense when there was a shortage of labour "at mill" but whet trade would they learn now.

seems to me this man is pretty smart. He is right, and we all know not everyone is good at rote "learning" or should i say, being a parrot? Some people are good with their hands,others are good with numbers. Makes perfect sense.

sh1tstirrer

pacquiao wrote: »

dolanbaker wrote: »

Sounds like a backward step to me or is it an acceptance that some are simply wasting their (& the teachers) time staying on.

Would have probably made sense when there was a shortage of labour "at mill" but whet trade would they learn now.

seems to me this man is pretty smart. He is right, and we all know not everyone is good at rote "learning" or should i say, being a parrot? Some people are good with their hands,others are good with numbers. Makes perfect sense.

I wouldn't agree with you. A person could be good with their hands but they will still need to figure out problems with numbers. You won't be good at problem solving if you leave school at problem 14.

sh1tstirrer

pacquiao wrote: »

dolanbaker wrote: »

Sounds like a backward step to me or is it an acceptance that some are simply wasting their (& the teachers) time staying on.

Would have probably made sense when there was a shortage of labour "at mill" but whet trade would they learn now.

seems to me this man is pretty smart. He is right, and we all know not everyone is good at rote "learning" or should i say, being a parrot? Some people are good with their hands,others are good with numbers. Makes perfect sense.

I wouldn't agree with you. A person could be good with their hands but they will still need to figure out problems with numbers. You won't be good at problem solving if you leave school at problem 14.

What I am more concerned about is how 17 and 18 year olds are encouraged to go straight to third-level education with no breaks.

This is the cause of massive drop-out rates and people having to pay for a second degree.

pacquiao

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with you. A person could be good with their hands but they will still need to figure out problems with numbers. You won't be good at problem solving if you leave school at problem 14.

What sort of problems are you talking about? Be realistic.

x in the city

at the age the best you could hope for is saying the following in a somewhat constructive manner.

"'sup homies, y'all going out 2nit brovvers? d y'all want to get some smokes later ?"

wild_cat

Temptamperu wrote: »

So was child rape and torture... the 50s ireland is not a great place to pull inspiration from.

Usually they left school to work on the family farm or family business. Not to stand around on street corners. If you left you worked.

Friel

Is there plans to make students study maths and English up to 18 or is he saying that it's already happening? I was in school to 18 yet I dropped english and maths at the end of 5th year, so that isn't right.

Anyway, letting people drop out at 14 is madness. No one knows what they want to do at 14.

Noreen1

I think 14 is very young, but there is no doubt that some young people will never be academic - hence forcing them to pursue an academic path until they are 18 is a complete and utter waste of their time, and that of their teachers.
In addition, continuous (perceived) failure must be absolutely soul-destroying for these kids.

LCA is a very worthwhile option for some people, but places are limited.

Hence, some scheme whereby students spend half the week at school, learning the essential subjects, and possibly some practical subjects, together with some work experience "workshops" could only be beneficial, imo.

mickrock

School is largely a glorified childminding service, with education as a secondary function.

They should be allowed leave when they can read and write and have adequate numeracy skills.

Eric Cartman

I knew what I wanted to do at 14 , I started my company at 14 repairing computers while in school , Im still self employed doing the same thing , Im not saying it would work for everyone , but even with a junior cert and a bit of extra training in business skills or something it wouldnt harm some kids

holystungun9

yes, and get them into some of those ghost estates around the country. Nothing like a mortgage to make you feel grown up.

pragmatic1

ScumLord wrote: »

They won't learn much if anything about life in school. I think schools aren't really working and many many people would be better off learning a skill really well under an apprenticeship setting. There's absolutely no benefit to some people being forced to listen to stuff they've no interest in, it does no one any good and if anything gives people a disdain for authority and learning.

Education shouldn't be about just filling children's heads up with factoids and seeing how much they can recall at the end of the year.

I agree but things like math, problem solving and being able to process large tracts of information actually comes in handy in the real world.

The House Of Wolves

Lando Griffin wrote: »

I beg to differ.

Ask any 14 year old girl what they would like to be and they will say Model, pop star or actress.
Ask any 14 year old boy what they would like to be and they will say Footballer pop star or astronaught.

I'm 3rd yr, everyone wants to be a teacher, doctor, garda or farmer. I'd love to be a radio DJ, my friend wants to work in micro-biology. Of course some people harbour dreams of being famous, but most want to do something normal. :pac:

Cat Melodeon

This is like the streaming that goes on in Germany where 'bright' kids are send to university track schools, middling kids go to normal comprehensives and the rest go to vocational schools. They're trying to dismantle that system as it has been proven to cause huge inequalities based on socioeconomic, racial & ethnic background. 'Bright' kids basically equates to children of professionals. Poor kids get locked into lower streams early on and are not given the same chances to develop. This is in a country where there is a highly regarded and well-established apprenticeship and vocational training program, but yet it has been shown to widen social inequality and they are getting rid of it. I don't see the merit of introducing a failed system when most educational research points to school leaving at 18+ as far and away the best model for encouraging young adults into further training, education and employment.