Do Republicans really want McGuinness?

A Primal Nut

It seems that McGuinness is suddenly ashamed of his past and rejecting all the principles he has allegedly stood and fought for over the last few decades. It seems he thinks he has the republican base tied up, so he is going all after the moderate vote.If I was a hardcore republican, I'd be annoyed that he is letting go of all his principles in order to become president.

For example:

He says he will meet the Queen, something most republicans and all Sinn Feiners didn't want Mary McAleese to do. They also carried out numerous protests when the Queen visited. The same people seem satisfied that McGuinness has pledged to meet the Queen if required.

He is becoming president of 26 counties rather than 32 counties, which shows he is fairly satisfied with the 26-county state.

He has done nothing to advocate for a United Ireland during the election campaign. If he was true to his principles, he should be saying things like "I will use the presidency to help fight and campaign for a United Ireland". He didn't even mention United Ireland in the closing argument of the Late Late debate; yet this has been the central issue of his political life. At least Gerry Adams always makes sure to remind his audience that a United Ireland is a long term goal. It's like McGuinness is desperate to show the average voter that he is a moderate, no threat to the state, etc. I know he has said that he would still like a United Ireland but he seems to be playing it down rather than making it the forefront of his campaign.

He is running as an Independant, instead of as a Sinn Fein candidate. Presumably for electoral reasons (again makes him seem more acceptable to the moderate voter).

And most importantly,

He is denying his IRA past as if he is ashamed of it. In the early 1970's he said in Court he was a member of Oglaigh na hEireann and proud of it. What a difference 40 years makes. If I was an IRA member or IRA supporter, I'd be pissed off that McGuinness is rejecting his IRA past, given that so many people had died for the cause and most Sinn Fein think the IRA are heroes or freedom fighters. Yet McGuinness is ashamed to admit it, lest he lose some precious votes. (and every hardcore republican/sinn feiner knows he was a member of the IRA and its army council until the last decade at least, so don't try to pull that one).

Yet, most Sinn Fein supporters and IRA sympathisers seem happy with all this - that McGuinness is sacrificing his principles to become Irish President. Why is McGuinness becoming president so important to the republican movement, that they can accept lying about their principles. McGuinness thought it was ok to bomb, maim and kill people for a United Ireland, but alienating some potential moderate voters seems a step too far. If he thinks that sticking to the principles he says he fought for will stop him from becoming president, then he shouldn't be trying to become president.

Seen as he is so fond of mentioning Mandela, it would be a similiar sitcheeaytion to if Mandela became president of Apartheid South Africa and didn't make ending Apartheid a priority, or started rejecting the ANC. Not that I would compare Mandela to McGuinness of course; but he seems fond of it so in that sense its an apt comparison.

Wolfe Tone

How many times did he say "A New Ireland"?

He is not ashamed of his IRA past, and I didn't get that impression at all tbh... He just said he left in 74, he certainly was not apologetic for joining the IRA and fighting.

Liam Byrne

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

How many times did he say "A New Ireland"?

That was one phrase that bugged me, because coming from McGuinness you didn't know if he meant one that we'd all want - i.e. one where the bankers and politicians don't ride roughshod over us - or one that he wants - i.e. one that includes Northern Ireland and that he'd gladly ride roughshod over us instead to achieve.

Penfailed

A Primal Nut wrote: »

What a difference 40 years makes.

Exactly. I'd like to think that things change as time passes. It'd be boring otherwise.

LordSutch

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

He is not ashamed of his IRA past, and I didn't get that impression at all tbh... He just said he left in 74, he certainly was not apologetic for joining the IRA and fighting.

Exactly, and that's precisely why he is not Presidential material. There are just too many murky questions about him that will pop up from time to time from various grieving families (victims) of the PIRA, who McGuinness may, or may not have been part of (I guess he was), the association with the Provo's is there for all to see, its not pleasant, and McGuinness makes no apologies.

KeithAFC

It takes an honest man/woman with deep convictions to stick to his/her principles and Martin simply doesn't have any. He is only interested in being seen as being president.

This new Ireland thing is simply nonsense and please no person here buy it. The president of the Republic Of Ireland is only representing that state. Martin Mcguinness being president will not change that. So he is using political speak and actually being really dishonest with what he is saying.

But again, deep convictions and values mean nothing to him.

Wolfe Tone

Deep convictions and values mean nothing to MMG... This is a man who has dedicated his life to the cause, don't talk absolute rubbish.

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Deep convictions and values mean nothing to MMG... This is a man who has dedicated his life to the cause, don't talk absolute rubbish.

No, he has dedicated 40+ years so far of his life. He has abandoned the Republican cause because he is now going against everything a 32 county Irish Republican supporter would believe in and follow.

He is running to be the president of the Republic Of Ireland which is 26 counties. Not 32 and this a very important fact. He believes the Irish Army (Óglaigh na hÉireann) is the only legitimate Irish Army.

He is not consistent either. He had no problem with many of the actions which happened over the years and now all of a sudden he is sorry and apologetic about it and even said he felt sorry for the RUC victims families and British Army victims families. Martin would never have said that and Republicans who do believe in the legitimacy of the IRA and a United Ireland would not say that.

"As far as I am concerned the Irish Army are Oglaigh na hEireann and I stand by the forces of this State.

Victor

You can't win an election by alienating the middle ground.

Liam Byrne

Victor wrote: »

You can't win an election by alienating the middle ground.

Keith has a point, though - it's not that long ago that McG wouldn't have given a flying f--- about alienating anyone, even to the point of joining a murderous organisation.

So he has changed.

That said, he hasn't changed enough to be acceptable to true middle ground.

Sunnyisland

Know quite a few ex norris supporters who will be giving MMG a vote ,bit surprised by it actually.

LordSutch

realies wrote: »

Know quite a few ex norris supporters who will be giving MMG a vote ,bit surprised by it actually.

I don't get that^ it's the equivalent of voting for Dana one day, and Michael D Higgins the next
Two completly opposite ends of the spectrum.

gandalf

I assume they were voting for Norris as a protest and have now transferred to McGuinness as the protest vote candidate. Its interesting that they would switch their allegience to a man who has a lot of blood and misery on his hands.

A Primal Nut

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Deep convictions and values mean nothing to MMG... This is a man who has dedicated his life to the cause, don't talk absolute rubbish.

And how does becoming president of 26 counties and lying about his IRA past further that cause?

He never said New Ireland referred to a United Ireland. He didn't even mention United Ireland last night.

Victor wrote: »

You can't win an election by alienating the middle ground.

So he is tossing his principles aside?

RandomName2

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Deep convictions and values mean nothing to MMG... This is a man who has dedicated his life to the cause, don't talk absolute rubbish.

Arguably he instead dedicated the cause to his life. It is ostensibly a slight difference, but it is in reality significant.

KELTICKNIGHTT

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Deep convictions and values mean nothing to MMG... This is a man who has dedicated his life to the cause, don't talk absolute rubbish.

we know what he did,killing people and now lying about everything
more a gangster than president material
even now can't even tell the truth,no surprises there

thebman

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Keith has a point, though - it's not that long ago that McG wouldn't have given a flying f--- about alienating anyone, even to the point of joining a murderous organisation.

So he has changed.

That said, he hasn't changed enough to be acceptable to true middle ground.

I don't think he is trying to. I think Sinn Fein are trying to reposition themselves to win more middle ground vote in the next election to become the second biggest party in the state TBH.

I think that is why he is running in the first place as when what is seen as one of the heads of the IRA is seen to be changing then people will be more open to the rest of the organisation.

gandalf

thebman wrote: »

I don't think he is trying to. I think Sinn Fein are trying to reposition themselves to win more middle ground vote in the next election to become the second biggest party in the state TBH.

I think that is why he is running in the first place as when what is seen as one of the heads of the IRA is seen to be changing then people will be more open to the rest of the organisation.

Well if he is running to boost Sinn Feins presence for the next election that raises the question of why he is running as an independent.

thebman

gandalf wrote: »

Well if he is running to boost Sinn Feins presence for the next election that raises the question of why he is running as an independent.

That allows him to talk about how he is independent from Sinn Fein so they can't bring up any Sinn Fein comments and try to associate them with him but everyone knows he is Sinn Fein so it doesn't stop everyone associating him with Sinn Fein.

KELTICKNIGHTT

thebman wrote: »

That allows him to talk about how he is independent from Sinn Fein so they can't bring up any Sinn Fein comments and try to associate them with him but everyone knows he is Sinn Fein so it doesn't stop everyone associating him with Sinn Fein.

are you trying to say his not a member of sein fein party when everyone knows he is,even do he's claiming to be independent for this election only

DreadedJudge

When he spoke last night of "A New Ireland" it gave me chills because I'm wondering what he really means by that, has he just changed the phrase of "united Ireland" to "A new Ireland"? He then went on to say he would use the presidency to embarrass the people who ruined the country, that isn't very presidential. It would be a car crash waiting to happen to have this man represent the country as it's first citizen. I don't trust him so he won't be getting my vote

thebman

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

are you trying to say his not a member of sein fein party when everyone knows he is,even do he's claiming to be independent for this election only

I'm saying not registering as a member of Sinn Fein for the purposes of the presidential election allows him to divorce himself from the history of the party for the election.

Nobody can bring up any prior Sinn Fein controversies that might embarrass him if he is running as an independent candidate because they have nothing to do with him because he is running as an independent.

I don't think anybody really believes he has nothing to do with Sinn Fein now he is running as an independent though and I think that is the desired effect.

KELTICKNIGHTT

thebman wrote: »

I'm saying not registering as a member of Sinn Fein for the purposes of the presidential election allows him to divorce himself from the history of the party for the election.

Nobody can bring up any prior Sinn Fein controversies that might embarrass him if he is running as an independent candidate because they have nothing to do with him because he is running as an independent.

I don't think anybody really believes he has nothing to do with Sinn Fein now he is running as an independent though and I think that is the desired effect.

anything can be brought up about mc guinness as he a candidate,if he doesnt like it,quit

Mr.Micro

DreadedJudge wrote: »

When he spoke last night of "A New Ireland" it gave me chills because I'm wondering what he really means by that, has he just changed the phrase of "united Ireland" to "A new Ireland"? He then went on to say he would use the presidency to embarrass the people who ruined the country, that isn't very presidential. It would be a car crash waiting to happen to have this man represent the country as it's first citizen. I don't trust him so he won't be getting my vote

Just think of the Taleban, IRA/SF style. :eek::eek::eek:

Undemocratic, intolerant, violent, unjust, prejudicial, dogmatic, isolationist etc

thebman

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

anything can be brought up about mc guinness as he a candidate,if he doesnt like it,quit

Yes anything can be brought up and if it is about Sinn Fein and not directly linked to McGuinness, he will simply answer, I am running as an independent candidate.

Liam Byrne

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Deep convictions and values mean nothing to MMG...

Hmmm.......I can think of 2 particular convictions that mean a lot to us, and reflect the reasons why he's completely unsuitable as the president of this state.

KELTICKNIGHTT

thebman wrote: »

Yes anything can be brought up and if it is about Sinn Fein and not directly linked to McGuinness, he will simply answer, I am running as an independent candidate.

any part of the candidate can be brought up in the election specially as it election for president of Ireland

blahfckingblah

LordSutch wrote: »

Exactly, and that's precisely why he is not Presidential material. There are just too many murky questions about him that will pop up from time to time from various grieving families (victims) of the PIRA, who McGuinness may, or may not have been part of (I guess he was), the association with the Provo's is there for all to see, its not pleasant, and McGuinness makes no apologies.

I don't get this because he is getting told off for being too close to the IRA and for abandoning them in the same thread. Either way he does someone wrong it seems. For me I think that its great that a the majority of people can get on without violence and long may it last.

nordydan

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Deep convictions and values mean nothing to MMG... This is a man who has dedicated his life to the cause, don't talk absolute rubbish.

Indeed, convictions are a rare commodity in the modern free state. Especially to the subhuman D4 brigade

lmaopml

nordydan wrote: »

Indeed, convictions are a rare commodity in the modern free state. Especially to the subhuman D4 brigade

Huh?

I don't doubt that Martin has convictions, and should be commended in many regards for the role he played in the peace process - It had to be somebody at the end of the day who was willing to sit down and swallow their pride on both sides in order to bring about the will of the vast majority of people on the Island. He rose to that challenge along with many others...

Personally, I don't 'hate' him or any such thing - However, whether he is Presidential material is the question, and whether he represents Ireland the way Irish people want to be represented right now....He's done some good work, no doubt, I hope he keeps it up, keeps his ass firmly planted across a table talking - but personally, while I believe he is an excellent speaker etc. (actually head and shoulders above many of the candidates - He's a clever guy ) I'm not sold on the idea that he would make the best President. Actually, I'm convinced that it's not where I would like to see him - but that's just me.

stewie01

A Primal Nut wrote: »

It seems that McGuinness is suddenly ashamed of his past and rejecting all the principles he has allegedly stood and fought for over the last few decades. It seems he thinks he has the republican base tied up, so he is going all after the moderate vote.If I was a hardcore republican, I'd be annoyed that he is letting go of all his principles in order to become president.

For example:

He says he will meet the Queen, something most republicans and all Sinn Feiners didn't want Mary McAleese to do. They also carried out numerous protests when the Queen visited. The same people seem satisfied that McGuinness has pledged to meet the Queen if required.

He is becoming president of 26 counties rather than 32 counties, which shows he is fairly satisfied with the 26-county state.

He has done nothing to advocate for a United Ireland during the election campaign. If he was true to his principles, he should be saying things like "I will use the presidency to help fight and campaign for a United Ireland". He didn't even mention United Ireland in the closing argument of the Late Late debate; yet this has been the central issue of his political life. At least Gerry Adams always makes sure to remind his audience that a United Ireland is a long term goal. It's like McGuinness is desperate to show the average voter that he is a moderate, no threat to the state, etc. I know he has said that he would still like a United Ireland but he seems to be playing it down rather than making it the forefront of his campaign.

He is running as an Independant, instead of as a Sinn Fein candidate. Presumably for electoral reasons (again makes him seem more acceptable to the moderate voter).

And most importantly,

He is denying his IRA past as if he is ashamed of it. In the early 1970's he said in Court he was a member of Oglaigh na hEireann and proud of it. What a difference 40 years makes. If I was an IRA member or IRA supporter, I'd be pissed off that McGuinness is rejecting his IRA past, given that so many people had died for the cause and most Sinn Fein think the IRA are heroes or freedom fighters. Yet McGuinness is ashamed to admit it, lest he lose some precious votes. (and every hardcore republican/sinn feiner knows he was a member of the IRA and its army council until the last decade at least, so don't try to pull that one).

Yet, most Sinn Fein supporters and IRA sympathisers seem happy with all this - that McGuinness is sacrificing his principles to become Irish President. Why is McGuinness becoming president so important to the republican movement, that they can accept lying about their principles. McGuinness thought it was ok to bomb, maim and kill people for a United Ireland, but alienating some potential moderate voters seems a step too far. If he thinks that sticking to the principles he says he fought for will stop him from becoming president, then he shouldn't be trying to become president.

Seen as he is so fond of mentioning Mandela, it would be a similiar sitcheeaytion to if Mandela became president of Apartheid South Africa and didn't make ending Apartheid a priority, or started rejecting the ANC. Not that I would compare Mandela to McGuinness of course; but he seems fond of it so in that sense its an apt comparison.

LOL, what rubbish.

Bannasidhe

stewie01 wrote: »

LOL, what rubbish.

LOL - What a counter-argument.

Victor

A Primal Nut wrote: »

So he is tossing his principles aside?

It could be argued that he is moderating his position, so as to get elected, so that he can implement those principles.

blahfckingblah wrote: »

I don't get this because he is getting told off for being too close to the IRA and for abandoning them in the same thread.

I think different people are doing that.

Banbh

I was going to vote for Norris as I enjoyed seeing the Establishment stooges running around wetting themselves but after weeks of commentators, RTE celebrities, 'journalists', politicians, 'news' programmes condemning him, I'm now convinced a vote for McGuinness will hurt them more.

maygitchell

I would love YourGuinness! Especially if you paid for it and i just swiped it

blahfckingblah

Victor wrote: »

I think different people are doing that.

Hence sentence 2 of my post, no matter what he does or says he seems to be insulting someone of being viewed on turning his back on someone. Republicanism is a complicated and diverse thing, theres no way he can please everyone

PARKHEAD67

blahfckingblah wrote: »

Hence sentence 2 of my post, no matter what he does or says he seems to be insulting someone of being viewed on turning his back on someone. Republicanism is a complicated and diverse thing, theres no way he can please everyone

Im voting for him.An honest politician whos well able to stand up for his beliefs.The amount of incoherent guff he puts up with...He has his beliefs and he sticks by them, not like some of the jokes going for it.Gay Mitchell FFS.Theres more personality on a nettle.

blahfckingblah

Gay Mitchells Campaign seems to be based around ensuring Martin Mcguinness doesn't get in, and as far as i can see it is diverting people towards McGuinness. He has my vote.