Crisis

Bbbbolger

Im sorry. I'm sure there have been threads like this before but I dont want to take an answer from a different context. Recent events in and around my life has really got me doubting God. I'm a practicing Catholic and truly belive in God but I've seen 8 young students die in my school in the last 7 years, with another student very sick. Also, every night I say the same prayer...I pray for me and the girl I have loved for 3 years to remain happy and together. Unfortunately things have now ended between us. I understand it was a selfish prayer and that there are much more important things that people pray for but these things really make me wonder...is God looking over us? The one and only thing I asked of God didnt happen and 8 lives have been cut far too short. Some people I'm very close with were good friends with more than a few of these deceased students. How is God being fair to them? People tell me everything happens for a reason but I see no reason in all this. I'm not really sure what I'm asking for here...I just didn't know where else I could say and ask these things. Thanks to anyone who replies.

Robert ninja

I'm sorry to hear about this... your situation sounds pretty harsh... props to you for being strong thus far. I can only reccomend you talk to your loved ones about this. As good as forums are for sharing ideas and debating, all you're going to get is either pats on the back saying it's all god's plan or non-believers saying the opposite and neither of those are very helpful I would suspect right now for your current feelings. I understand you may feel lost and that's okay. Try talking to friends you trust and know you can have a fulfilling conversation with.

But maybe I'm wrong... maybe you can get more out of this forum than I expect of it.

Onesimus

Hi

I understand where you are coming from and how your feeling ( at least somewhat ). But I dont think a public forum is going to help you. I suggest you go to confession and/or have an appointment with a priest to tell him how your feeling and ask him questions. if you are not comfortable with doing this offline you can do it online on ''Catholic answer forums'' ( google it it comes up straight away ) in the apologist section where you can ask a priest a question. Or you can do it on the EWTN website www.ewtn.com

These will be of more help to you than I ever could be.

I admire your honesty of the situation your in and how you feel.

Onesimus

Roger Hassenforder

I'd go with bob the ninja on this, online you'll get polar opposites throwing in their 6pence worth about god's plans/tests of faith etc. to those that view that the life is completely indifferent to people.

life is what you make of it, we've one go of it. asking questions means you're at a cross road, where you go next is your decision. good luck with the path you take, but listen to several sides before deciding.

BTW,why would you need confession? Have you done anything wrong?

Bbbbolger

I presume confession was mentioned just as a means of seeing a priest. First off I'd like to thank you all for the kind words. They really do help. I never expected to get a proper answer here. I just wanted to be pointed in the right direction and you've done that for me. I'm sure the websites that were posted will be of great help. It's tough for me to talk about stuff like this with my friends due to the fact that we're relatively young. Deep talks involving spirituality and religion dont rank high on the list of topics as I'm sure you can imagine. Thanks again. I'm going to try those websites now. You've all been a great help!

Fanny Cradock

If you have an hour or so to spare, I highly recommend this talk that John Lennox gave in the aftermath of the Christchurch earthquake. I've personally found it to be one of the better attempts at answering a question -- the question of evil existing alongside an all-powerful and all good God -- that I don't really think can ever be fully answered.

The sound quality isn't great and there is fairly a lengthy introduction given before Lennox hits the stage. However, he respects the problem of evil (natural evil) and in no way attempts to belittle the suffering people suffer in it's wake. He has a fascinating story to tell.

Roger Hassenforder

the link doesnt work for me, and i dont think i'd have the patience to sit throug it all, but does he say whats "natural evil"?
is an earthquake or a volcano naturally evil?

Fanny Cradock

You lack the patience to listen to an hour long talk on a subject you are interested enough in to ask a question on

Anyway... http://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2011/03/full-audio-from-the-john-lennox-nz-tour/ - third talk down: An evening with John Lennox: God, Suffering, and the Christchurch Earthquake.

For a definition of natural evil see google. If you want to read more of the various attempts to answer difficult questions like "why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?", "How can a good God allow X, Y and Z?" and so on then delve into the world of theodicy.

The Quadratic Equation

Man in league with Satan causes evil and suffering, not God.

Roger Hassenforder

thanks for the link Fanny, as i wait for the thing to save:
an earthquake causes suffering right?
so how is this attributable to either Satan or God?
Did Satan cause it?

Roger Hassenforder

yada yada, 5.20 in, still waffling the intro

Fanny Cradock

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

yada yada, 5.20 in, still waffling the intro

Yes, I mentioned there is an introduction. It's customary when presenting speakers to the audience. I don't know what your beef is, Roger, but I'm really not interested in reading a running commentary. If it's such an imposition then don't listen to it.

liamw

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

yada yada, 5.20 in, still waffling the intro

What happens at 5:21?

Roger Hassenforder

John Lennox comes on.

Roger Hassenforder

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Yes, I mentioned there is an introduction. It's customary when presenting speakers to the audience. I don't know what your beef is, Roger, but I'm really not interested in reading a running commentary. If it's such an imposition then don't listen to it.

No beef Fanny, it’s just when i see vacuous posts like that of Quadratic Equation, i don’t see how the OP is being served, which is surely our raison de etre here?
Thanks for the link, Interesting talk, he was entertaining, humorous, poignant and erudite. Having listened to the entire speech however, I do not think he satisfactorily addressed my question.
Is there such a thing as natural evil? I.e. is an earthquake 'evil'? Or as the OP asks, why do bad things happen to purported good people?
With regard to the earthquake, which triggred your link, the closest he came an explanation was a brief mention of plate tectonics, which he says is a result of the earth being so hospitable, for it produces the magnetic field which deflects cosmic rays. Why is there a need for a magnetic field, can we not be given some divine shield?
His whole argument is predicated on the assumption that Jesus/god dies on a cross to demonstrate he is with us in our suffering, that we cant have love without hate, and that come judgment day, justice will be done and seen to be done. He aslo trots out the standard argument re. atheism and lack of morals etc.
Ironically, he quoted Epicurus early on, yet failed to deliver. All in all highly unconvincing.
I continue to hold the view that nature does not care, Bacteria certainly do not care, the universe does not care about a few creatures on the skin of a small watery planet hurtling around a rather small star.
Im not forcing my view down anyones throat, but would encourage the OP to consider alternative views of his unfortunate predicament, than what a priest or catholic answer forum has to offer.

The Quadratic Equation

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Is there such a thing as natural evil? I.e. is an earthquake 'evil'

No. That's just nature getting on with nature, while your in the wrong place at the wrong time.
You have the God given free will to live in a non earthquake zone, build safer structures etc.

PatricaMcKay2

Bbbbolger wrote: »

Im sorry. I'm sure there have been threads like this before but I dont want to take an answer from a different context. Recent events in and around my life has really got me doubting God. I'm a practicing Catholic and truly belive in God but I've seen 8 young students die in my school in the last 7 years, with another student very sick. Also, every night I say the same prayer...I pray for me and the girl I have loved for 3 years to remain happy and together. Unfortunately things have now ended between us. I understand it was a selfish prayer and that there are much more important things that people pray for but these things really make me wonder...is God looking over us? The one and only thing I asked of God didnt happen and 8 lives have been cut far too short. Some people I'm very close with were good friends with more than a few of these deceased students. How is God being fair to them? People tell me everything happens for a reason but I see no reason in all this. I'm not really sure what I'm asking for here...I just didn't know where else I could say and ask these things. Thanks to anyone who replies.

Boohoo.

Your attitude is extremely far from Christian.

And you live in extremely pampered circumstances

Roger Hassenforder

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Boohoo.

Your attitude is extremely far from Christian.

And you live in extremely pampered circumstances

now that is a Christian reply.

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

No. That's just nature getting on with nature, while your in the wrong place at the wrong time.
You have the God given free will to live in a non earthquake zone, build safer structures etc.

Im sure the 5 week old killed would share your view.
if only they had you for a parent.....

The Quadratic Equation

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Im sure the 5 week old killed would share your view.
if only they had you for a parent.....

Festus

Bbbbolger wrote: »

Im sorry. I'm sure there have been threads like this before but I dont want to take an answer from a different context. Recent events in and around my life has really got me doubting God. I'm a practicing Catholic and truly belive in God but I've seen 8 young students die in my school in the last 7 years, with another student very sick. Also, every night I say the same prayer...I pray for me and the girl I have loved for 3 years to remain happy and together. Unfortunately things have now ended between us. I understand it was a selfish prayer and that there are much more important things that people pray for but these things really make me wonder...is God looking over us? The one and only thing I asked of God didnt happen and 8 lives have been cut far too short. Some people I'm very close with were good friends with more than a few of these deceased students. How is God being fair to them? People tell me everything happens for a reason but I see no reason in all this. I'm not really sure what I'm asking for here...I just didn't know where else I could say and ask these things. Thanks to anyone who replies.

I feel for you Bbbbolger - I too have prayed for a relationship to work only for it to end. This world is not an easy place to deal with but then again we are asked to bear our crosses, what ever they may be. Our reward comes in the next life, not this one. Your prayer was not selfish, it was human. If it helps you may have been spared a greater pain by having the relationship end when it did. I say may because it is for God to know, and it probably ended because God is watching over you. It may well be years before you can accept someone saying something like this so for what it's worth it is more than ten years since I made a similar prayer and even now I still wonder.

Like many I have seen people die before their time as well. It's not easy and trying to figure out why is a fools game. God has His reasons. Someone once said He only takes the good young. I hope that is true. Perhaps the rest of us are still alive because we have more sins to work out and pay for. As a practising Catholic I am sure you are aware that it is better to pay for our sins in this life rather than the next.

Pax Christi

FC

Bbbbolger

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Boohoo.

Your attitude is extremely far from Christian.

And you live in extremely pampered circumstances

While I understand that I cant expect God to grant my every prayer do you really think that seeing 8 young people I knew personally die, each in individual circumstances, to be extremely pampered circmstances? Regardless of what anyone believes you should show some respect for the dead. They were lost before their time and don't need someone heartless like you dishonouring their lives.

Fanny Cradock

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Thanks for the link, Interesting talk, he was entertaining, humorous, poignant and erudite. Having listened to the entire speech however, I do not think he satisfactorily addressed my question.

What a curious objection! Unless you actually asked him the question then I don't see how he can be blamed for not answering it. Perhaps you should email him.

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Is there such a thing as natural evil? I.e. is an earthquake 'evil'?

Who are you asking? Lennox or myself? I can't be sure given that in a recording of a talk given a year ago you you expect him to answer a question you raised yesterday.

Let me clarify on small thing. No one -- at least Lennox and myself -- is suggesting that earthquakes are evil. They are natural processes and therefore devoid of moral intentionality. If you want to know more about theodicy then Google is your friend.

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Why is there a need for a magnetic field, can we not be given some divine shield?

No idea. I also don't know how I could ever answer that.

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I continue to hold the view that nature does not care, Bacteria certainly do not care, the universe does not care about a few creatures on the skin of a small watery planet hurtling around a rather small star.

I gather Lennox feels the same. He isn't claiming that the universe is somehow concious (Christians are monotheists, not pantheists), nor is he going down the quasi-religious route that Sagan so poetically endorsed. Lennox, like other Christians, is suggesting that God is the creator and sustainer of the material universe.

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Im not forcing my view down anyones throat, but would encourage the OP to consider alternative views of his unfortunate predicament, than what a priest or catholic answer forum has to offer.

The problem of evil is solved by believing that the universe neither cares a jot for any life nor is capable of caring. Lennox readily admits this. If I recall correctly he shares a anecdote of a conversation he had with two people who though they would shatter his world by pointing out the obvious conclusion of a purely materialistic universe.

That Man is the product of causes which had not prevision of the end they were achieving; are but the outcome of accidental collocation of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the age, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of Man's achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins -- all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand.

I think that some people are of the opinion that they deserve a rousing cheer because they stare into what they see as the bleak finality of all life and of the universe and remain resolutely and steadfastly atheist. The sub-text here is the idea that believers in God only believe because they cant face the truth.

Roger Hassenforder

somewhat defensive seeing as you introduced him and suggested i listen.
I did and was unimpressed. Sorry.
( & as i recall he did attempt to justify the existence of natural evil, along the lines of we must take the good with the bad)

oh well, i'd better stare back into the abyss, and rejoice in the cheering

Fanny Cradock

Bbbbolger wrote: »

While I understand that I cant expect God to grant my every prayer do you really think that seeing 8 young people I knew personally die, each in individual circumstances, to be extremely pampered circmstances? Regardless of what anyone believes you should show some respect for the dead. They were lost before their time and don't need someone heartless like you dishonouring their lives.

Ah, I wouldn't worry about that poster. It's easy to rattle off words on the internet and not consider their impact.

Another resource I would recommend is just about anything by OS Guinness. He is a man acquainted with suffering. And like Lennox he doesn't attempt to explain away suffering. Rather, and this is something that Roger seems to have missed, he silhouettes evil and suffering against the light of the hope of the Gospel.

In addition to this above talk, I would recommend this essay by David B. Hart written in the wake of the 2004 Tsunami. It is entitled Tsunami and Theodicy. While I don't think that he is entirely successful in answering the problem of evil -- and to reiterate, I don't necessarily see this as a failing on this part because I think the question is so huge that we will always grapple with it -- it's nevertheless a thoughtful and challenging attempt to answer on of the biggest questions we face.

Finally, look towards the Psalms. There is a world of despair and hope found within.

Fanny Cradock

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

somewhat defensive seeing as you introduced him and suggested i listen.
I did and was unimpressed. Sorry.
( & as i recall he did attempt to justify the existence of natural evil, along the lines of we must take the good with the bad)

oh well, i'd better stare back into the abyss, and rejoice in the cheering

I don't know if you just missed the crux of his talk, or if it's an inevitable outcome of attempting to summarise the product of an hour into a sentence, but that isn't an accurate representation of what Lennox was saying. Though even if this was his point -- that is to say, we all just have to muddle through and make the best of it -- I hardly think you are in the position to criticise him because of this. The hope you have as an atheist is precisely that. Our lives will always be played out in deference to the workings of a universe that is as indifferent to our suffering as it is to our pleasure.

I actually suggested that the OP listen to the talk. My hope was that the understanding of one Christian would be enlightening to another. Given your dismissive posts prior to listening to the talk I'm not surprised that you remain unimpressed after listening to it. I put that down to consistency.

Bbbbolger

Thanks for all the interesting links. Whether they answer questions or not I always enjoy broadening my understanding of things. You never know when a debate might erupt and you'll need to pull a quote regarding the existence of evil out!

Roger Hassenforder

we'll have to leave it at that Fanny I suppose.
&
Good luck with your quest OP!