House Design and Chimneys

yourpics

Just a general question, most modern houses are designed with the chimneys on the outside walls. Years ago the chimneys tended to be in central locations in the house.
My opinion is that the older design will keep more heat inside the house and the newer design will let out heat at the outside walls.
Does anyone agree? Why the change in postioning of chimneys in newer dwellings? Is there a particular reason?

Mellor

Why do you think that?

Both are holed in the envelop and as such let heated air out.
Both are virtical cold bridges.
A chimney on a external wall, might let out slightly more due to the insulation being slightly worse performing, but it should still be insulated. The first two points are common to both and are the main concerns.


The correct answer is that a modern house doesn't ave a chimney, something I've suggested for years.

No6

Under the new Part L 2010 regulations I think Chimney's will become almost impossible!!, Open Fires will certainly be unusable!!:eek:

sydthebeat

i dont know where you are from but thats certainly not the case in laois.

there is a clear and enforced policy in laois to refuse all external chimneys in planning applications!!

i certainly agree that older dwellings ie pre 1950 were built with internal chimneys for the reasons you are stating, but also for structural reasons.

with the advent of mass produced concrete blocks, the location of the chimney became less depended on structural internal walls, as the mass of the chimney itself became smaller.

I would have the opinion that in 10 years time to build a house with a block chimney will be a rare thing indeed.

actually, if a chimney is emitting heat into the dwelling, thats a signal of a failure of the heat source to be efficient.

yourpics

sydthebeat wrote: »

i dont know where you are from but thats certainly not the case in laois.

there is a clear and enforced policy in laois to refuse all external chimneys in planning applications!!

i certainly agree that older dwellings ie pre 1950 were built with internal chimneys for the reasons you are stating, but also for structural reasons.

with the advent of mass produced concrete blocks, the location of the chimney became less depended on structural internal walls, as the mass of the chimney itself became smaller.

I would have the opinion that in 10 years time to build a house with a block chimney will be a rare thing indeed.

actually, if a chimney is emitting heat into the dwelling, thats a signal of a failure of the heat source to be efficient.

Yeah I'm not suggesting that the chimney is actually emitting heat into the dwelling but if the chimney is in the middle of a house I imagine there must be some benefit, if only slight, to both rooms either side of the chimney.
Anyway, I think the chimney being dependant on the internal walls sounds most logical.

yourpics

Mellor wrote: »

Why do you think that?

Both are holed in the envelop and as such let heated air out.
Both are virtical cold bridges.
A chimney on a external wall, might let out slightly more due to the insulation being slightly worse performing, but it should still be insulated. The first two points are common to both and are the main concerns.


The correct answer is that a modern house doesn't ave a chimney, something I've suggested for years.

Since when does a modern house not have a chimney???

sydthebeat

yourpics wrote: »

Since when does a modern house not have a chimney???

since chimneys became a mark of inefficient heating and building.

block chimneys are a huge thermal bridge through your insulation,
open fires are 70% inefficient
open fires are an 8" wide hole right through your construction

better constructions equate to:
using stoves with double skinned stainless steel flues
or not having a flame heating source at all, this removing the need for a chimney

BryanF

yourpics,
were heading for zero carbon 'in use' buildings. so homes that will not need much heating at all, and certainly not an inefficient open fire requiring a standard chimney, maybe a flue from a stove but that's about it.

creedp

sydthebeat wrote: »

since chimneys became a mark of inefficient heating and building.

block chimneys are a huge thermal bridge through your insulation,
open fires are 70% inefficient
open fires are an 8" wide hole right through your construction

better constructions equate to:
using stoves with double skinned stainless steel flues
or not having a flame heating source at all, this removing the need for a chimney

And sure who needs to stare into an open fire for solace in this day and age when one can be staring at your 50" plasma hanging on the wall and fighting on the front line on your xbox with some guy/gal from Japan!! Sign of the times eh!! Not sure if I have a such a big problem with chimney's ....... but I certaintly won't be staring at the xbox!

On the whole heat loss thing .. is it easier to heat a 1800sq ft house with 1 chimney or a 5000sq ft house without a chimney ... don't see Regs attacking that one ... but I suppose all in good time. Btw fully understand the argument .. its just that Regs are pretty one dimensional

sydthebeat

creedp,

it has always been the way that innovation was patroned by those who could afford it and then the fruits of that innovation eventually filtered down to the masses when it became affordable, by popularity.

i see your point, but your arguing two separate issues which are not homogeneous. No chimney does not have to equate to 50" plasma screen.

and to answer your question, all things being equal, of course the optimum would be an 1800 sq ft hse with no chimney

creedp

i see your point, but your arguing two separate issues which are not homogeneous. No chimney does not have to equate to 50" plasma screen.

Sorry a bit of a silly comment there ... wouldn't have been my 1st one:) simply saying that in the modern day house the plasma on the wall has replaced the fireplace as the focal point in the room .. so really no need for the fireplace anymore, which might be a source of disappointment for some people.

yourpics

ah yes stainless steel flues. but you don't see many houses with no visible chimney on the outside (which is what it sounded like!)

Slig

I remember hearing that it was DeVelera that insisted that all houses have an open fire so that if there was a blockade on oil we could still all burn turf to heat our homes, how things change:rolleyes:. Like having an acre of spuds growing in the back garden the open fire is starting to die out here but I cant see it happening for a while.
In central europe their equivalent of our open fire is/was a massive tiled oven that was central in the house and heated several rooms seemingly.

It sometimes amazes me how little things change in house building, the basic formula for a house hasnt changed much really since the Roman Villas, solid floor (heated), a series walls and doors dividing rooms with windows to the outside and a tiled roof enclosing the whole lot. We are still putting in georgian (style) windows in new builds to this day!

Callan57

yourpics wrote: »

ah yes stainless steel flues. but you don't see many houses with no visible chimney on the outside (which is what it sounded like!)

As a matter of interest there are two houses in my immediate vicinity with no chimneys ... both are relatively recently renovated (last 2-3years) and both owners opted to remove the chimneys in favour of stoves with stainless steel flues. Seems like a pretty good idea IMO ... and it stops the birds nesting in your chimney too.

Mellor

yourpics wrote: »

Since when does a modern house not have a chimney???

Since modern houses tried to reduce wasting energy.

Don't confuse modern and new. They are not the same.

sydthebeat

the vast majority of development houses built at the end of the boom which were connected to gas lines had no chimneys constructed.

This turned gas open fires from 20% efficient to 90% efficient. but more importantly at the time, saved developers significantly by not having to construct a chimney on each dwelling.

Slig

sydthebeat wrote: »

the vast majority of development houses built at the end of the boom which were connected to gas lines had no chimneys constructed.

This turned gas open fires from 20% efficient to 90% efficient. but more importantly at the time, saved developers significantly by not having to construct a chimney on each dwelling.

You mus be a little further South than me:D (and we dont have gas lines around ros/letirim, yet)
Around here if you even suggested that a development house not have an open fire in the living room youd be shot. The vast majority of the developers were ok with spending money on modern design and renewable energies but were convinced that a house without an open fire would never sell.

sydthebeat

Slig wrote: »

You mus be a little further South than me:D (and we dont have gas lines around ros/letirim, yet)
Around here if you even suggested that a development house not have an open fire in the living room youd be shot. The vast majority of the developers were ok with spending money on modern design and renewable energies but were convinced that a house without an open fire would never sell.

the 'chimney less' houses im talking about still have gas fired open fronted fireplaces. These are vented however by use of two vents in the room as per gas regs. most importantly however, this ups their efficiency from 20% to 90%. Thats a very significant selling point ;P