Burton, foxers and the end of employment rights

micro_dot

I wish Joan Burton would stop talking about dole abuse. People doing foxers and nixers, cheating real businesses out of trade and cheating us out of taxes as well. These are the guys that lost their jobs in the construction bust. Those breakfast roll guys whose bellies hang out in a perfect round and haven't been able to remove their wedding rings in twenty years.

To set up your own company, to legalise the foxers, you need a C2 cert. You need to pay your taxes and the paye and prsi of anyone working for you. Fair enough. But you are working for a developer who has offloaded all his payroll and contracted it out to the the C2 guy. As a contractor, the C2 guy moves way down the list of people who get paid by the developer - you can't dodge on wages as much as you can dodge on paying a contractor. And not only is there no payment security for the C2 guy, he can't get the dole either or other comforts that keep the wolf from the door. Wages are paid as long as a company is solvent; other creditors are not.

So the law abiding guy bears all the stress and debt of a construction job, to maybe be paid - up to six months later. On a foxer, at least you don't have the taxes hanging over you.

Not a sound from Labour about employment rights being weasled away. David McWilliams and others were right, there is a revolution going on in employment - the age of contractors. The construction industry monster ruined the economy, now employment rights too. The upper echelons of the civil service know how to revolt when their wages are threatened with taxes. Everyone else is supposed to be a sponger.

Delancey

I certainly agree that employment rights are being eroded in the current climate , just look at the internships on offer - positions which a few years ago would have commanded a proper wage/salary are now unpaid.

Employers who once would have been considered ' good ' are now paying staff less for more hours with few if any benefits - take those working in Terminal 2 at Dublin Airport for example.

There is a race to the bottom....

Slideshowbob

micro_dot wrote: »

The construction industry monster ruined the economy

incorrect. It was the government, regulation and banking sector that ruined the economy.

The construction industry only boomed because too much credit was made available to it.

You agree?

headmaster

If you know someone doing fixers, nixers, foxers, whatever, then ring the tax fraud office of the revenue, phone no 01 6474000. If more people would do this, good people would pay less and Ireland would get back to work again. The same with people claiming social welfare, 01 7043000.

Revenue Fraud, 01 6474000 eg, the black economy.

Social welfare fraud 01 7043000 eg, single mothers in relationships and claiming.

OMD

Delancey wrote: »

There is a race to the bottom....

I wish people would stop using this stupid meaningless phrase. It is union speak and is total bollocks

not yet

OMD wrote: »

I wish people would stop using this stupid meaningless phrase. It is union speak and is total bollocks

Why is it a stupid phrase.....

We have had this ''race to the bottom'' for 3 years now, The greedy business sector in this country wish for nothing more then the minimum wage be abolished.

Then they could employ people at 4 euro an hour, a la new york etc, where some guys cleaning the streets earn 3 dollars per hour. You don't need to be a trade unionist to see the only people who benefit from a race to the bottom is greedy,fat business people.

Slideshowbob

what r foxers?

srsly78

That may be the case in construction, but in other fields many people actually prefer being contractors and not permanent employees.

problemchimp

Slideshowbob wrote: »

what r foxers?

nixers

amacca

OMD wrote: »

I wish people would stop using this stupid meaningless phrase. It is union speak and is total bollocks

I respectfully beg to differ.

dvpower

not yet wrote: »

the only people who benefit from a race to the bottom is greedy,fat business people.

... with the entrails of half eaten swans dripping from their mouths.

OMD

not yet wrote: »

Why is it a stupid phrase.....

We have had this ''race to the bottom'' for 3 years now, The greedy business sector in this country wish for nothing more then the minimum wage be abolished.

Then they could employ people at 4 euro an hour, a la new york etc, where some guys cleaning the streets earn 3 dollars per hour. You don't need to be a trade unionist to see the only people who benefit from a race to the bottom is greedy,fat business people.

OK define "Race to the bottom" We still have a relatively high minimum wage.http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php?title=File:Minimum_wage_(1)_(EUR_per_month,_as_of_1_July_2010).png&filetimestamp=20110207162234
We have a very highly paid workforce. The majority of workers (those earning less than 40K a year) will pay less tax than almost any other country in Europe. If people become unemployed they have generous welfare by international standards. What is this mythical bottom?

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php?title=File:Tax_rate_indicators_on_low_wage_earners.png&filetimestamp=20110712142515

If it is a race to the bottom then we are loosing the race by a massive margin.

Debtocracy

OMD wrote: »

OK define "Race to the bottom" We still have a relatively high minimum wage.http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php?title=File:Minimum_wage_(1)_(EUR_per_month,_as_of_1_July_2010).png&filetimestamp=20110207162234
We have a very highly paid workforce. The majority of workers (those earning less than 40K a year) will pay less tax than almost any other country in Europe. If people become unemployed they have generous welfare by international standards. What is this mythical bottom?

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php?title=File:Tax_rate_indicators_on_low_wage_earners.png&filetimestamp=20110712142515

If it is a race to the bottom then we are loosing the race by a massive margin.

The bottom is not the point at which wages no longer sustain the purchase of basic living elements, but the point at which wages no longer sustain the servicing of debt. It is futile to evaluate the wages in Ireland on a purely nominal basis. When wages decrease, costs will at least somewhat decrease, but debt will stay constant. Try telling an indebted Irish person on the minimum wage how prosperous they are compared to their EU counterparts. :mad:

OMD

Debtocracy wrote: »

The bottom is not the point at which wages no longer sustain the purchase of basic living elements, but the point at which wages no longer sustain the servicing of debt. It is futile to evaluate the wages in Ireland on a purely nominal basis. When wages decrease, costs will at least somewhat decrease, but debt will stay constant. Try telling an indebted Irish person on the minimum wage how prosperous they are compared to their EU counterparts. :mad:

So we are racing to the bottom for those with mortgages who have had cuts in wages greater than interest rates have fallen in last 3 years. For those without debt we are close to the top?

It is still a stupid phrase. We are not in a race with anyone so the term race is stupid. We are not anywhere close to the bottom by any reasonable measure, so that is stupid too. So like I said the phrase is bollocks.

Yahew

I fully understand why someone getting 5-10 hours work a week wont bother his arse declaring it. Anything more and I have less sympathy. The world is full or grey. Its never black and white.

djpbarry

Slideshowbob wrote: »

incorrect. It was the government, regulation and banking sector that ruined the economy.

Surely the people who splurged on property they couldn’t afford should also shoulder some of the blame? Supply would not have existed without demand.

not yet wrote: »

We have had this ''race to the bottom'' for 3 years now....

According to the CSO, average weekly earnings in Ireland declined just 0.9% between Q2 2010 and Q2 2011. This compares with a decline of 1.2% over the previous 12 month period. Contrary to popular belief, there is little evidence that salaries in Ireland have declined significantly.

Debtocracy wrote: »

Try telling an indebted Irish person on the minimum wage how prosperous they are compared to their EU counterparts.

Someone on the minimum wage isn’t likely to have significant debts. If they do, those debts were presumably built up in the acquisition of possessions, which must be factored into any assessment of prosperity. I find it hard to have sympathy for anyone who has built up large debts but has nothing to show for it.

cee_jay

Yahew wrote: »

I fully understand why someone getting 5-10 hours work a week wont bother his arse declaring it. Anything more and I have less sympathy. The world is full or grey. Its never black and white.

Why? Why just 5-10 hours? Why have that as a cutoff?

Why should these people be claiming and receiving their full social welfare payment while earning on the side?
They are able to work and claim for days not work, and retain a portion of their SW payment. So it is fraud if not declared.

flutered

headmaster wrote: »

If you know someone doing fixers, nixers, foxers, whatever, then ring the tax fraud office of the revenue, phone no 01 6474000. If more people would do this, good people would pay less and Ireland would get back to work again. The same with people claiming social welfare, 01 7043000.

Revenue Fraud, 01 6474000 eg, the black economy.

Social welfare fraud 01 7043000 eg, single mothers in relationships and claiming.

i have to disagree with you, IMO michael d higgins has 4 pensions, plus a tds salary plus expenses, according to the polls he looks likely to become our next president, david norris has been drawing a disibility pension of 2.4 per month while being a sitting senator, gay mitchell was/is an european rep for years his expenses for last year were about 94k, he has his mep wages and maby a pension from his time as a td. da bertie just read these fourms, the clowen dempsey et al massive pensions fingelton a 1m retirement bonus in cash, i will do no faurther, it is time to get rid of the snouts as what they have taken out of the exchure for years makes the guy doing the nixer look like scrouge.

Einhard

not yet wrote: »

Why is it a stupid phrase.....

We have had this ''race to the bottom'' for 3 years now, The greedy business sector in this country wish for nothing more then the minimum wage be abolished.

Then they could employ people at 4 euro an hour, a la new york etc, where some guys cleaning the streets earn 3 dollars per hour. You don't need to be a trade unionist to see the only people who benefit from a race to the bottom is greedy,fat business people.

You talk about the greedy business sector, but couldn;t one equally apply that to the unions, and their members. I mean, the unions have a mandate to ensure that their members are paid the highest wages possible. Business leaders have a mandate to counteract that. They're two sides of the one coin, and both act for much the same motives- to protect the interests of their party, with monetary gain being the predominant interest.

I see nothing wrong with this arrangement. Indeed, it's necessary to have balance. Yet you deem one side greedy and rank, while the other escapes such censure. I don't understand that.

HellFireClub

not yet wrote: »

We have had this ''race to the bottom'' for 3 years now, The greedy business sector in this country wish for nothing more then the minimum wage be abolished.

Then they could employ people at 4 euro an hour, a la new york etc, where some guys cleaning the streets earn 3 dollars per hour. You don't need to be a trade unionist to see the only people who benefit from a race to the bottom is greedy,fat business people.

You are talking out of your arse. The lads I know running their own businesses at the moment are the lads that can't sleep at night because they are now personally having to stand over their business debt in order to keep the doors open and people in jobs, so if the business fails and their business loan or overdraft gets called in, they could lose their home.

The "fat cats" I'm seeing are the overpaid civil servant beaurocracy that are choking the country with their selfish, hopelessly backward and stupid mentality.