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Plan B for public transport in Ireland: BRT!


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub

    More like plan Z

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day

    Gives new meaning to the word plan. :rolleyes:

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob

    Is this not the same plan as the late 1970s early 1980s plan which involved turning what later became Temple Bar into a giant Bus Station ???

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,205 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu

    done properly, I don't see why this wouldn't be a good development - I think we'd get a lot more bang for our buck (my main grumble about Metro north was that it involved an enormous outlay but only served one transport corridor).

    by "done properly" I mean not run by CIE for a start; it would also involve giving the buses actual priority at junctions and taking significant amounts of road-space away from cars, so some serious political will would be required.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,281 ✭✭✭dubhthach

    Of course part of the idea of this BRT route (Vincents to Sandyford) is to run it on the road reservation for the Eastern Bypass. It would at least give it a certain amount of grade seperation. Of course if they do go ahead with it what's the odds that "Integrated Ticketing" won't be in place still :rolleyes:

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,205 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu

    dubhthach wrote: »
    Of course part of the idea of this BRT route (Vincents to Sandyford) is to run it on the road reservation for the Eastern Bypass. It would at least give it a certain amount of grade seperation. Of course if they do go ahead with it what's the odds that "Integrated Ticketing" won't be in place still :rolleyes:

    IT is currently in final testing, all cynicism aside I think it will launch soon enough.

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy
    MINISTER FOR Transport Leo Varadkar has said he is willing to sell assets, over and beyond the stake in Aer Lingus, to raise money for capital projects.

    He is also considering new tolls on the M50, and possibly the Jack Lynch tunnel, and securitising toll revenues in a bid to raise funds for a capital programme that includes a number of costly rail projects.

    Mr Varadkar told The Irish Times he is in favour of adding multiple tolling points on the M50 and described the current system as inequitable. “It is quite unfair that people pay quite a high toll just to travel one bit of the M50 and nothing for the rest of it.”

    “I think multipoint [tolling] on the M50 is a good idea. It makes sense to me and we figure there would be an extra €50 million a year in from that.”

    The Minister is also examining the potential for other tolling points around Dublin, and on the Jack Lynch tunnel, although he said this would be “very politically controversial”.

    The current M50 tolling system was designed to handle multiple tolling points and the Minister said the required planning permission is also in place.

    Mr Varadkar said he was awaiting confirmation from the Department of Finance and Public Expenditure that additional toll revenues could be retained by the department, before proceeding.

    “I am only interested in pursuing it if I knew the money was going to be used for new road projects and road maintenance. I will have to have a deep and meaningful [conversation] with Noonan and Howlin on that.”

    However, he cautioned that installing additional tolling points was expensive and would take time. “So even if we did it [multipoint tolling on the M50] we wouldn’t be expecting any revenues until 2015.”

    An alternative is to securitise toll revenues. “That is one of the things under consideration. You agree to get the toll revenues as one block upfront but then the downside is you don’t get toll revenues for the next nine years. It might give you the resources you need to fund a capital programme.”

    This would effectively mean handing over ownership of certain tolled roads for a period of about 10 years. The Minister said any such contract would contain limits on the level of toll increase that could be imposed and that all of the tolled roads would be considered for such a scheme.

    Mr Varadkar is considering additional asset sales because the weakness of the exchequer finances means no new road projects of any significance will commence before 2015 and “as things stand I would be lucky to get any of the rail projects through.

    “The spending review is very difficult.”

    Among the rail projects are the multibillion-euro Metro North, Dart Underground, a rail spur to Dublin airport from the Dart line at Clongriffin and a link-up for the two Luas lines, Line BXD.

    It is highly unlikely the first three will proceed on cost grounds, leaving Line BXD as the only option.

    A briefing document prepared for the Minister earlier this year noted that Ireland’s financial position was making it difficult to secure finance for major road and rail infrastructure projects.

    Mr Varadkar said it would be a “big mistake” for the State to stop investing in infrastructure.

    “My view is that you need to continue to invest in the economy to build new roads where they are needed and to invest in the public transport system, but we won’t be able to do that unless we are prepared to take tough decisions on current spending.

    “I am willing to sell assets to help buttress the capital programme.”

    He said the sale of all assets including airports, ports and roads, with the exception of the public transport companies, would be considered.

    The Minister added that he has received a number of expressions of interest in Aer Lingus, from “airlines and investment firms” and said once the pension issue at the airline was resolved at the end of this year, the number of interested parties was likely to increase.


    Public transport fares will rise next year to compensate for a reduced subsidy from the State, according to Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar.

    “The reduction in the subsidy to CIÉ over the next few years will be in the region of a 20 per cent cut so that will have to be met through a combination of fare increases, cost-cutting and cuts to services. Obviously I favour cost-cutting over higher fares or cutting services.”

    He added that cash fares will increase “a good bit” to encourage people to switch to an integrated ticket, which the Minister expects to be available in 2012.

    Mr Varadkar said he also supported a move towards “Ryanair-style” ticket pricing for Irish Rail where passengers are offered cheaper fares if they book far in advance.

    “I think it is the right way go – it mightn’t be very popular with consumers – but from a financial point of view it is the right way to go.”

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,087 ✭✭✭markpb

    The only way this can be done properly is by having physically segregated bus lanes along the entire route, by operating multi-door (bi-)articulated buses, by refusing to accept cash on-board the bus, by eliminating any contact between driver and passengers and by giving the buses vastly more priority at junctions than they currently do.

    Basically you'd need to build this except that it had the benefit of being built on a railway right of way so it has segregation by design, something that will be extremely difficult to do in Dublin.

    Does anyone genuinely believe that all that will happen?

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Jehuty42

    Looks like a cop out to me, we won't see any rail investment now, no Metro North, no DU. I would love to be proved wrong.

    Not to sound ignorant, but does the south east of the city really need another transport corridor? I mean between Luas Green, DART, the N11 bus corridor, it seems to me to be a very well served area as is.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,050 ✭✭✭SeanW


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,817 ✭✭✭cgcsb

    I'm all for BRT in Dublin, but nobody should be under any illusion that this will somehow be a replacement for the proposed DARTu and MetroN.

    It could actually be done fairly easily in Dublin as long as we abandon our O'Connell Street fetish when it comes to bus routes.

    One route I would propose is running a BRT line down the Malahide road from Clarehall all the way down to Amien st in the centre of the road/central reserve where applicable. Crossing the bridge over to Moss st/Shaw st(which can have private traffic removed, as it's not that busy)

    then a left onto Pearse st and a right onto Merrian Row, go arround merrion square onto Fitwilliam Place, and then right accross Leeson Bridge and continue in the centre of the N11 out to Bray.

    There is enough road space on this route to keep it almost completely free from private traffic, except a spot in Fairview and a spot at the bottom of Amien St and Donnybrook Village. It would require the elimination of some on street parking and some existing bus lanes, but very doable over all.

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭Cathaoirleach

    I have it on good authority that Luas BXD is to be deferred, so it's no wonder they're now talking about BRT.

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter

    Personally, I believe there will be no rail based investment in Dublin. The signs have been clear for a long time. One Government saying yes based on T21 and another Government realising that we actually haven't got a pot to piss in.

    Whatever about the reality of our current financial situation, the last Government had the dough and fudged it circa 2006.

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,514 ✭✭✭PseudoFamous

    Excellent, now we can build more bus lanes and make more dual carriageways into effectively one lane each way for private traffic.
    That will DEFINITELY help congestion. Good work, Minister.

    Also, selling off government stakes in return generating businesses is shooting yourself in the foot.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,295 ✭✭✭dowlingm

    The article above is why governments shouldn't own airlines and stuff in a deregulated environment. Governments sell when they are broke and prices are low. But when big sale prices are available governments say "shure why would we sell? We're flush and we can promise jobs on their boards to our mates" :mad::rolleyes:

  • Registered Users Posts: 25,243 ✭✭✭✭Jesus Wept

    markpb wrote: »
    Basically you'd need to build this except that it had the benefit of being built on a railway right of way so it has segregation by design, something that will be extremely difficult to do in Dublin.
    During the first few months of operations on the Orange Line, there were collisions with cars at level crossings about once a week. There were several injuries but no fatalities and in each case the driver of the other vehicle was determined to be at fault. The LACMTA has noted that the Orange Line had about the same accident rate as other bus lines in the city on a per-mile basis,[5][6] and has stated more recently that the line's accident rate is "less than half" of the MTA's entire fleet of buses.[7] The Blue Line also had a significant number of collisions in its early years and currently has the highest fatality rate in North America.[8]
    After two collisions in November 2005 and one car driver was critically injured the MTA issued a "slow order" for every driver of every Orange Line bus; until further notice, all buses had to slow down to 10 miles (16 km) per hour (15 km/h) while going through every intersection along the transitway, as opposed to the 25-30 mph (40–50 km/h) speed limit originally put on line intersections.[9] MTA officials pledged that they would review any and all ideas to improve safety on the line and report back to the public in a timely manner. They also installed white strobe lights on the sides of the buses to improve visibility.[10]
    In December 2005, MTA called for the installation of red-light cameras at many of the Orange Line's intersections.[11] As of May 2006, installation is still continuing,[12] and the cameras are supposed to be operational by August 2006.[dated info]
    Some residents have protested aspects of the Orange Line, saying that the buses should have been painted orange to be more noticeable (instead of the silver scheme they currently have). Others have concerns that the transitway does not employ railroad crossing-style arms or lights (or grade separations) to prevent motorists from crossing that roadway while a bus approaches, relying instead on traffic lights and warning signs.

    Imagine the carnage here.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,087 ✭✭✭markpb

    The-Rigger wrote: »
    Imagine the carnage here.

    The Luas Red line operates more on street than the MTA Orange Line and it isn't plagued by accidents. The orange line suffered from initial setting in problems with motorists but again has been fine since. A lot like our Red line in fact.