Murray/Reddan pros and cons of each

davegrohl48

Alot of debate popping up on threads about Murray/Reddan. In my mind there isn't a whole lot separating them. Given that we're not a high scoring side and defence is our main strength I prefer to have Murray as he provides better cover tackling.

Reddan Pros:
- Experienced at this level
- Reasonable passer/kicker

Reddan cons:
- No breaking ability
- Physically small defender
- Slow for an international top tier player (Badly exposed by Juan Smith against South Africa in 16th minute of game).

Murray Pros:
- Reasonable passer/kicker
- Quick and elusive
- Physically imposing for a scrumhalf

Murray cons:
- Inexperienced at international level

GerM

Reddan isn't particularly slow. He has played wing and made his Irish debut there. Smith is a very mobile flanker, Kearney was the only one who was able to close on him and he has some excellent top end pace. Murray is a better than reasonable passer too I reckon. He's got the slickest delivery of all our scrum halves. His decision making under pressure can be suspect. Physically, he's extremely powerful. Reddan has that extra little bit of cleverness about him. Watch the decisive scrum between Northampton and Leinster in the HEC final. Reddan made a monkey of the Saints back row with his movement and Leinster put the squeeze on. They're very different players. Murray for Italy, Reddan for Wales.

tolosenc

Murray con:
Poor decision making

If Reddan is a couple of inches shorter, but weighs 2 kilos more, how does that make Murray more physically imposing?

As for Reddan being slow for the Juan Smith try, the video here seems to suggest that he goes 65m in 7 seconds, from a standing start. Not exactly slow.

Also, Reddan has a lot of experience at all levels of Rugby, Murray has been a pro for little over 6 months.

rugbug86

Murray pro:
He's relatively unknown - opposing teams can't do a huge amount of research into him which could work to our advantage

Why haven't you included Boss in the list? I know the talk has been about Reddan/Murray but surely if we're having a SH debate, we should include all 3?

davegrohl48

Very few sprinters in Europe can go anywhere near 7 secs for 65 metre standing start Main thing in video with Smith is to see Heaslip make up ground on Reddan in the chase Murray was listed as 86 kilo Doubt Reddan is 88kg

tyuis

Heaslip seems to be running quicker than Reddan in that clip. It was his pass under pressure that created the try in the first place. Plus he was standing too close the line out for the tap down. A taller Murray wouldn't have seen it go over his head.

ambid

tolosenc wrote: »

Murray con:
...If Reddan is a couple of inches shorter, but weighs 2 kilos more, how does that make Murray more physically imposing?

As for Reddan being slow for the Juan Smith try, the video here seems to suggest that he goes 65m in 7 seconds, from a standing start. Not exactly slow.

Also, Reddan has a lot of experience at all levels of Rugby, Murray has been a pro for little over 6 months.

Agree with this. Reddan gets a lot of criticism but has many strengths and is a good player.

He does seem pretty inconsistent though. He can have very quick service, make good decisions and control his pack, but he seems to have more poor periods in matches when fans are screaming for a substitution than you'd expect from an experienced and top class player. Even this weekend, I'd have little idea what performance we could expect from him.

I think that's his biggest weakness - he's probably a little more inconsistent than most so people never quite fully trust him.

tolosenc

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Very few sprinters in Europe can go anywhere near 7 secs for 65 metre standing start Main thing in video with Smith is to see Heaslip make up ground on Reddan in the chase Murray was listed as 86 kilo Doubt Reddan is 88kg

If you watch the video, he goes from 65m out back to his line from 16:43 to 16:50. So then he's not slow, but an elite sprinter. Heaslip gains maybe 2 meters on him. Saying he's slow is incredibly incorrect.

Reddan is 86, Murray is 84 according to the stats I have (from last year's Magners final).

davegrohl48

Not incredibly incorrect but absolutely correct Go have a look at Dwain Chambers (6.42) European 60 m record or Maurice Greene. Then add about .3 of a second for another 5 metres. World record for 65 metres would be around 6.72 out of blocks on fresh legs. Murray/Reddan are both listed at 86kg on Irishrugby.ie that is suprising. I think try was only a 50 metre run, hence your mistake.
Heaslip is not pacey enough to play backs and yet Reddan in that video is around 4% slower than him over 50 metres. That is a big gap at this level.
Maybe nobody on our squad could have got to Smith but the video was a straight up comparitive estimate of speed. Reddan may have debuted at wing but it does not automatically mean he is fast.

MungBean

Reddan Pros:
- Experienced at this level
- Reasonable passer/kicker
- Excellent scramble in defence
- Fast distributor
- Quick thinking
- Intelligent tackler

Reddan cons:
- Limited breaking ability
- Physically small defender

Murray Pros:
- Reasonable passer/kicker
- Quick and elusive
- Solid defence


Murray cons:
- Inexperienced at international level
- Limited breaking ability
- Physically small defender

Really dont see what Murray has done to be considered better than Reddan in defence, line breaking, decision making or speed of distribution. He's a quality player but he's not at Reddans (or Boss's) standards as of yet.

davegrohl48

I think Murray appears more phsyically imposing in the tackle from what we've seen in the tournament so far. A poster commented about him using his extra height and reach against Australia.
Murray displayed excellent breaking ability when he had a try disallowed against Australia involving a side step around the last defender. Both sides were playing on and only afterwards it was whistled back. Plus he had another break gaining some valuable ground deep in their half.
Scramble defence I don't know enough of the technicalities of that, but Steve Thompson exposed him on an intercept and an international top tier scrumhalf should have been able to get at least a tap tackle in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lABWy8GkK0

phog

tolosenc wrote: »

Murray con:
Poor decision making

How many brain farts have we seen from Reddan?

I mentioned this on an thread but the mod asked to go back on topic so I'll repeat it here.

Why are the errors from an inexperienced player jumped on but the errors of an experienced player are accepted.

GerM

phog wrote: »

How many brain farts have we seen from Reddan?

I mentioned this on an thread but the mod asked to go back on topic so I'll repeat it here.

Why are the errors from an inexperienced player jumped on but the errors of an experienced player are accepted.

Why not make an argument to support that Murray is not a poor decision maker? Debate the point at hand instead of trying to always deflect it.

MungBean

davegrohl48 wrote: »

I think Murray appears more phsyically imposing in the tackle from what we've seen in the tournament so far. A poster commented about him using his extra height and reach against Australia.
Murray displayed excellent breaking ability when he had a try disallowed against Australia involving a side step around the last defender. Both sides were playing on and only afterwards it was whistled back. Plus he had another break gaining some valuable ground deep in their half.

It was a turnover though and in fairness to him a good step and quick thinking. But it was one instance in broken play. I cant remember the other break. Against a set line defence all I have ever seen him do(as far as I remember) in an Ireland jersey has been pick and go needlessly (and quite often) and leave the ruck without a scrum half. Something Reddan ONLY does when theres nobody to clear the ruck and there's no other option to prevent a turnover but to take it on himself to make up the time till the support arrives.

Murray's inexperience at this level affects all aspects of his game. Whether its plainly visable or not it will still put him at a disadvantage. It limits his defensive ability, it limits his attacking play and it will limit his awareness when kicking.

I'm not trying to paint him as some inexperienced schoolboy out of his depth. But things that would come to experienced players without thinking will not come to Murray. He has to work on that, he was to be more aware that Reddan or Boss to get the same level of understanding. All that will put him at a disadvantage when under pressure. So far he has done reasonably well but he hasnt been tested over 60 minutes in a test match at the highest level when the pressure is on. And if he's at a disadvantage already he will struggle to shift up gears with the rest of the team when the time comes and wont be on the same wavelength.

phog

GerM wrote: »

Why not make an argument to support that Murray is not a poor decision maker? Debate the point at hand instead of trying to always deflect it.

I cant, I never said he hasnt made poor decisons but you'd swear he was the only SC ever to get caught with the ball in hand or made a poor decision.

Can you say that you've never ever seen Reddan or Boss make poor decisions?

GerM

phog wrote: »

I cant, I never said he hasnt made poor decisons but you'd swear he was the only SC ever to get caught with the ball in hand or made a poor decision.

Can you say that you've never ever seen Reddan or Boss make poor decisions?

Nope. I think Reddan is quite erratic and it's the danger you take when you select him. He plays a high tempo, off the cuff game which can result in some mistakes or some very clever gains. He has always been the have a go type scrum half. I think Murray, for his part, can lack composure under pressure which sees him make the wrong decision or delay. I think he's a very strong player though and will give a good account of himself against Italy. I reckon he'll be sent out there with a specific plan and he'll stick to it. He won't set the world on fire in terms of big plays but I can see him having a very quietly efficient game.

Nermal

tolosenc wrote: »

If you watch the video, he goes from 65m out back to his line from 16:43 to 16:50. So then he's not slow, but an elite sprinter. Heaslip gains maybe 2 meters on him. Saying he's slow is incredibly incorrect.

Reddan is 86, Murray is 84 according to the stats I have (from last year's Magners final).

Judging by the seconds on the video, standing start is at 6 seconds in, line is reached by 14, so it's 8 seconds minimum I think. He's not elite (how could he be, if Heaslip can gain on him?). Everyone seems to be running in slo-mo in that vid compared to Kearney!

phog

tolosenc wrote: »

Murray con:
Poor decision making

If Reddan is a couple of inches shorter, but weighs 2 kilos more, how does that make Murray more physically imposing?

As for Reddan being slow for the Juan Smith try, the video here seems to suggest that he goes 65m in 7 seconds, from a standing start. Not exactly slow.

Also, Reddan has a lot of experience at all levels of Rugby, Murray has been a pro for little over 6 months.

A perfect example of a poor decison by Reddan, an intercept pass.

flynninio

just turned on newstalk and they talking about murray startin has been decided???
or have i missed the start of the piece?

davegrohl48

Our first 15 has three fast backs Earls or Trimble, Bowe and Kearney. Sexton has reasonable pace but no more than that. Our best strength as a squad has been our defence. So when we end being put to the pin of our collar against a side like All Blacks how can we hold our defensive line over 80 mins without more pace in the backline?
Even Wales with Shane Williams would fancy setting him at our 9/10/12/13 central area after scrums/rucks/mauls/lineouts have sucked in our forwards.
Darcy/BOD are just not as mobile anymore so the pace we need has to come from somewhere. I think it was the biggest factor in Murray being brought in the first place.

yimrsg

Pierre Spies is in that video and he doesn't stand out as being much faster than others, Him, Sexton, Steyne (he slows down) and Heaslip look evenly matched pace wise once all get up to top speed. Spies is meant to be super fast but that clip doesn't show him being all that fast.

Reddan possibly comes across as slow as he's running against guys over 6ft and won't have the stride length of the taller players. Kearney definitely looks the fastest possibly because he's got the space to run into or possibly because he's coming in from an angle or maybe because he is the fastest.

I wouldn't say there is much of a difference in pace between Murray and Reddan though I'd guess that since Murray is taller he's going to be faster over longer distances, whether one or the other makes a break in the first place is another thing.

.ak

As mentioned on another thread the training pics seem to offer a Murray/ROG start.

Thing is, is this another game where DK is trying to find out his 1st selection, or is he picking a pairing that suits the day?

tolosenc

phog wrote: »

A perfect example of a poor decison by Reddan, an intercept pass.

True, but Fitzgerald shouldn't have been showing for it like that. Doesn't absolve Reddan, however. Neither Murray or Reddan are half as awful as TOL, but the difference is, Reddan will have bad games, whereas Murray will brainfart in the middle of an otherwise decent performance.

Thread needs more Boss.

tolosenc

davegrohl48 wrote: »

I think try was only a 50 metre run, hence your mistake.

You did watch the video, right? It's 63 or 64 metres from where Reddan starts. Add in any kind of angle and you're at 65.

.ak

tolosenc wrote: »

Thread needs more Boss.

I actually think that's the thing that seperates Boss from Reddan and Murray. Whilst he may have an the odd handling error, he is far more composed, and is a tank in regards to physicality compared to the other lads.

It's like having a flighty forward coming off the scrum at times!

I'd almost say the only thing holding him back from more selections is his pace. He's physical, but perhaps a little slow at the ruck. He's the perfect impact sub in my book tho. I'd like to see him on the bench for one the big games, I've seen him really squash some French club's in the final minutes of a game.

theboss80

tolosenc wrote: »

Thread needs more Boss.

Right I'm here Tolosenc

In the same way I thought Sexton was the natural successor to ROG and in some way has taken over if not quite nailed down I can see Murray following suit up behind Reddan now. Murrays profile is growing and a fast track progression could come down as orders from management to Munster after his inclusions in the WC.

As I want ROG for the Italy match as its a winner takes all game and we need his cool head and experience aswell as he is the form OH I think I would prefer to see Reddan starting for the very same reasons. I would have Murray on the bench though as he offers something as an impact sub which we need a few of after Italy start to tire.

Podge_irl

phog wrote: »

Can you say that you've never ever seen Reddan or Boss make poor decisions?

No, but we've seen Murray do it in nearly every game for Ireland at this point. Reddan is prone is the odd very poor decision but he's had a large number of excellent games. That's just not a record Murray has yet - he's looked (entirely understandably) poor when under pressure in most games so far.

I expect Murray to take over the scrum half slot in the next year or two but he's still woefully inexperienced and more importantly that is showing in his play at the moment at times.

phog

Podge_irl wrote: »

No, but we've seen Murray do it in nearly every game for Ireland at this point. Reddan is prone is the odd very poor decision but he's had a large number of excellent games. That's just not a record Murray has yet - he's looked (entirely understandably) poor when under pressure in most games so far.

I expect Murray to take over the scrum half slot in the next year or two but he's still woefully inexperienced and more importantly that is showing in his play at the moment at times.

So we should ignore the errors of the experienced player?

davegrohl48

Okay 65 metres, I misjudged halfway line on video. Yes Spies was in that video and is fast but he ran a wide line and did make up ground on most. Leaving aside metres/secs the issue is that Reddan was slow covering back and he was slow covering back against Thompson also.
Thompson crossed unopposed and could have brought the ball in further to make an easier conversion. A little thing like that can be a 2pt swing in a tight game.
There was important covering and tackling done by Murray late on in the Australia game when they had to score a try. Once when he covered ground and was involved in a double tackle and another time when he cut across and at least got hands on the back out near the right touch line. Might have gone down as a missed tackle but more a case of where a player misses a tackle because they've sought it out and been in position to make some sort of tackle. Hard to make a proper tackle when player is barely whithin arms reach.

Podge_irl

phog wrote: »

So we should ignore the errors of the experienced player?

Of course not - and Reddan has too large a catalogue of them. But he's also had plenty of excellent, error free games. Something Murray does not.

I'm all for having a new scrum half. I'm not a huge Reddan fan and our other options are worse. But Murray has been showing his inexperience at the RWC and if we have a scrum under pressure I would definitely sooner have Reddan there. It may look like I'm just latching on to any error Murray makes, but the fact is he has made a few and all that in only 5 caps. I wouldn't expect anything else - I doubt Genia was all that in his 16th or so professional start - but the RWC is not the arena for him to be learning this stuff. And the argument that he has a partnership with ROG doesn't really hold either as Reddan has played with ROG more.

totallegend

davegrohl48 wrote: »

There was important covering and tackling done by Murray late on in the Australia game when they had to score a try. Once when he covered ground and was involved in a double tackle and another time when he cut across and at least got hands on the back out near the right touch line. Might have gone down as a missed tackle but more a case of where a player misses a tackle because they've sought it out and been in position to make some sort of tackle. Hard to make a proper tackle when player is barely whithin arms reach.

It went down as a missed tackle because that's exactly what it was.

73 minutes on the clock, Ashley-Cooper released by Cooper and breaks down the right wing, Murray was perfectly positioned to make a side-on tackle but went waaaay too high around AAC's shoulders and the winger barely broke stride. If O'Gara had missed the same tackle, he'd have been crucified (ironically it was ROG who did put the tackle in on AAC). It was poor.

LostPassword

totallegend wrote: »

It went down as a missed tackle because that's exactly what it was.

73 minutes on the clock, Ashley-Cooper released by Cooper and breaks down the right wing, Murray was perfectly positioned to make a side-on tackle but went waaaay too high around AAC's shoulders and the winger barely broke stride. If O'Gara had missed the same tackle, he'd have been crucified (ironically it was ROG who did put the tackle in on AAC). It was poor.

It was a missed tackle, but it wasn't a bad mistake as he succeeded in slowing the player down and only fell off him as he went into contact - not great but not a huge error either.

I've been generally impressed with him - he has a lovely pass, gets the ball away with very little fuss and for some reason that I can't really justify, he just seems to inspire a feeling of confidence in me that Reddan has never done - I just think that Reddan is prone to making bad decisions too often - generally just little things, like going the wrong way off breakdowns and so on, but he's never struck me as somebody who's a great reader of the game. I get a much better sense of that from Murray. I'll be happy if he starts (but would also be reasonably happy if Reddan does).

yimrsg

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Okay 65 metres, I misjudged halfway line on video. Yes Spies was in that video and is fast but he ran a wide line and did make up ground on most. Leaving aside metres/secs the issue is that Reddan was slow covering back and he was slow covering back against Thompson also.

Spies, Heaslip, Steyne and Reddan all ran more or less straight so there'd be sod all difference in metres covered, only Kearney and a lesser extent Sexton had angles to run. Out of all those running it was Kearney that covered the most ground and to my eye looked the fastest.

Thompson was at 3/4 pace when he intercepted and Reddan was more or less stationary and was about 2 to 3 metres away from him. You honestly believe that any Irish scrum half would have caught either Thompson or Smith in Reddan's place and then successfully make a try saving tackle?

Thompson crossed unopposed and could have brought the ball in further to make an easier conversion. A little thing like that can be a 2pt swing in a tight game.

Check that again and you'll see Reddan getting post side of him along with covering defenders and making sure he didn't get to touch down under the posts. You've contradicted yourself there.

There was important covering and tackling done by Murray late on in the Australia game when they had to score a try. Once when he covered ground and was involved in a double tackle and another time when he cut across and at least got hands on the back out near the right touch line. Might have gone down as a missed tackle but more a case of where a player misses a tackle because they've sought it out and been in position to make some sort of tackle. Hard to make a proper tackle when player is barely whithin arms reach.

Also the fact that both of these Reddan brain farts came from our own lineout shows that it's possibly not Reddan's fault alone, poor ball off the top of the Smith try with 2 huge saffas on him in an instant. Maybe we were predictable at lineouts or opponents are aware that with Sexton attacking the line flatter we're susceptible to intercepts from flat passes off first phase or that we still tried the move off the lineout despite making a hames of it.

davegrohl48

They wouldn't have caught Smith as he had too much of a headstart so it needed someone with Kearneys type of pace. That video the key part was that Heaslip outpaced Reddan.
Thompson I believe could have been caught. Yes Reddan covers post side but if you watch the last five yards of Thompsons run he is well aware he is safe to start pulling in towards the post gaining 2 metres or so for the conversion. If Reddan had been up closer Thompson would have had to keep going straight to stay out of the range of a tackle. As it was I still think Thompson could have gained another metre or two if he had gone across the line face forward rather than the unusual way he did legs first. Reddan is still not close enough to touch him.
Reddan starts from standing but Thompson has an interception type start he has to get the ball settled first 3/4 pace is an exageration, Reddan makes hardly any ground back and is running without the ball unlike Thompson. Most importantly Thompson is not noted as a particularly fast player.

Cpt_Blackbeard

I doubt I will be any way impartial on this but, ill have an attempt anyway. The biggest issue between them is a matter of experience. Playing Murray is a much bigger risk but, he has the potential now and in the future to be the better player.

Murray pros:
- Brilliant pass.
- Breaking threat.
- Reasonably physical at the break-down.
- Very good kicking game, errors aside.
- A solid defender. Can join the main defensive line.
- Fantastic Bieber-esque hair.

Murray cons:
- Extremely inexperienced.
- Extremely inexperienced.
- Very very inexperienced.
- Has made some poor errors.
- Unknown as of yet.

Reddan pros:
- Is much more experienced.
- A proven quantity at this level.
- Sexton doesn't perform/hasn't performed at this level without him.
- Good pass when he is fully concentrating.
- The players around him know his game.

Reddan cons:
- Prone to terrible errors, especially intercepts.
- Pass can be very slow at times.
- No breaking threat.
- Cannot join the defensive line like Murray. Is only effective as a sweeper.
- Little to no physical presence at ruck-time.
- Ginger.

bamboozle

from what i've seen of Murray

Pros
Good pass
Physical presence
Great future

cons
poor game management (butchering a 4 man overlap v's Oz by popping short to Healy(i think) when we had a queue of lads out wide waiting to score
poor kicking game
very inexperienced, with experience the first 2 cons should improve.

As of now there's no debate in my mind between the 3 scrumhalfs we have on tour, Reddan and Boss should be in the 22, Murray should be gaining experience by being in the squad.
Come 6 nations, hopefully Murray will have banked HC experience and will be an even better player than he is now. Couldnt understand why he wasnt given a run against Russia.

TheHighRoad

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I doubt I will be any way impartial on this but, ill have an attempt anyway. The biggest issue between them is a matter of experience. Playing Murray is a much bigger risk but, he has the potential now and in the future to be the better player.

Murray pros:
- Brilliant pass.
- Breaking threat.
- Reasonably physical at the break-down.
- Very good kicking game, errors aside.
- A solid defender. Can join the main defensive line.
- Fantastic Bieber-esque hair.

Murray cons:
- Extremely inexperienced.
- Extremely inexperienced.
- Very very inexperienced.
- Has made some poor errors.
- Unknown as of yet.

Reddan pros:
- Is much more experienced.
- A proven quantity at this level.
- Sexton doesn't perform/hasn't performed at this level without him.
- Good pass when he is fully concentrating.
- The players around him know his game.

Reddan cons:
- Prone to terrible errors, especially intercepts.
- Pass can be very slow at times.
- No breaking threat.
- Cannot join the defensive line like Murray. Is only effective as a sweeper.
- Little to no physical presence at ruck-time.
- Ginger.

Sexton has gotten MOTM awards against Australia and South Africa with a different scrumhalf inside him. Also you forgot to mention how slow Murray is to getting to the break down (nearly cost us the game against Australia) and how can Murray be a solid defender when in 2 games hes already had some very noticable missed tackles?

I would argue from what we've seen

Murray cons :
Inexperience
Poor judgement (remember he went right when there was an overlap and certain try against Australia on the left?)
Prone to missing tackles
Can be slow getting to break down
Makes errors
quick passing, but mixed passing
Poor kicking

davegrohl48

Was that the incident where he had a chance of tap penalty and run toward the left? Didn't know the rule about touching the base of the padding till I seen Boss try against Russia but looking at Oz match last night it does look like Murray misses out on a glorious opportunity to nearly score himself. Looked like covering Aussie defender would have been blocked off from making a tackle by the padding round the right post if Murray had gone hard and dived low for it.
I suppose as his confidence grows he'd be more likely to try something like that or setup the overlap at that stage.

phog

TheHighRoad wrote: »

Sexton has gotten MOTM awards against Australia and South Africa with a different scrumhalf inside him. Also you forgot to mention how slow Murray is to getting to the break down (nearly cost us the game against Australia) and how can Murray be a solid defender when in 2 games hes already had some very noticable missed tackles?

I would argue from what we've seen

Murray cons :
Inexperience
Poor judgement (remember he went right when there was an overlap and certain try against Australia on the left?)
Prone to missing tackles
Can be slow getting to break down
Makes errors
quick passing, but mixed passing
Poor kicking

Going by Scrum.com, Murray only had one missed tackle while Reddan had two.

All have made errors and again have been poor with some passing, I realy dont know why Murray is being singled out.

bamboozle

phog wrote: »

Going by Scrum.com, Murray only had one missed tackle while Reddan had two.

All have made errors and again have been poor with some passing, I realy dont know why Murray is being singled out.

only the most blinkered of fans can consider Murray to be a better or more rounded player than Reddan at the moment. Murray looks like a great talent and with experience hopefully he'll turn into a top quality player, but in the limited game time he's had in an Irish jersey he has kicked carlessly and shown poor game management, with top level exposure over the next 6 months hopefully he'll be a much improved player targetting a starting 6 nations spot.

phog

bamboozle wrote: »

only the most blinkered of fans can consider Murray to be a better or more rounded player than Reddan at the moment. Murray looks like a great talent and with experience hopefully he'll turn into a top quality player, but in the limited game time he's had in an Irish jersey he has kicked carlessly and shown poor game management, with top level exposure over the next 6 months hopefully he'll be a much improved player targetting a starting 6 nations spot.

Why qoute my post? Were the facts incorrect?

bamboozle

phog wrote: »

Why qoute my post? Were the facts incorrect?

because you're claiming Murray is being singled out, i dont think he is nor do i think the gametime himself and Reddan have had in the world cup can be used to base stats on. Given Reddan started against Oz in a game where we did lots of defending compared to Murray's start against the yanks in a game where they had very little ball.

phog

bamboozle wrote: »

because you're claiming Murray is being singled out, i dont think he is nor do i think the gametime himself and Reddan have had in the world cup can be used to base stats on. Given Reddan started against Oz in a game where we did lots of defending compared to Murray's start against the yanks in a game where they had very little ball.

So what can you base the stats on? Games where that haven't played.

For the record all 3 missed tackles were against Australia and if Reddan only made one tackle in the game but missed two, while Murray made two tackles and missed one.

bamboozle

phog wrote: »

So what can you base the stats on? Games where that haven't played.

For the record all 3 missed tackles were against Australia and if Reddan only made one tackle in the game but missed two, while Murray made two tackles and missed one.

put it this way your stat of Reddan missing 2 tackles and Murray missing 1 can be turned on its head by saying reddan missed 1 tackle every 30 mins against oz while murray missed 1 tackle every 20 mins against oz.

I dont think tackling is an issue for either of them and its very hard to rate murray in an irish jersey given the lack of time he's worn one for

AtItAllDayRef

TheHighRoad wrote: »

Sexton has gotten MOTM awards against Australia and South Africa with a different scrumhalf inside him. Also you forgot to mention how slow Murray is to getting to the break down (nearly cost us the game against Australia) and how can Murray be a solid defender when in 2 games hes already had some very noticable missed tackles?

I would argue from what we've seen

Murray cons :
Inexperience
Poor judgement (remember he went right when there was an overlap and certain try against Australia on the left?)
Prone to missing tackles
Can be slow getting to break down
Makes errors
quick passing, but mixed passing
Poor kicking

Inexperience - fair enough
Poor judgement - that would probably be a call from the outhalf to go that side. Also Reddan's decision making on the back foot is far from flawless - if he's on the front foot and has time he does well.
Prone to missed tackles - hard to judge based on limited gametime and as posted by someone else the stats don't back up your theory.
Can be slow getting to the breakdown - haven't seen that myself
Makes Errors - Reddan has a nasty habit of throwing intercept passes when under pressure (see poor judgement)
Mixed passing - none of scrum half's have a decent pass (not even Stringer any more).
Poor kicking - what examples are you referring to?

TheHighRoad

AtItAllDayRef wrote: »

Poor judgement - that would probably be a call from the outhalf to go that side.

No it wasn't, the outhalf was nowhere near him. Also remember his kick straight into touch, one metre from the try line?

Prone to missed tackles - hard to judge based on limited gametime and as posted by someone else the stats don't back up your theory.

He made a high profile, one up missed tackle. He also missed another tackle. That was in 20mins against Australia, the only game so far where hes had to defend. From what we've seen hes prone to missed tackles.

Can be slow getting to the breakdown - haven't seen that myself

You missed have missed the Australian game where he was so slow that Genia turned over the ball and Australia nearly scored.

Makes Errors - Reddan has a nasty habit of throwing intercept passes when under pressure (see poor judgement)

A habit implies it happens regularly. In Reddans 9 year career I can count two intercepts.

Mixed passing - none of scrum half's have a decent pass (not even Stringer any more).

Reddan is the most consistent with his passing of all of them.

Poor kicking - what examples are you referring to?

The poorly weighted kick a metre from the try line? Whenever I've watched him play his box kicks have been poor.