Should I accept it as something I don't get.

I accompanied two people to a film called The change up, It's not the sort of film I would choose to go to in a million years ( of its type it wasn't a bad film and it did raise some interesting point about the grass is greener type thinking)......But the language was unbelievably the two main characters were two white middle class men in their thirties ( i.e. it wasn't the wire or a film about some other sub culture group )

Ever second word was **** this and **** that and there was a lot of casual reference to porn and crude references to sex ( I know I am digging a hole for my self and making my self sound like a prude but honestly I am not prudish at all )

I cant get my head around how bad language has become acceptable in every day society, I think its the one thing that is a real marker of the generations and I am of an age where I am shocked by casual bad language where as my daughters don't think anything of it at all. I must be getting old.

stargazer 68

Well I havent seen this movie yet but Im sure I will. I thought it was just me though - went to see Bridesmaids which was very funny but some of the language was completely unnecessary! I am far from a prude but I just didnt get the point of it.

looksee

I think there comes a stage where 'bad' language just becomes lazy, ineffective language. 'Blimey' and 'bloody' were the bad language of my childhood and completely forbidden to me, now they are mild expletives or not used at all.

I agree with you about f-ing everything, but now I do not really hear it as 'bad' language, just evidence of a person's inability to express themself. Its not a word I use myself, though I do find 'feckin' quite useful at times

OldGoat

(I apologise in advance if anyone is offended by my use of the word 'fcuk' in this post.)


I love language in all it's shapes and styles including profanities and am oft heard feckin' and blindin' especially when driving but I use foul language as points of emphasis, staccato jabs to punch a message home. Overuse of those jabs lessens their impact for me. Hearing a conversation with profanities liberlly thrown in for no reason is really tedious and often cringworthy and ultimatly distasteful.

However I have to admire the beauty of a well turned phrase and in Ireland more then all other English speaking countries I've visited we can the work 'Fcuk' in the most creative ways. It serves all uses. It's a noun and a verb. It can express joy, pleasure, loss, pain, lust, disblief, acceptance, enthusiam, reluctance and a gazillion other states of mind. Where else in the world can you tell someone to "Fcuk off" as a statment of disblief?
"I passed my driving test."
"Fcuk off".
"I did! Really."
"Fcuking proud of ya."

One of the most wonderful phrases I ever heard uttered was "Would you ever fcuk off you fcukin' fcuker."
Gotta love it.

There are other words creeping into the lexicon that I'm not comfortable with. Discribing things in a frivolous manner as being 'Rapey' is one in particular that I dislike. It's trivilasing an act of violance that I believe should remain shocking.

Language is rich and diverse and constantly evolving. New words come along and enter the lexicon for better or for worse but you just have to accept that they ARE part of the language. Just treat them as part of your personal Idiot Filter. If someones use of profanities offends you then don't invite them to dinner.

That is an excellent post and while constant **** in conversation makes me cringe I find people using the word cu#nt much worse, it hasn't make its way in to film and TV yet, but wait and see!

stargazer 68

mariaalice wrote: »

That is an excellent post and while constant **** in conversation makes me cringe I find people using the word cu#nt much worse, it hasn't make its way in to film and TV yet, but wait and see!

Eh unfortunately yes it has - bridesmaids and that new programme on channel 4 - cant remember the name of it but it started last week with the guy from the inbetweeners!

deman

I can't imagine how Blimey could ever have been considered bad language. I think I've even heard Cliff Richard use Blimey

But, yes, I agree with the OP. Crude language has become way too acceptable in today's society. I blame Father Ted.

Rubecula

I don't think I am a prude, far from it, but I don't generally swear at all. Just the way I was raised I suppose.

I am not a good two shoes either and I have been known to use the 'F' word when either I bang my head or hammer my thumb type of thing. Apart from that the only time I resort to swearing beyond the occassional 'Bloody' is when I am very angry and I am incapable of constructing a proper sentence.

looksee

deman wrote: »

I can't imagine how Blimey could ever have been considered bad language. I think I've even heard Cliff Richard use Blimey

But, yes, I agree with the OP. Crude language has become way too acceptable in today's society. I blame Father Ted.

Well my mother didn't approve of it! She said it meant 'may God blind me' and was a very undesirable thing to be wishing on yourself.:D

OldGoat

Is that really the origin of Blimey? I just assumed that it was just a bit of an englishism like Cor, luv a duck, strewth and so on.
Just goes to prove that you are never too old to learn.

reallyrose

I don't count as an Oulwan, so I probably shouldn't be here... ¬_¬

However, I don't think a dislike of swearing is related to age. I hate movies that are f'in and blinding. I really don't like Kevin Smith, for example. Those movies are just crude.

Swearing for emphasis can be quite funny. Like when Wolverine proves to Cyclops that he is the real Wolverine by saying "Well, you're a d1ck!".
Or in violent movies, the swearing can highlight the violence to make it all more harrowing.

But the frat-boy movies, where swearing is a sort of sniggering teenage "hurr, we're so grown up, we can say naughty words" drives me nuts.

looksee

OldGoat wrote: »

Is that really the origin of Blimey? I just assumed that it was just a bit of an englishism like Cor, luv a duck, strewth and so on.
Just goes to prove that you are never too old to learn.

Well Strewth is 'God's truth' and Cor is God, not sure about luv a duck, probably just encouraging affection for ducks

cml387

and "bloody" is a corruption of "By Our Lady" I was told once.

Jellybaby1

I don’t like having to listen to bad language in everyday conversation. It doesn’t shock me any more, but it does insult me. Sadly in the hammer-hitting-thumb situations, I confess that I can sink to a lower level and swear myself so I do accept there is a time and a place. However, in normal conversation I refrain, it’s a concentrated effort on my part not to swear. I believe it is a terrible waste of breath when you can use that breath to say something more articulate.

The first time I heard the f word in a film was when I went to see ‘Love Story’. My jaw fell to the floor. There were so many f’s and I couldn’t see any reason for it because up to that time (I was just a teenager when the film came out) the only times I heard it said was usually in anger or agony but in the film it was just in normal conversation without any good reason. In my childhood I understood it to be gutter language.

One of my favourite comedians is Billy Connolly. I watched him on the Parky show for years and loved him; he made me laugh until I was almost sick. Then many years later I saw one of his stage shows on TV – and it was almost all f’s! It was obvious he was playing to a particular crowd but I was so disappointed because he was a naturally funny guy who was just using bad language for effect, and had already proved on TV programmes that he didn’t really need it to be funny. The audience were in stitches just because he said f.

There used to be a time when gentlemen wouldn’t dream of swearing in front of a lady – that day has gone, and a lot of ‘ladies’ do just as much swearing now. I used to work with a 30yr old woman who couldn’t construct one sentence without at least one f, and one sh--! It became very boring listening to her all day every day. And as for parents f-ing and blinding in front of their young children, aren’t parents supposed to set a good example for their children? When did the rules change? Do ‘gentlemen’ or ‘ladies’ exist any more?

I know quite a few people who cannot bring themselves to swear mainly because they were brought up in homes where bad language was never in use, so it is not in their nature to swear. These days they are considered dinosaurs I suppose. The worst I ever heard my father say was ‘bloody’ or ‘ruddy’ and I expect he felt they sufficed and he was in the army during WW2, disciplined soldier that he was.

If someone swears continuously in conversation with me they are assaulting my senses with verbal violence. But could I just ask a question, is there anyone you know who you would not swear in front of, your mother, father, child, a nun, a teacher, the little old lady next door, or do you just not care? If there is anyone who you respect enough not to swear, then does that mean you do not respect other people when you do swear?

I notice a lot more swearing on RTE morning time radio in recent years – what happened to the 8pm water-shed? I wish grown adults would be more disciplined on national radio/TV both interviewers and interviewees. One morning I heard several ‘Jaysus’s’ and ‘Christs’ as well – I’ve never heard it on BBC radio at this hour. The only time an RTE interviewer pulls up someone is when they say something which could land RTE in court. It even happens during the news bulletin.

Long winded I know, and I apologise, just wanted to make my point. You all hate me now, don’t you?

Rubecula

The first time I used the F word was as a young child, someone had chalked across the pavement. I said to my mum who was with me at the time (Taking me to school I think) "Mum what does F*** mean?" She beat me all the way to the school gates. "Never say that awful wicked word ever again."

The next time I used it, I was helping her move a massive old sideboard. I lifted she pushed....and trapped my hand in the door frame we were taking it through.

She nearly wet herself laughing. Mothers eh? Never get to understand them.:pac:

To be honest it is not a word we ever used in the house, so I grew up not really using it.

Spread

Calm fcuking down the lot of ye!:mad: There are 26 letters in the alphabet ........ take any four at random and throw them together ........ OK, at some stage you come up with fcuk. Now people in ivory towers might find an excuse to frown upon a person who uses this word - one of the most versatile in the English language. I use it frequently and on a few occasions have been pulled for it. I explain that if they don't like the English language so used ........ I can translate it into French or German for them.
I think the reason that it fell into disrepute stems from snobbery. In olden days, unskilled workers who were not good at articulation used the f word frequently. Of course the educated/well off/snobs, in their never-ending quest to seperate themselves from the lower orders made some words taboo. This is my own fcuking take on the fcuk word. Estuary English uses the word in everyday parlance. Innit

looksee

It didn't 'fall into disrepute', it started there. And it is not versatile, it simply means the sex act. Over time it has come to have offensive overtones rather than being just descriptive.

The business about throwing any four letters together is true of any word, that is what language is. The intention with that word is to be offensive, so it is; though repetition has made it unimaginative and boring rather than provocative.

MyKeyG

looksee wrote: »

I think there comes a stage where 'bad' language just becomes lazy, ineffective language.

This hits the nail right on the head for me. In films like Goodfellas, Platoon, Die Hard etc you expect it because the subject matter itself is very coarse but in comedy's and some other dramas when used gratuitously it just seems out of place.

It doesn't bother me I just don't see then need. Contrary to a lot of opinions here though find it's been cut back on movies a bit recently probably because in the tough financial times production companies are trying to maximise target audience.

Jellybaby1

Spread wrote: »

Calm fcuking down the lot of ye!:mad:

Spread, don’t worry, I was extremely calm when I posted, no reason to for you to be :mad:, please just accept that there are many people who do not agree with you, perhaps that surprises you. You call the f word ‘versatile’ – I merely suggest using more interesting words rather than the same old, same old f, it becomes tedious. I don’t know if snobbery is the reason or not for it being disreputable to use, however, do you not agree that there is a time and a place for such language? Do you not agree that there is such a thing as good manners, respect, and really we shouldn’t pick and choose which laws we obey and which good manners we will employ? You seem to have bundled the educated/well off/snobs all in the one bag, perhaps you carry a chip on your shoulder? I wholeheartedly disagree with you. I don’t have to be educated/well off/a snob to prefer not to listen to f’s every second word (sometimes even in the middle of a word!). I would consider myself to be very much under-educated having left school at 12 years of age, a tenement child, absolutely not well off just working class, and definitely not a snob as I have nothing with which to be snobbish, no money, no position, no…..ivory tower.


I was interested in the Estuary English you mentioned and I had a quick read of Wiki and found this “Some people adopt the accent as a means of "blending in", appearing to be more working class, or in an attempt to appear to be "a common man" – sometimes this affectation of the accent is derisively referred to as "Mockney".

Then I found this…“British Black English (BBE) is a variety of the English language spoken by a large number of the Black British population of African Caribbean ancestry.[1] The British Black dialect is heavily influenced by Jamaican English owing to the large number of British immigrants from Jamaica, but it is also spoken by those of different ancestry”.

My daughter having lived in London said a lot of traditional British, white Londoners now use this BBE accent. It’s all to do with ‘blending in’. Like that old excuse, ‘everyone does it’, but that really means ‘everyone I know does it’. Spread, if you suddenly stopped swearing I would say all your circle of friends would notice it immediately and you would feel quite the leper. We can only agree to disagree.

looksee wrote: »

It didn't 'fall into disrepute', it started there. And it is not versatile, it simply means the sex act. Over time it has come to have offensive overtones rather than being just descriptive.

The business about throwing any four letters together is true of any word, that is what language is. The intention with that word is to be offensive, so it is; though repetition has made it unimaginative and boring rather than provocative.

looksee, you said it in a nutshell! Well done, I wish I was educated like you!

Rubecula

Spread wrote: »

There are 26 letters in the alphabet ........ take any four at random and throw them together ........

Well if you need four letters to say an expletive you could try saying "XQZK"

By the time you have pronounced it everyone will have buggered off. (Am I allowed to say "buggered" by the way?

Spread

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Spread, don’t worry, I was extremely calm when I posted, no reason to for you to be :mad:, please just accept that there are many people who do not agree with you, perhaps that surprises you.:D

Well I'll be fcuked!

Beruthiel

I swear like a trooper. Don't even know I'm doing most of the time....

OldGoat

Rubecula wrote: »

(Am I allowed to say "buggered" by the way?

Swear Filter says...Yes you can.

Jellybaby1

Spread wrote: »

Well I'll be fcuked!

Just noticed that you are situated in USA. Probably explains a lot!:cool:

golden virginia

mariaalice wrote: »

I accompanied two people to a film called The change up, It's not the sort of film I would choose to go to in a million years ( of its type it wasn't a bad film and it did raise some interesting point about the grass is greener type thinking)......But the language was unbelievably the two main characters were two white middle class men in their thirties ( i.e. it wasn't the wire or a film about some other sub culture group )

Ever second word was **** this and **** that and there was a lot of casual reference to porn and crude references to sex ( I know I am digging a hole for my self and making my self sound like a prude but honestly I am not prudish at all )

I cant get my head around how bad language has become acceptable in every day society, I think its the one thing that is a real marker of the generations and I am of an age where I am shocked by casual bad language where as my daughters don't think anything of it at all. I must be getting old.

I have to tell you about the time when I ended up watching last tango in paris with me owldad. it just came up by accident on the telly! We thought Paris looked just gorgeous, and the Film took a turn at the butter scene ( I would describe this but I could be banned). Does anyone here remember the first time the heard the word beginning with f. I do.....it was ....i was a kid and i asked what does F mean and was told that it was sexual intercourse.Nobody I have ever Known since has disputed that interpretation of the meaning. F means to me agghhh or xxxx or !!! when i trip over the cat but if its used to bad effect, it could become threatening.

To get back to that oulfilm, We watched the full film because the moment became so tense, neither one of us wanted to be the first to get up, or to change the channel out of embarassment, so it ended up that me and my daddy watched a full lenght feature film that was not at all about dancing or paris. It was the ultimate in cringe!. So even though i can laugh at it now as a funny memory- at the time it was effing hell!

Spread

looksee wrote: »

It didn't 'fall into disrepute', it started there. And it is not versatile, it simply means the sex act. Over time it has come to have offensive overtones rather than being just descriptive.

The business about throwing any four letters together is true of any word, that is what language is. The intention with that word is to be offensive, so it is; though repetition has made it unimaginative and boring rather than provocative.

As an antiexpurgationist I tend to cast a cynical eye at censorship. If the intention of the word is to be offensive, then someone described as "fcuking beautiful" could take offence. Or a team described as "fcuking brilliant". Just as fcuk was banned from print for years (and has now surfaced in most mediums) language evolves and that is what keeps it vibrant. Nancy Mitford's U and nonU illustrates this. Also, The Origins Of English (I think) by Melvyn Bragg printed about a decade ago. Elitism by the middle classes and lower upper classes propelled some words to be U or nonU. The truly wealthy, intellectual aristocracy and peasants didn't give a fcuk mind as to what others thought. Insecurity did not seem to affect them as much.

This excerpt culled from The Times gives examples:

Proper people don't eat tomatoes

Jessica Jonzen

div#related-article-links p a, div#related-article-links p a:visited { color: rgb(0, 102, 204); } Do you keep tomatoes in your fridge? If so, you may never make it into the English upper class. According to Mary Killen, etiquette columnist for The Spectator, she has friends who think tomatoes are terribly vulgar and won’t have them in the house.
Nancy Mitford originally stirred up the class debate in 1954 by providing a glossary of terms used by the U and non-U in her essay The English Aristocracy.
U’s, for example, used a looking glass rather than a mirror, wore spectacles, not glasses, and were rich rather than wealthy. Anyone not au fait with U language — who talked about serviettes rather than napkins, for instance — instantly betrayed themselves, in her view, as not one of us.
An anxious class debate ensued which, as the sniping reports of Prince William’s pals sniggering “doors to manual” whenever Kate Middleton was near (a tribute to her mother’s former career as an air stewardess) demonstrate, hasn’t gone away.
Jilly Cooper suggests the modern-day mark of the non-U is political correctness, but what are the other pitfalls for would-be middle-class princesses?
Killen suggests that today a gentleman never pushes a trolley in a supermarket, he always uses a basket. The upper classes also never eat between meals or refer to them as such; it is always breakfast, lunch or dinner.
But it’s also not what you say but the way that you say it. Butter, for example, is “orf”, never rancid, and the Rothschilds have a very nice “hice” rather than home.
AA Gill agrees. Our obsession with U and non-U words is, he insists, an entirely middle-class affectation and as soon as a word is recognised as U, it automatically becomes non-U. Toilet was a very smart word for the Edwardians, as it came from the French. It went out of fashion, though, when their servants adopted it.
It’s your accent that really marks you out, and even that is changing. “When you compare how the Queen spoke at 18 to the way she does now, she has a very standard upper-middle-class accent these days,” says Gill.
As the vulgarity of the tomato demonstrates, the contents of your fridge can also prove a minefield of potentially embarrassing gaffes. The upper class, for example, will only eat runny home-made marmalade, never glutinous or heaven forbid, with “no bits”.
“The ebb and flow of snobbery,” says Gill, “is best exemplified by the pineapple.” Once the ultimate symbol of belonging to the upper echelons of society (King Charles II was even painted holding one), as soon as it was put into tins it lost its social cachet. It now appears as the topping to Hawaiian pizza, “the most common thing you could eat”, he says.
One of the oldest gaffes you can make when rubbing shoulders with the U is being flash with your cash. You are, after all, far more likely to see the Queen at the wheel of a mud-spattered Land Rover Defender than in a sparkling Porsche Cayenne. And walk down London’s King’s Road, the mecca of the original Sloane Ranger, and you won’t see bona-fide members of the U wearing designer labels. In fact they are far more likely to be seen in holey tracksuit bottoms, with unwashed hair and bare feet. Kate may well have been a bit too well-groomed.
She may also have worn a little too much black. Apparently an elderly couple who live in the same Berkshire village as the Middletons refused to sell them their home because Carole wore black. This indicated the family would bring down the tone of the village. How oddly prophetic.
An oft-cited class indicator is grandmother snobbery, going up from “nan” to “grandma” through to “granny” and, in Wills’s case, “Your Majesty”.
According to Gill, the whole class debate was invented by the middle class and the media and the thing that the upper and lower classes have in common is that neither cares about it. None of this is demonstrated more clearly than the rumour that the Queen is rather partial to Coronation Street.