A question re. the MMA league..

arybvtcw0eolkf

The answer might be very simple, but its escaping me right at the moment.

I'd intended to compete last weekend, but I was commited to a Judo comp which was cancelled - this gave me time to go and spectate at the MMA league.

Tbh, I didn't particularly like the format and came away feeling that I now had no interest in competing.

Why, because it seems its heavily balanced in favour of grapplers/wrestlers.

I'm a Judo brown belt or I'm not totally alien to grappling.

But I seen some bouts where a kickboxer or Muay Thai fighter completely dominated the bout only to get a draw.

Of course I seen some good wrestling bouts end the same way too.

So in the absence of a submission, ie in the case of a striker who completely dominates a bout why isn't there a winner declared?.

Tim_Murphy

Angelique Harsh Chalkboard wrote: »

So in the absence of a submission, ie in the case of a striker who completely dominates a bout why isn't there a winner declared?.

For the same reason that if a grappler completely dominates he isn't declared the winner; all matches that go the distance get called a draw. It's been that way from the start.

From my point of view as a coach, the league is a great stepping stone and a great way to get experience. If one of my guys dominated his two matches but didn't finish them I'd consider that a good result. Officially he'll only have drawn two bouts but that's only so important to be honest.

Also not having judges is a great way to get guys to push to finish the fight rather thank just lying there belting a lad in the stomach for 5 minutes.

cowzerp

I personally would prefer decisions-Don't really know what harm it would do, might even help lads understand what wins MMA fights for when they step up to C class fights etc.

I know plenty of lads who are put off by the draw's, maybe others would be with losing on points but i don't think so-could be wrong.

lukeyjudo

I agree I think the standard in Ireland has grown and submission defence at the leagues is pretty solid. It's also hard to finish someone from mount when all the person on bottom does is hold their arms to their chest.

I'd love to see a judges decision worth a few points less than a submission or tko stoppage as it's not really fair Completely dominating a guy with strikes or grappling and having it declared a draw....

HOWEVER... It's just the MMA League. A few coolminers did so well they're fighting D-Class MMA at battlezone contenders the end of October and they won't compete in the league again, as a coach I feel they've graduated past that level and D-Class show is the perfect step up where once they do well there, then they'll graduate to semi pro.

Anyway that's just my opinion!

Mellor

lukeyjudo wrote: »

It's also hard to finish someone from mount when all the person on bottom does is hold their arms to their chest.

They should watch Barry's A id for Armbar video

Sid_Justice

I think you're missing the point of the league. Although it's actually got more competitive in the last few years with the actual leagues and medals and records and stuff, it's really just a grappling competition with limited strikes.

Who cares if a kickboxer dominates a wrestler and it's a draw. Like, really, who cares? Little ego boost for the kickboxer to get his hand raised and a 2 euro medal?

League is for people with years MMA who want to test to see if what they're learning is working. If you're looking to practice your kickboxing you're in the wrong competition. MMA league is the only mma tournament in ireland i would not alter in anyway shape or form.

If you're one of those lunatics with tattoos and shaved heads, trying to stare people down, pacing up and down the room, practising head kicks on pads before going into the mmaleague you need a reality check.

Whether you're a kickboxer, a boxer, a MT, a wrestler, a bjjer, a judoka whatever, if you lose in the mma league, regardless of the rule bias, you should not be participating above this skill class.

Mellor

Sid_Justice wrote: »

If you're one of those lunatics with tattoos and shaved heads,

cowzerp

Sid_Justice wrote: »

I think you're missing the point of the league. Although it's actually got more competitive in the last few years with the actual leagues and medals and records and stuff, it's really just a grappling competition with limited strikes.



Who cares if a kickboxer dominates a wrestler and it's a draw. Like, really, who cares? Little ego boost for the kickboxer to get his hand raised and a 2 euro medal?

So it's really just a grappling competition with strikes is it?!
in most grappling competitions there is a winner on points if it goes the distance-i don't see the harm in a decision, Lukeyjudo gave a great idea of using less points for judges decision than a finish, say 2 for decision and 3 for finish, sub, tko etc

On the 2nd part of your text above-I'm sure the Kickboxer cares if he goes home saying he drew after well beating an opponent that was nothing but durable, maybe he's practising staying on his feet for C class fights and trying to make his favoured style work against a grappler, i think saying it's only the MMA leagues is a bit disrespectful to be honest as many people love doing them

Either way it's Mark's baby so he has the decision if he wants or feels it needs to change, like anything i think it should be flexible if something that improves it comes along while keeping with the principles that Mark set it up for in place.

theboxingclinic

I know a lot more of my lads would compete in it if there were decisions. Still as Paul said that's marks decision. I think Makkiomis idea of more points for a sub as being a good idea as the incentive to finish is still there.

Rob01

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Whether you're a kickboxer, a boxer, a MT, a wrestler, a bjjer, a judoka whatever, if you lose in the mma league, regardless of the rule bias, you should not be participating above this skill class.

So if you had a fantastic boxer/MT who is using the MMA league as a stepping stone, who does well for 4 mins but can't strike to the head & gets caught in a submission by a very good grappler, your saying that the person should not compete at D or C class?

That's a bit of a wild statement to make!

mark.leonard

Excellent thread guys keep the conversation going. I am always looking for ways to improve the League so all suggestions are useful!

We use judges for the Finals in Round 4 to decide League champions, these matches allow competitors to experience working with judges and the additional pressure, which makes for a great stepping stone for full rules competition.

Tim captured most of what I would say on this so let me just add that the intention of the League is to give everyone involved in MMA a competitive outlet, from the twice a week hobbyists to the hardcore fighters determined to go all the way. The reason the League is so successful is because it has a lot to offer to both of those groups and the gamut in between.
We are the Safe, Fun and Easy way to get into MMA competition and will continue to be so.

In my opinion - if we were to add judges to all matches then there would be 16, possibly 17 threads after each event about particular fights that the judges "got it wrong", my experience with well intentioned judging from my TKD days has ably demonstrated that its impossible to make folks happy by rendering a decision. So people grumbling about draws would switch to different people grumbling about decisions.

lukeyjudo

Mellor wrote: »

They should watch Barry's A id for Armbar video

I'd rather continue coaching my guys that mount is for putting a hole in someone's face.

Tim_Murphy

I’m with Mark on this one. You can make good arguments for having judges decisions but there is a great chance that they’d end up causing more problems than ithey'd be worth.

You’d have the problem of rounding up at least 6-9 judges for the day, most of which won’t be willing to do it for the entire day, which is fair enough, so you’d end up needing a good few more than that.

Then of course you’d have the problem of people saying so&so scored it for Jonny because he is student/training partner/BFF.

Judges decisions and judges switching in and out would also slow down the running of the event for sure.

Niall0

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

I’m with Mark on this one. You can make good arguments for having judges decisions but there is a great chance that they’d end up causing more problems than ithey'd be worth.

You’d have the problem of rounding up at least 6-9 judges for the day, most of which won’t be willing to do it for the entire day, which is fair enough, so you’d end up needing a good few more than that.

Then of course you’d have the problem of people saying so&so scored it for Jonny because he is student/training partner/BFF.

Judges decisions and judges switching in and out would also slow down the running of the event for sure.

What if the referee made the decision? I think it would make things a bit more interesting.

Tim_Murphy

Niall0 wrote: »

What if the referee made the decision? I think it would make things a bit more interesting.

I’ve ref’d a fair few league fights at this stage. The referee’s job is to watch for lads getting kneed in the face and what not, in other words looking out for fighter safety, not for matching the match pondering on who is winning. It’s not a ref’s job.

Niall0

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

I’ve ref’d a fair few league fights at this stage. The referee’s job is to watch for lads getting kneed in the face and what not, in other words looking out for fighter safety, not for matching the match pondering on who is winning. It’s not a ref’s job.

Fair enough, i think alot of people would like to see judging of some form.
I suppose you would need more volunteers etc, might not be possible. If it can be done for the finals though i suppose its possible for the other rounds? Do ye have much hassle with the decisions for the finals?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Thanks for the input Mark, I hope I'm not stepping on your toes with this.

It was apparent from the start that the event was popular.

I just got the feeling that its weighed too heavily in favour of the grappler, ie the grappler can use almost any tool in his arsenal to either get a win or stall for a draw but a striker can't use probably the most important tool in his box - strikes to the head.

I'm sure you've heard every argument for and against allowing strikes to the head, including suggestions for allowing heavier gloves and possibly head guards.

You can be a very good striker with a mediocre ground game facing a very good grappler with a mediocre striking game, so in an MMA setting would it not make more sense, or be a little more fair to the striker, if they were both given a level playing field?.

I take Tim's point re. ref's not being judges, that was my first observation when asked why there were so many draws despite many strikers dominating a bout.

I didn't know there were judges and winners & losers for the final.

Tim_Murphy

Angelique Harsh Chalkboard wrote: »

I just got the feeling that its weighed too heavily in favour of the grappler, ie the grappler can use almost any tool in his arsenal to either get a win or stall for a draw but a striker can't use probably the most important tool in his box - strikes to the head.

I'm sure you've heard every argument for and against allowing strikes to the head, including suggestions for allowing heavier gloves and possibly head guards.

You can be a very good striker with a mediocre ground game facing a very good grappler with a mediocre striking game, so in an MMA setting would it not make more sense, or be a little more fair to the striker, if they were both given a level playing field?.

I think it's fair to say that the topic has been done to death at least once a year since 2004!
If somebody wants to get boxed in the head they need to take a step up from the league, simple as that.

Tim_Murphy

Niall0 wrote: »

Fair enough, i think alot of people would like to see judging of some form.
I suppose you would need more volunteers etc, might not be possible. If it can be done for the finals though i suppose its possible for the other rounds? Do ye have much hassle with the decisions for the finals?

I can't remember whether I judged some of them last year or not, I think I did but I'm not a 100%. I don't think there was hassle but that said my memory clearly isn't up to much! :pac:

mark.leonard

Thanks for the input Mark, I hope I'm not stepping on your toes with this.

Not at all, I love feedback and I'm happy to get it

Sid_Justice

Rob01 wrote: »

So if you had a fantastic boxer/MT who is using the MMA league as a stepping stone, who does well for 4 mins but can't strike to the head & gets caught in a submission by a very good grappler, your saying that the person should not compete at D or C class?

That's a bit of a wild statement to make!

generally speaking no, if you're getting subbed by people in the mmaleague you're not good enough to be fighting at C class. Now, there could be an exception like fighting someone like Tom King or some random purple belt, but if you can't control this fight for 5 minutes and not get subbed you probably need more time on the mat and less time in the ring/cage.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

I think it's fair to say that the topic has been done to death at least once a year since 2004!
If somebody wants to get boxed in the head they need to take a step up from the league, simple as that.

If thats your attitude about it you can have it Tim, I don't think you or I have anything else to discuss re. the league.

mark.leonard wrote: »

Not at all, I love feedback and I'm happy to get it

Thanks for your time, I never realized you were done to death with discussing the league.

As I said, from the start I knew it was the event was popular - there were a lot more competitors than I'd expected to see. I guess introducing head shots might reduce those number's, and that wouldn't be in your interest at all.

Best of luck with it, seems like good ol' craic.

Sid_Justice

Angelique Harsh Chalkboard wrote: »

If thats your attitude about it you can have it Tim, I don't think you or I have anything else to discuss re. the league.



Thanks for your time, I never realized you were done to death with discussing the league.

As I said, from the start I knew it was the event was popular - there were a lot more competitors than I'd expected to see. I guess introducing head shots might reduce those number's, and that wouldn't be in your interest at all.

Best of luck with it, seems like good ol' craic.

Makicomi, neither me nor Tim Murphy were deliberating being cheeky, I hope you don't think that. But he is right. literally everyone who is better at kick boxing then grappling comes back from the league saying:

It's biased against stand up
it's nothing but glorified grappling
If i would have been allowed to punch in the head I wouldn't have got caught in a really basic submission and demonstrated no ability to defend

The league is really for people looking to wet their feet, Barry Oglesbys and the old informal UFR competitions are the business for getting a bit of head striking experience, not the league.

Jason McCabe

I would argue that a striker needs to learn submissions or will get found out very quick in the cage so the league is actually a good place for them to start. They might not get using their A game but that's what will be good for them. It focuses them to work their ground

My bug bear at the league is guys pretending to be rookies. We take our lads down after about 7 or 8 months training and you find out they are fighting thai boxing coaches or guys who have been doing judo 8 years

It doesn't happen all the time but this puts some guys out of the sport.

There should be a drop down box asking how many years fighting experience people have and if there are no vets on the day don't be putting them in with rookies

Tim_Murphy

Angelique Harsh Chalkboard wrote: »

If thats your attitude about it you can have it Tim, I don't think you or I have anything else to discuss re. the league.

No need to get cranky boss. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your suggestions, I'm just saying that it all has been discussed many times already. Nothing wrong with doing it again if people want to though!

Just to be clear, though I've helped out at the league a wee bit it is completely Mark's baby, I'm just offering my own personal opinions. I haven't even been to league events that much over the last while. Jim is def the new Tim at this stage!

+1 to what Jason said too.

mark.leonard

Angelique Harsh Chalkboard wrote: »

Thanks for your time, I never realized you were done to death with discussing the league.

Not sure what you mean by this?

Angelique Harsh Chalkboard wrote: »

As I said, from the start I knew it was the event was popular - there were a lot more competitors than I'd expected to see. I guess introducing head shots might reduce those number's, and that wouldn't be in your interest at all.

Head shots are not allowed for the reasons discussed above and are not related to numbers. I ran the league for years with very few people at it and its only through perseverance its achieved the popularity it has now. I think I have put enough time in over the years to deserve a bit more respect than that snide comment implies, but what do I know

Angelique Harsh Chalkboard wrote: »

Best of luck with it, seems like good ol' craic.

Thanks Makki. Ask anyone who has fought in the League and they will agree with you that it is a lot of fun!

mark.leonard

Jason McCabe wrote: »

My bug bear at the league is guys pretending to be rookies. We take our lads down after about 7 or 8 months training and you find out they are fighting thai boxing coaches or guys who have been doing judo 8 years

It doesn't happen all the time but this puts some guys out of the sport.

There should be a drop down box asking how many years fighting experience people have and if there are no vets on the day don't be putting them in with rookies

At Dublin I had intended to address this and I believe Jim did, did you see an improvement in Rookie/Vet handling?

Jason McCabe

Well in fairness one of our guys fought a vet in Dublin but he was asked if he was ok with it first. This was fair

They are especially good for teens I think. I'd love to see more attending as it is great for future of Irish mma

Mellor

lukeyjudo wrote: »

I'd rather continue coaching my guys that mount is for putting a hole in someone's face.

We were talking about MMA league, so the above comments makes little sense???

Rob01

Mellor wrote: »

We were talking about MMA league, so the above comments makes little sense???

Makes plenty of sense......

What Luke is saying is, he is coaching his team to maintain top position in MMA with the idea to end the fight through strikes & not pull off an armbar from mount as was suggested earlier & that the MMA league is a stepping stone for the C class fights!

Mellor

Rob01 wrote: »

Makes plenty of sense......

What Luke is saying is, he is coaching his team to maintain top position in MMA with the idea to end the fight through strikes & not pull off an armbar from mount as was suggested earlier & that the MMA league is a stepping stone for the C class fights!

Sigh, I know what Luke was saying, I had no problem understanding his metaphor. But strikes to the head aren't allowed in MMA league, which is why it made no sense in relation to this topic. For other classes of course, but not in league.

Also, the armbar from mount was a lighthearted comment in response to Luke's point that a submission from mount was difficult for participants in the league. He brought up submissions from mount to begin with, my reply wasn't that serious.

Rob01

Mellor wrote: »

Sigh, I know what Luke was saying, I had no problem understanding his metaphor. But strikes to the head aren't allowed in MMA league, which is why it made no sense in relation to this topic. For other classes of course, but not in league.

Also, the armbar from mount was a lighthearted comment in response to Luke's point that a submission from mount was difficult for participants in the league. He brought up submissions from mount to begin with, my reply wasn't that serious.

I know it was lighthearted, i got that from your face! Maybe were just on different paths here, I think it does make sense in as far as the topic goes. he's just saying we'll train for MMA in general & not specifically for the MMA league where if you end up in mount, to win your going to need a submission, but he would still like to use to MMA league to gain experience for his team!