WHY LIVE

Ambersky

I think I’m in the right forum to post on this.
Last month my niece killed herself and this has thrown me and my family into a new world.
Unfortunately it appears to be an experience that is increasingly affecting the lives of many families and friends.
For a time I couldn’t talk about it very much but now I want to and the more I talk about it the more I am amazed at the stories others are coming out with, sharing the experiences that they hadn’t told me about before.

Some people of course don’t want to or can’t talk about suicide.
Sometimes when people say you should talk about it they mean to someone else, a professional giving “help” but not to them, they would really rather you didn’t get so personal and go somewhere, anywhere else.

Browsing around the internet randomly looking for answers to those everlasting questions – Why? And How? I have come across some very disturbing sites.
There is quite a lot of detailed information on the Net about how to kill yourself successfully and there is also quite a lot of writing by people thinking about killing themselves.
Some of the writing about people who have killed themselves appears to me to be romanticising the dead or the act of suicide itself.

I would like to hear more about why one should live.

There was a time in my own life when I felt suicidal and I did make one attempt.
Now in my 50s I think of my 20s and 30s as very passionate and sometimes difficult years that often had the intensity of feeling that various events were the end of the world.
They weren’t the end of the world and I did go on and life is sweet.
It’s not like someone rushed in to fill my void end all loneliness or that now having given it a chance I live happily ever after, but I have learned things.
Even in the pain and grief there is love, indeed without the love there would be no pain.

I would like to hear more about about old fashioned values like Endurance and Fortitude, Pluck Guts Backbone, Continuing Courage, Submission and Allowance, Suffering and Tenacity.
People talking about feeling suicidal often talk about searching for a reason to live, well what are the reasons to live.
Its too late for me to answer this for my niece and she didnt share her questioning with me but there are loads of people out there who are asking the question, why live?
I thought the people in this forum might have something to say on the subject from their own unique perspective that might help someone avert this pain in future.

CathyMoran

I am a cancer survivor and I have had to fight to be here: why live? Well there are people who care about you, love you and need you. There were times during the incredibly tough chem and after surgery when I thought that I could not stand it, the pain was so much and then I saw my husband/daddy and brother...and I have since had children. There is always someone who would be lost without you.

Ambersky

This article http://thebestamericanpoetry.typepad.com/the_best_american_poetry/2010/01/on-suicide-by-jennifer-michael-hecht.html
by Jennifer Michael Hecht seems to be getting a bit of attention online with some supporters and some people against her arguments or her way of putting them.
Some of the writing against this article seems to be by supporters of the right to die campaign for people who are terminally ill and want to be able to choose an assisted suicide.
Its the people who seem to be finding it difficult to cope with current events and who see no hope for the future when there could be a brighter future if only they would give it time I am trying to address, especially the young.
Its a very difficult topic to talk about and it seems to be difficult to talk against suicide in any kind of convincing way.
Anyway heres the article.

Hi I’m posting out of turn today because I’m sitting here still kind of freaked that Rachel Wetzsteon killed herself. I was friends with her and I was friends with Sarah Hannah who killed herself a few years ago. We all got our Ph.D.s at Columbia around the same time (me in history, them in poetry) and were all three poets in New York City over a lot of years. The last time I saw Sarah was at the MLA just a few months before she died. My husband bumped into Rachel a few months ago on the highline, the new park on old elevated train tracks, he had the kids with him, they were all just up there walking around, looking at the flowers.

So I want to say this, and forgive me the strangeness of it. Don’t kill yourself. Life has always been almost too hard to bear, for a lot of the people, a lot of the time. It’s awful. But it isn’t too hard to bear, it’s only almost too hard to bear. Hear me out.

In the West, in the past, the dominant religions told people suicide was against the rules, they must not do it, if they did they would be punished in the afterlife. People killed themselves anyway, of course, but the strict injunction must have helped keep a billion moments of anguish from turning into a bloodbath. These days we encourage people to stay alive and not kill themselves, but we say it for the person’s own sake. It’s illegal, sure, but no one actually insists that suicide is wrong.

I’m issuing a rule. You are not allowed to kill yourself. You are going to like this, stay with me. When a person kills himself, he does wrenching damage to the community. One of the best predictors of suicide is knowing a suicide. That means that every suicide is also a delayed homicide. You have to stay. The reason I say you are going to like this is twofold. First of all, next time you are seriously considering suicide you can dismiss it quickly and go play a video game (or something else meaningless and fun, it’s when we try for meaning that we go crashing into the existential wall – the universe is absurd, to get along with it, you should be too). Second, and this one’s a little harder to describe, if you are even a tiny bit staying alive for the sake of the community, as a favor to the rest of us, I need to make it clear to you that we are grateful that you stay. I am grateful that you stay alive.

Since I started thinking about this, when Sarah died, I started thinking about how if I’m grateful that you haven’t killed yourself (even though the fact of it only recently came into my mind), then you are also likely grateful that I haven’t killed myself (whether consciously yet or not). I have found that thinking about this can feel like a multitude of invisible arms linking to support me. I can fall back into faith in humanity (which is hard to have, admittedly, but the guy I hope is good at least exists). We have to carry each other, like Bono says.

The truth is I want you to live for your sake, not for ours. But the injunction is true and real. Anyway, some part of you doesn’t want to end it all, and I’m talking to her or him, to that part of you. I’m throwing you a rope, you don’t have to explain it to the monster in you, just tell the monster it can do whatever it wants, but not that. Later we’ll get rid of the monster, for now just hang on to the rope. I know that this means a struggle from one second to the next, let alone one day at a time. Know that the rest of us know that among the faces we have met there are some right now who can barely take another minute of the pain and uncertainty. And we are in the room with you, going from one moment to the next, in whatever condition you manage to do it. Sobbing and useless is great! Sobbing and useless is a million times better than dead. A billion times. Thank you for choosing sobbing and useless over dead.

There are poets and other artists, psychotherapists and average Joes, who are thinking of your struggle and appreciating what you have managed to put up with. We are grateful. Best of all, practicing tuning in to your gratitude for other’s staying alive also tones up your ability to feel the gratitude that people are extending to you too, you start to feel the support of it, the invisible arms. Don’t kill yourself. Suffer here with us instead. We need you with us, we have not forgotten you, you are our hero. Stay.

gargleblaster

I don't really understand this. We can talk all we like about fortitude and courage but none of us know what someone else might be going through which makes someone decide to end their life. It's fine to say that things will be better but only that person knows for sure. If they have been suffering for so long and are unable to cope any longer, then hopefully they have someone to help, but sometimes it isn't a rash decision but something resisted for years until finally, just as our immune system can be overcome and some common bug can kill us, their psychological and emotional health is not enough to help them through.

I am glad if anyone can be dissuaded by pleas and platitudes from strangers, but to me it seems to be somewhat dismissive of the situations that many of these people are dealing with.

Saying things like 'the next time you feel suicidal you can dismiss it quickly and go play a video game' - to me that displays a tremendous lack of understanding.

Ambersky

Many young people, young males especially, although they are encouraged to talk to someone about their suicidal feelings wont go to talk to a professional about it.
This leaves worried relatives and friends in a situation where they want to be supportive but dont know how to handle talk and questions about big issues like Why should I live.
While its fine in theory to know only the individual can really answer that for themselves when you love someone you want to say please dont go and you want to be able to give some reasons to live.
Its hard to know what to do or say and people find themselves making mistakes, saying the wrong thing or saying something in the wrong way.
Jennifer Michael Hecht was having a go at it and many people dont like her approach but I can feel some sympathy for her as I dont know what to say myself or how to do any better.
Apparently having someone close to you who died by suicide is a risk factor in suicide so when a young person dies the older relatives of that person and their friends worry about the youths left behind.
From a newspaper article titled We must give young people a reason to live by Tony Bates http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2011/0524/1224297612205.html

In one community I visited recently, there have been six suicides in the past six months, mostly involving young men in their late teens and early 20s. On the previous weekend, there had been three serious failed attempts and the indications were that this behaviour would escalate.

The youth workers with whom I spoke had no difficulty making sense of why these deaths had happened. They were all too familiar with the cycle of despair that marked the lives of their young people. The challenge they faced was how to break the contagion of suicide and give their young people at risk a reason for living.

Im not stuck on the question Why Live? although it was one that was put to me.
Im really wondering what to say, what to offer, if anything to a youth who might be feeling suicidal.
I thought someone else may have some thoughts or experience onthe matter.
This is not my only source of information, I am searching elsewhere, it was just a thought.

From SOSAD Save Our Sons And Daughters http://www.sosadireland.ie/facts/facts.htm

Suicide is the biggest cause of death amongst men and women under the age of 35 on the island of Ireland.

According to the World Health organisation The Republic of Ireland has the fifth highest rate of youth suicide in the European Union.

It is suggested that more than 25% of adolescents have had suicidal thoughts at some point in their lives.

A history of attempted suicide is the most important risk factor for future completed suicide

Over 50% of people who die by suicide do so at the first attempt.

With each additional attempt the risk for future completed suicide becomes greater.

Because suicide is such a taboo and complex subject, it is surrounded by a great deal of confusion and misunderstanding. Below is a list of the most common misconceptions about suicide and the truth taken from The Irish Association of Suicidology's web site at www.ias.ie

MYTHS & FACTS ASSOCIATED WITH SUICIDE

MYTH
"If someone is going to kill themselves there is nothing you can do about it"

FACT
If you can offer appropriate help and emotional support to people who are experiencing deep unhappiness and distress then you can reduce their risk of dying by suicide.

MYTH
"Suicidal people are fully intent on dying"

FACT
Suicide is not a lifestyle choice and it's dangerous to make it sound like one. The majority of people who die by suicide are ambivalent about living or dying and many who experience suicidal thoughts don't really want to die. They can't see a way to go on living with their emotional distress"

MYTH
"Talking about suicide encourages it"

FACT
On the contrary, talking about suicide in a controlled, supportive, educational and informative way will not encourage people to think of taking their own lives. Not to talk about suicide makes it much harder for someone to open up about their feelings and could prevent them finding a way forward

gargleblaster

Those myths and facts are very good. It is true that its not some kind of lifestyle. It's just what happens when people don't have the strength to deal with whatever is bothering them and feel that there is no help for them.

It was painful to read the OP, where you said that when people encourage others to talk, they may mean to someone else. I think it would be so much better if people offered their own shoulder to lean on, but I know that can be emotionally draining, and people may feel they aren't equipped to deal with such things. It's a very hard subject to talk about, but it is the best way to help IMO.

Just letting someone know that you understand that they may be hurting and that you would be glad to be there for them, and listen without judging if things ever get to be too much would do a lot of good. There is often a lot of shame involved, and feelings of hopelessness. Just offering a little hope and making a gesture of compassion and concern can do so much.

Ambersky

This is it, people do indeed often feel ill equiped to deal with someone with suicidal feelings but sometimes you find yourself dealing with a young person you love and it doesnt matter how ill prepared you are, your the one standing there.
Life comes with disillusenments and losses and some young people find themselves ill prepared to deal with all this.
Sometimes young people find themselves with nothing to believe in, no real moral compas and with nothing to help guide them through difficult times.

When this youth comes coupled with a kind of cynical intellectualism you can find yourself dealling with a challenging angry suicidal youth instead of a gentle hopeless one grateful for any gestures of concern.

Sometimes young people have a lot of theory about life, about genuiness, fairness and how things should go and be dealt with.
They can be really good at spotting flaws in someone elses arguments or beliefs even though, maybe even because, they arent holding up any of their own for scrutiny.


Most of the advice you seem to get for dealing with a suicidal person is to be non judgemental to listen and to offer hope.
It doesnt say what to do with a teenager or young adult whos going to be dismissive and challenging you for real genuine reasons to live.
Try offerning reasons to live without sounding naff or overly sentimental or alternatively going mad and becoming overprotective.
Now try doing this when youve already lost one child and fear loosing the one your talking to.
Its not easy.

I know looking for an answer to the question on the Reason To Live is asking for an answer to a Universal quesiton.
Its unfair but its also important.
There are many families who have had several members die by suicide, it happens, a kind of ripple effect of despair.
How do the remaining members talk to one another, how do they cope.

elbee

When I was 12, I felt suicidal. I was too young to act on it (not saying every twelve-year-old won't act it, I was just at a maturity level where I didn't really know how to do it). But I will never forget how it felt to want to die.

The reason that I didn't look into how to do it was because I thought 'I don't know what's around the corner. I could win the Lottery, get a recording contract, write a book, have kids, get an amazing job, anything. And I'm curious to see how it all comes out.'

I'm now 27, very happy and none of those things actually happened. But I think that belief that anything can happen in life, and that at least some of those things have a chance of being good, is fairly important.

I think my reaction makes it very obvious that I was an immature 12 year old but I just remember thinking of the hugeness of life and deciding it was worth taking a risk on.

Ambersky

I know people who are bereaved by suicide are suppose to go through various stages and I am.
The reverberations are continuing throughout the lives of friends and family.
But I still find myself dwelling on this issue of Reasons To Live.

Yesterday (Saturday 19/11/11) I was listening to Marian Finucane and she had Tony Bates on who was talking about a new series he is going to begin on her show next week.
You can listen to him here beginning at about 55mins into the show
http://http://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A3117070%3A70%3A19-11-2011%3A

He is going to do a series on psychological issues while matching them to various novels.

The first topic they are going to do is Resilence and thats what got my attention because Resilience is a very good word for the quality I have been searching for and trying to foster.

Wiki Quote
"Resilience in psychology refers to the idea of an individual's tendency to cope with stress and adversity. This coping may result in the individual “bouncing back” to a previous state of normal functioning, or using the experience of exposure to adversity to produce a “steeling effect” and function better than expected (much like an inoculation gives one the capacity to cope well with future exposure to disease).[1] Resilience is most commonly understood as a process, and not a trait of an individual

If resilience is a process surely it can also be learned or fostered.

Tony Bates said the book he is going to talk about deals with the issue of how children survive trauma.
This will bring up the very interesting topic of memory and story making and how this is part of how we survive.
This survival mechanism also has pitfalls when the memory is not accurate, when we dont have all the parts of the story or when we choose only certain parts of the story to focus on and perhaps repeat in our own lives.

He talks about using the medium of the novel to discuss psychological issues because they can give you a perspective that you didnt have before.
He quotes authors who say a book can be
"a wise guide through a difficult time"
"It can clarify or reveal truths taht can actually make it possible to live"

Might be interesting and might be helpful