Work Permits

Robdude

I've been a software developer (.NET) for the last five years, in the United States. I like to think I'm fairly good at it. I'm an MCP/MCTS have a B.S. in Computer Science and am currently working on my MS in Computer Science. Anyway, I've done a lot of work, but it's all been desktop applications.

I'm trying to find a job here in Dublin but the majority of what I see is either not .NET (and employers aren't interested in me) or .NET web development (and employers aren't interested in me).

Anyway, I'm looking to *donate* my time to help you build or maintain your website. Anything that uses HTML, Javascript, CSS, jQuery, ASP.NET, Ajax - if you don't know what that means - not a problem.

I only ask that it be appropriate for work (IE - no adult content, hate sites, etc...) and either a business, club, or organization. If you really like Justin Beiber and want a fan website; I'm probably not interested - but if you have a band, or have a small business, or coach a football team or anything else - let's talk.

On the other hand, if you already have a site and want some custom coding done (I'm a far better programmer than I am graphic artist; if you need a new logo, I'm probably not the guy to make it) or maybe you have a software company and want an unpaid intern for a while?

I am a full-time student this semester; I'm probably only looking to spend about 8-10 hours per week. So don't expect a new Amazon.co.uk built from the ground up...in two weeks. But if you think this sounds like a good idea, let's talk.

You can shoot me a PM if you prefer, or just reply here. I don't know if anyone will go for this or not; but I won't be able to do more than one at a time.

Cheers

P.S. Just to be clear - you don't pay me anything ever. You get to keep anything I write for you.

stevenmu

You could post you offer on adverts.ie, might get more responses:
http://www.adverts.ie/available/jobs-services/269

I think there's sections there for people looking for services and one for volunteer work too.

John_Mc

Surprised that no one is interested in employing you. Could it be that it's because you're still in the U.S? I'm getting calls nearly every day from recruiters looking for .Net developers, and I'm not actively looking nor do I have a M$ certification.

Best of luck with your OP, it's a good idea and fair play for taking the initiative!

srsly78

Loads of .net work around, you are doing something wrong. You are studying for your MS? Full-time or are you not available 5 days a week?

Also, a verry minor detail but, can you legally work in Ireland? Student visa does not entitle you to work full-time.

COYW

Shocked that you are not getting work OP. .Net is going well here at the moment. Any feedback on why companies are not interested? Did you ask them?

Robdude

John_Mc wrote: »

Surprised that no one is interested in employing you. Could it be that it's because you're still in the U.S? I'm getting calls nearly every day from recruiters looking for .Net developers, and I'm not actively looking nor do I have a M$ certification.

Best of luck with your OP, it's a good idea and fair play for taking the initiative!

srsly78 wrote: »

Loads of .net work around, you are doing something wrong. You are studying for your MS? Full-time or are you not available 5 days a week?

Also, a verry minor detail but, can you legally work in Ireland? Student visa does not entitle you to work full-time.

Sorry for not being more clear....

My wife and I moved to Ireland so she could attend veterinary school at UCD. Her being a student gives me no right to work or even stay in Ireland. I am full-time student this semester, working on my Master's degree; but it's at Colorado State University (back in the United States). I don't even have a student visa.

I've been living in Dublin for about three weeks now. In another 11 weeks I'll fly back to Chicago, then turn around and fly back to Dublin and be able to stay another three months.

I've received phone calls and e-mails but it seems like the combination of needing a work permit or green card *and* not being a perfect fit for a job is too much. I have seen some non-web .Net development, but it seems less common. Many of the companies won't even look at my CV knowing I need sponsorship and the ones that are willing want someone who is exactly what they are looking for.

I think the biggest problem is my work status. I'm just looking for something productive that would improve my skillset and CV while I continue to hunt for a job. Either way, if I end up in the US or working here; the experience would be good for me.

Evil Phil

I was going to delete this, and I will later on. But here's your problem:

needing a work permit

Without one anybody who hires you is breaking the law if you don't have one.

Robdude

Evil Phil wrote: »

I was going to delete this, and I will later on. But here's your problem:



Without one anybody who hires you is breaking the law if you don't have one.

Which is why I clearly state my work-status on the first line of my CV.

I don't intend to break any laws in Ireland. I can legally work here, so long as I obtain a work permit or green card first. Before I can apply for either, I need to get a job offer, in writing, from a company legally in Ireland.

Many companies are not interested in dealing with the headaches of sponsorship. I respect their decision. Some companies *are* willing to consider candidates who would require some type of sponsorship to legally work; but they seem to be more conservative about who they are willing to hire. From what I understand, it's a big hassle for them and it can take weeks of sitting around waiting for the government to approve or deny the application for a work permit/green card.

But I have spoken to recruiters who represent companies that *would* consider sponsoring me, if my skill set were a better fit for them.

Anyway, I agree; please feel free to delete the thread at your convenience. I think it's gotten a bit off-topic.

srsly78

Rob, the part you are missing is that companies have to prove they cannot find a candidate from within the EU to fill the position before they can bring in a foreigner. In reality this means you have no chance at all, there are lots of unemployed Irish/EU software engineers that you are competing against. The company would have to make a very strong case that they can ONLY find a foreigner suitable for the position.

This is why in the UK they insist you bring your passport to interview (so they have proof they are interviewing EU candidates). Some places in Ireland have also started doing this.

John_Mc

srsly78 wrote: »

Rob, the part you are missing is that companies have to prove they cannot find a candidate from within the EU to fill the position before they can bring in a foreigner. In reality this means you have no chance at all, there are lots of unemployed Irish/EU software engineers that you are competing against.

Not true, the software development industry has come through the recession pretty much unscathed from my experience. There is actually a shortage of .Net/Java developers, and the company I work for is having problems filling these type of roles.

srsly78

Note the "EU" part in my post. Companies have trouble filling positions because they offer lousy money tbh

Also lots of grads are unemployed. 5 years experience isn't that much really, just above graduate level.

John_Mc

srsly78 wrote: »

Note the "EU" part in my post. Companies have trouble filling positions because they offer lousy money tbh

That is true, in particular the company I work for. Still though, that wouldn't stop you taking a job if you were unemployed! I'd say Europe is much the same as Ireland in terms of job opportunities for software developers

srsly78

It's just a legal thing really. A HR person could explain this better... Company would have to show ****loads of unsuccessful interviews with EU candidates before it could apply successfully for a work permit to get a foreigner in.

Webmonkey

srsly78 wrote: »

Note the "EU" part in my post. Companies have trouble filling positions because they offer lousy money tbh

Also lots of grads are unemployed. 5 years experience isn't that much really, just above graduate level.

I don't think 5 years experience is just above graduate level. You learn a load even in your first year in industry after college.

Robdude

srsly78 wrote: »

Rob, the part you are missing is that companies have to prove they cannot find a candidate from within the EU to fill the position before they can bring in a foreigner. In reality this means you have no chance at all, there are lots of unemployed Irish/EU software engineers that you are competing against. The company would have to make a very strong case that they can ONLY find a foreigner suitable for the position.

This is why in the UK they insist you bring your passport to interview (so they have proof they are interviewing EU candidates). Some places in Ireland have also started doing this.

I'm not a lawyer and I'm certainly not an expert on how things work in Ireland. But, my understanding is that the 'labour market needs test' you are referring to is a requirement of a work permit. Not of a Green Card.

Green cards are usually restricted to salaries greater than 60k euro per year, but there is Appendix A, identifying areas the Irish government feels represent a shortage of skilled candidates. Those positions require only a salary > 30k.

Appendix A includes positions in IT, Health Care, Engineering, Finance and Science/Research.

Work Permit Information:
http://www.djei.ie/publications/labour/2011/guidelines-workpermits-june11.pdf

Green Card Information:
http://www.djei.ie/publications/labour/2011/Guidelines-GreenCards-June11.pdf

srsly78

Yes. In theory they could get you a work permit. In reality there are lots of suitable EU candidates so they won't. It's a lot of extra paperwork and hassle for an employer.

Us Irish guys would get the same treatment in america tbh.

Robdude

srsly78 wrote: »

Yes. In theory they could get you a work permit. In reality there are lots of suitable EU candidates so they won't. It's a lot of extra paperwork and hassle for an employer.

Us Irish guys would get the same treatment in america tbh.

I'm not suggesting otherwise.

I just wanted to clarify that there is no need for them to show a lack of suitable EU candidates for green card applications.

Evil Phil

For the record folks, I'm leaving this thread open as it's turned into an interesting discussion on work permits. For future reference, offering your services for free or otherwise will result in that thread being deleted immediately.

Robdude

Evil Phil wrote: »

For the record folks, I'm leaving this thread open as it's turned into an interesting discussion on work permits. For future reference, offering your services for free or otherwise will result in that thread being deleted immediately.

My apologies; I should have checked the rules before posting. I won't do it again.

Galtee

Robdude wrote: »

I'm not a lawyer and I'm certainly not an expert on how things work in Ireland. But, my understanding is that the 'labour market needs test' you are referring to is a requirement of a work permit. Not of a Green Card.

Green cards are usually restricted to salaries greater than 60k euro per year, but there is Appendix A, identifying areas the Irish government feels represent a shortage of skilled candidates. Those positions require only a salary > 30k.

Appendix A includes positions in IT, Health Care, Engineering, Finance and Science/Research.

Work Permit Information:
http://www.djei.ie/publications/labour/2011/guidelines-workpermits-june11.pdf

Green Card Information:
http://www.djei.ie/publications/labour/2011/Guidelines-GreenCards-June11.pdf

According to the work permit information you're not eligible for a work permit as stated on page 4

[FONT=BookmanOldStyle,Bold][FONT=BookmanOldStyle,Bold][FONT=BookmanOldStyle,Bold]

Will employment permits be granted for applications proposing
to pay wages below Registered Employment Agreement/
Employment Registered Order rates?

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]No.

so to qualify for a permit you will at least have to fall in line with minimum wage wouldn't you?

srsly78

Robdude wrote: »

I just wanted to clarify that there is no need for them to show a lack of suitable EU candidates for green card applications.

Possibly correct because of the IT exception. Maybe I was confused because the UK has stricter rules.

@galtee: Obviously for a proper job he would want a proper salary. Who would apply for a permit to work for free?

Galtee

srsly78 wrote: »

Possibly correct because of the IT exception. Maybe I was confused because the UK has stricter rules.

@galtee: Obviously for a proper job he would want a proper salary. Who would apply for a permit to work for free?

Oh, maybe I've missed something, has it not turned out that the OP wants to get a part time job so that an application for a work permit can be made on his behalf by an employer on the premise that he has a job lined up? If this is the case then even a parttime job will require a permit to keep everything above board and in order to get a permit then payment would have to be in line (at least) with minimum wage and so the free work offer goes out the window?

Edit > @Bold Print - Well my point is that nobody can do that as per the work permits guide whether they wanted to or not.

srsly78

OP another reason employers are reluctant to consider you is the short duration of your planned stay here. They will likely think you will return to the US when your partner graduates.

Robdude

Galtee wrote: »

Oh, maybe I've missed something, has it not turned out that the OP wants to get a part time job so that an application for a work permit can be made on his behalf by an employer on the premise that he has a job lined up? If this is the case then even a parttime job will require a permit to keep everything above board and in order to get a permit then payment would have to be in line (at least) with minimum wage and so the free work offer goes out the window?

Edit > @Bold Print - Well my point is that nobody can do that as per the work permits guide whether they wanted to or not.

I'm sorry - this whole thread has gotten very confusing. That wasn't my intent. Let me try to clarify.

First, I want to say...

* I'm not trying to get a part-time job so I can get a work permit. Nor was I trying to work 'for free' and claim I'm an employee in order to get a work permit.

* I'm not trying to do anything that I know to be illegal. I'll respect the laws of Ireland for as long as I'm Ireland.

Everything I said in my first post was true. I am here with my wife, I'm a full-time student working on my Masters, I have some years of .Net development, and I'm looking for full-time work (and a green card) in Ireland.

When people commented that I might be 'doing something wrong' ; I wanted to clarify that it was my work-status and not some other bizarre quality I posses that makes it difficult for me to find work. But it is really unrelated to my goal. I'm primarily a WinForms developer and I want to transition into Web development because I see more positions for web development. I think that trend will continue into the future. Since I'm not currently working and being a student doesn't take all of my time, I've been playing with HTML, CSS, Javascript and ASP.NET.

I'd seen several people post in the Development section asking for someone to make them a website. I figured, instead of making fictional widgets in Javascript, I could help someone get their real website up and running. Not as an employee, just a random online thing. I answer questions on StackOverflow.com; I was thinking of this in the same vein.

The benefit I would get, is that I'd be able to honestly say, 'Yes, I have worked on commercial projects using jQuery'. That *might* help me get a job here in Ireland. It might not. But whether it is here or in the United States, I will get a job, eventually. And I would like to break out of the role of 'Windows' developer.

When the topic shifted to green cards and work permits - I didn't mean to imply that I was going to use my free 'work' to apply for either. I'll either legally and legitimately find a company or I will return to the United States with fond memories and no hard feelings.

Robdude

srsly78 wrote: »

OP another reason employers are reluctant to consider you is the short duration of your planned stay here. They will likely think you will return to the US when your partner graduates.

She will be here until May, 2015.

If I were able to find a job and stay until then, I'm not sure if we'd leave or not (assuming we could stay and eventually become a citizen. I don't know how all of that works). There are a lot of things about Ireland I prefer to the US.

Most likely, I won't find a job and I'll be back in the US. And when my wife finishes school she'll return to the US with me.

srsly78

Unfortunately you are one of the few employees that can be legally discriminated against. Can't discriminate on the basis of sex/age/ethnicity, but can totally disciminate against a candidate without a work permit.

Have you tried getting an american job that lets you work semi-remotely? A friend of mine used to regularly work 50/50 between europe/america. He had to stay 6 months in america to keep his green card, but his main job was in europe. Luckily employer was a multinational and facilitated this. But yeah, he was extremely lucky to get this (ffs he won the green card on lottery too lol).

Morlar

srsly78 wrote: »

Unfortunately you are one of the few employees that can be legally discriminated against. Can't discriminate on the basis of sex/age/ethnicity, but can totally disciminate against a candidate without a work permit.

Have you tried getting an american job that lets you work semi-remotely? A friend of mine used to regularly work 50/50 between europe/america. He had to stay 6 months in america to keep his green card, but his main job was in europe. Luckily employer was a multinational and facilitated this. But yeah, he was extremely lucky to get this (ffs he won the green card on lottery too lol).

I was thinking that too, an american multinational with offices in Dublin where you could interview/get hired and work for one office in the states, but do it all remote from their Dublin site.

If you did that and proved a good fit then your experience should make you indispensible to the position and you could possibly transfer offices officially at some point down the road.

Jim2007

Robdude wrote: »

I've been living in Dublin for about three weeks now. In another 11 weeks I'll fly back to Chicago, then turn around and fly back to Dublin and be able to stay another three months.

Have you got written confirmation from the Irish department of foreign affairs that they will allow you to do this? You normally have to stay out for several months between visits - it is an EU rule.

It is very important that you get this right, because if they were to refuse entry, then it is for the whole of the EU/Switzerland not just Ireland. The black list is shared by all countries and if you end up there, you'll have almost not chance of getting an EU work permit in the future.

Jim.

Jim2007

Robdude wrote: »

I'm looking for full-time work (and a green card) in Ireland.

When it come to work permits all EU countries plus Switzerland (CH) are bound by the same set of rules. Namely that there is no EU/CH citizen available to up the position and that the salary is in line with market conditions. Outside of that countries are free to issue non working permits to people and a small limited number of permits to none EU/CH nationals. Most governments keep a large number of these permits for their own use, for example in the case of Ireland they are used to cover doctors and nurses. Therefore very few of these permits are available for the general public, so unless you qualify via the normal route there is not much change of achieving your goal.

I would think that you best bet would be to try and register as a student with some college in Ireland and you would then qualify for a student visa that would allow you to work a certain number of hours each week.

Jim.

Webmonkey

If you register here for a course (which will probably be cheaper than in the US anyways), you'll have to register for a full time one in order to stay in Ireland.

Unfortunately, this will mean you cannot work full time. You will only be able to do 20 hours a week during college and then the normal ~40 hours per week during the summer term. But then masters may go on the whole year.

I'm not sure if any company would be able to hire you for 20 hours a week but then you never know as demand is high for programmers here and being a student you might be able to do 20 hours contract work a week. Contract work will be paid higher so that might suit you. I'm not entirely sure what the rules are for contract work for international students.

yop

I PM'd you there the other day OP, did you get access to it.

We are looking a couple of bits of work done and may have a few hours per week after that if things work out, we are a start-up and wouldn't have enough work for a full-time.

Is that legit with regards permits?

srsly78

Regulations say it has to be a contract of 2+ years duration to be eligible for permit.

yop

srsly78 wrote: »

Regulations say it has to be a contract of 2+ years duration to be eligible for permit.

Ah ok, thanks for that. Thats a pity.

Mariam Bilal

Hi, I'm living in Dublin for about two months. I don't have a work permit right now. I want to know if I can do some volunteer work here without a permit?

jgh_

srsly78 wrote: »

Rob, the part you are missing is that companies have to prove they cannot find a candidate from within the EU to fill the position before they can bring in a foreigner. In reality this means you have no chance at all, there are lots of unemployed Irish/EU software engineers that you are competing against. The company would have to make a very strong case that they can ONLY find a foreigner suitable for the position.

This is why in the UK they insist you bring your passport to interview (so they have proof they are interviewing EU candidates). Some places in Ireland have also started doing this.

I realize this thread is quite old, but it just got bumped and I want to clarify that for the Green Card there does not appear to be any labor market needs test (i.e. if you are a programmer and are offered more than €30k you qualify for a green card)
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/migrant_workers/employment_permits/green_card_permits.html

If anyone can direct me to contradictory information I would appreciate it.