Gramadach bunaithe ar an bhfoghraíocht? Grammar based on pronunciation?

Irlandesaaa

Ok, so...(still not very certain whether to start a thread in irish or english here) i guess it helps to introduce the topic in english anyway (so that foreign linguists can also make a contribution^^): how come the irish grammar is "based on pronunciation"? is it linguistically possible? what I mean is the basis of a language is nothin else than rules from the grammar - which may or not be obeyed in all dialects but everyone agrees they are kind of a guide to understand them all - and exceptions are created with current (mis)use of them.

The thing is spoken language undergoes changes way faster than the written one, and there's no couple that speaks just alike. So basically if pronunciation were the basis of a language, shouldnt each person be able to create their own grammar for the language? it isn't possible in Irish. So why people say Irish grammar is based on pronunciation?! I may be gettin something wrong, but it just doesn't make sense for me. Maybe Irish people have a better explanation than mine ^^'

deirdremf

Irlandesaaa wrote: »

Ok, so...(still not very certain whether to start a thread in irish or english here) i guess it helps to introduce the topic in english anyway (so that foreign linguists can also make a contribution^^): how come the irish grammar is "based on pronunciation"? is it linguistically possible? what I mean is the basis of a language is nothin else than rules from the grammar - which may or not be obeyed in all dialects but everyone agrees they are kind of a guide to understand them all - and exceptions are created with current (mis)use of them.

The thing is spoken language undergoes changes way faster than the written one, and there's no couple that speaks just alike. So basically if pronunciation were the basis of a language, shouldnt each person be able to create their own grammar for the language? it isn't possible in Irish. So why people say Irish grammar is based on pronunciation?! I may be gettin something wrong, but it just doesn't make sense for me. Maybe Irish people have a better explanation than mine ^^'

I never heard that theory before.
What a lot of people (learners etc.) say is that they can't relate the pronunciation to the spelling - but the fact is that the spelling is related to pronunciation (not a big surprise) but that certain strange spelling rules are in existence to cater for different pronunciations in different dialects.
e.g.
1. the briathar saor in the past tense:
rugadh - was born
Munster: rugag
Connacht: rugav or rugú
Ulster: rugú
2. ao as in caora
Munster: caéra
Connacht: caíra
Ulster: caíra or cura (not really, it's difficult to represent the sound; something like the u in rud, but drawn out; also common in Gàidhlig)
Hope that helps somehow.

Irlandesaaa

deirdremf wrote: »

Ulster: caíra or cura (not really, it's difficult to represent the sound; something like the u in rud, but drawn out; also common in Gàidhlig)

well, in my view written language doesn't represent sounds at all. It's nothing but a guide to remember the sounds you're used to (and not everyone is used to the same sounds, as your own examples show)

(my best guess!)


Don't get me wrong though. I'm thankful for your contribution here I didnt know there were so many different pronunciations for "caora" but my point here is grammar, instead of vocab. I've read grammar rules for the irish language are based on pronunciation, so that a non-grammatical construction would be one that "doesn't sound nice". (lackin examples though...does anyone know?). So far, so good...but some people go even further in the theory and say the irish grammar rules that apparently dont make sense are probably based on pronunciation. For example the noun declensions.


I dont see any logic in such a statement! it's okay to have various different pronunciations for the same word, coz it happens to every language. But if the grammar itself was based on pronunciation, shouldnt each county have its own gramadach na gaeilge?

deirdremf

Irlandesaaa wrote: »

well, in my view written language doesn't represent sounds at all. It's nothing but a guide to remember the sounds you're used to (and not everyone is used to the same sounds, as your own examples show)

(my best guess!)

[kɯːrˠə]

So far, so good...but some people go even further in the theory and say the irish grammar rules that apparently dont make sense are probably based on pronunciation. For example the noun declensions.

I dont see any logic in such a statement! it's okay to have various different pronunciations for the same word, coz it happens to every language. But if the grammar itself was based on pronunciation, shouldnt each county have its own gramadach na gaeilge?

You would need to give several examples, because that is so general as to have no meaning at all.
However, to give an example,
bád, gin. báid: this is based on pronunciation.
The "d" at the end of the word is pronounced differently in each case.
In the first case, it is pronounced as at the beginning of a Spanish word (and possibly Portuguese?) - the first "d" in this phrase:
¿donde vas?
The "d" in the second example has a different pronunciation, which is different depending on dialect:
- similar to an English "d" in Munster
- similar to "dy" or "dz" in parts of Connacht
- similar to English "dj" in parts of Connacht and in Ulster

Irlandesaaa

deirdremf wrote: »

[kɯːrˠə]

You would need to give several examples, because that is so general as to have no meaning at all.
However, to give an example,
bád, gin. báid: this is based on pronunciation.
The "d" at the end of the word is pronounced differently in each case.
In the first case, it is pronounced as at the beginning of a Spanish word (and possibly Portuguese?) - the first "d" in this phrase:
¿donde vas?
The "d" in the second example has a different pronunciation, which is different depending on dialect:
- similar to an English "d" in Munster
- similar to "dy" or "dz" in parts of Connacht
- similar to English "dj" in parts of Connacht and in Ulster

thanks for the examples. Well there is an obvious phonetic mutation from "bád" to "báid", and such a difference in pronunciation indicates a grammatical one. However I see no evidence that "báid" would not sound nice if it was the nominative, for example. There is no relation between phonetics and grammar in this case, in my view. Some grammatical changes in English also end up resulting in a spelling change and therefore in pronunciation, don't they? (ex.: foot -> feet). Nobody says English grammar has its basis on phonetics though.

I'm not trying to "persuade" you that irish grammar is not based on pronunciation. I'm just lookin for evidence that it actually is, so it will finally make sense.

dála an scéil... the slender "d" beside "i" or "e" happens in both Irish and Portuguese

deirdremf

Irlandesaaa wrote: »

thanks for the examples. Well there is an obvious phonetic mutation from "bád" to "báid", and such a difference in pronunciation indicates a grammatical one. However I see no evidence that "báid" would not sound nice if it was the nominative, for example. There is no relation between phonetics and grammar in this case, in my view. Some grammatical changes in English also end up resulting in a spelling change and therefore in pronunciation, don't they? (ex.: foot -> feet). Nobody says English grammar has its basis on phonetics though.

I'm not trying to "persuade" you that irish grammar is not based on pronunciation. I'm just lookin for evidence that it actually is, so it will finally make sense.

dála an scéil... the slender "d" beside "i" or "e" happens in both Irish and Portuguese

It's not about sounding nice.
It's about a regular change in the genitive, i.e. the final consonant in this type of noun is palatalised - whether it is D, T, C, P, M or whatever.
If báid was a nominative, it would be a feminine noun, and the genitive would probably be báide.
An actual example would be cúis, genitive cúise: ar son na cúise.
I don't know if that is of any help.

Irlandesaaa

deirdremf wrote: »

It's not about sounding nice.
It's about a regular change in the genitive, i.e. the final consonant in this type of noun is palatalised - whether it is D, T, C, P, M or whatever.
If báid was a nominative, it would be a feminine noun, and the genitive would probably be báide.
An actual example would be cúis, genitive cúise: ar son na cúise.
I don't know if that is of any help.

wait, r u sayin bilabial consonants can be palatalised?!?! I'm definitely gawked up, never seen such a phenomenon lol or maybe my Irish isnt pronounced the proper way :P

yes, it does help me understand the genitive at least, so thanks a lot. I wish I could find some evidence of Irish grammar's phonetic basis though maybe I should look for resources on Ethimology of the Irish language... any suggestion?

deirdremf

Irlandesaaa wrote: »

wait, r u sayin bilabial consonants can be palatalised?!?! I'm definitely gawked up, never seen such a phenomenon lol or maybe my Irish isnt pronounced the proper way :P

Except for the letter H, there are two versions of all consonants in Irish.
Like l/lh, n/nh in Portuguese. Your two Ds. etc.
bó - beo
dó - deo
ló - leo
In these three examples, the vowel is always the same: a long O.
The E in the examples on the right tell you that the consonant to their left is palatalised.

Another example:
tais - teas
There are 3 sounds in each of these words; they only share one sound: a common vowel, "a"
I'd write them in this way:
tais: tas' - IPA: t̪ˠaʃ
teas: t'as - IPA: tʲasˠ
In other words, the T and the S in each word are different. They are effectively different sounds in Irish, and the quality of a consonant is shown by the vowel next to it; if the vowel is a back vowel - a, o, u - then the consonant is a "leathan / broad" consonant; if the vowel is a front vowel, - i, e - the consonant is "caol / narrow".

yes, it does help me understand the genitive at least, so thanks a lot. I wish I could find some evidence of Irish grammar's phonetic basis though maybe I should look for resources on Ethimology of the Irish language... any suggestion?

edil.ie if you want old Irish.
For modern Irish, the closest you'll get is MacBain's Dictionary: it was written for Scottish Gaelic, but is useful for Irish, too.
Here are two links:
1. http://www2.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaidhlig/faclair/macbain/macbain.txt
You can download this and keep it on your computer.
2. http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/
searchable version.
Ádh mór. Súil agam go gcuideoidh seo leat.