Heaven on earth, "Tara" - in Ireland

chc007

Dear all,

please read the below research done by one of my close friend. His name is at very end of the article. So far I didn't know this big and holy place even though I have been living in Ireland since long. You may find some sentence framing / grammatical error and sorry for this inconvenience.

* * * * *

Heaven on earth, "Tara" - in Ireland

Dedicated to Celtic Elders
[There is a great divine force that directs me to work and write. The divine force is the blessings of the Celtic Elders. I touch their feet and take their blessings before I begin.]

Motto:

a) Spread the feeling of brotherhood amongst the Celts, Pagans and the Indians

b) Celts and Pagans to feel India, their home

c) Indians to respect the Celtic and Pagan elders, as Saints and organize their visits to India

d) Save the ancient Celtic and Pagan literature and sites]

This is a save “Tara, Ireland”, campaign by Celts, Pagans & Hindus.


I had the blessings of many Druid elders who have been guiding and motivating me. I decided to take a pilgrimage to the places that I understood, were of great importance to the Celts and Pagans, and me too. First time I met Druids when I visited few places in Brittney. The visit to Brittney transformed my life and I found great changes in my life.


Along with my wife I decided to visit other places of Celtic interest and took a circuitous rout to see places. I am aware of the fact that pilgrimage sites in India are of great importance for all Hindus. Our ancestors told us that one should visit these places. Earlier times the village folks in group would set out for pilgrimage to most of these places. There was a firm belief that those who visit the four of these most important pilgrimage places would make it to heaven. These are the “Char Dhams of Hindus”, the four abodes / seats. Char means four and Dham means the sacred places of Dharma. Even today people visit these four sacred places of worships. These places are Badrinath, Dwarka, Jagannath Puri and Rameshwaram. They are in four different directions of India. There were no faster means to travel and therefore they would go on foot or on horseback or may be on bullock carts or chariots and also faced many hardships, passed through deep forests, encountered looters, dacoits and also had to go through many Kingdoms. It was uncertain to return back home safe and sound. Many would die during the pilgrimage due to ill health. It was an important part of once life and therefore there were feasts before they departed and they would be escorted to far distances by close family members and so were celebrations on their safe return. The traditions still continues in India although the journey is faster and safer. Even today, old aged people are eager to be taken on pilgrimages by their sons. This concept of visiting Char Dham gave every Hindu the feeling of oneness in-spite of many languages, beliefs and Kingdoms. There were many Kingdoms but; it was the duty of every King to protect the people who were on a pilgrimage irrespective of their domicile as per Hindu Dharma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_Dham


My family members were surprised when I decided to pilgrimage the Celtic sites. They never ever heard of worship places in Europe. The places that I had in mind were Glastonbury, Stonehenge, Iona, Anglesey and others were Tara, New grange and also to Isles of Man. We were lucky enough to cover all except Isles of Man. We were lucky to get the blessings of Druid / Celt / Pagan Elders where ever we went. They all made us feel at home. This article is on Tara in County Meath, Ireland the sacred place for all.

The Druid Elders of Ireland explained me the importance of “Sacred Tara”, they are nice people. We got a calendar from them that would determine the festival time, showing the various positions of the Sun God with stars & their alignments and the sacred places of worships in Ireland. This was amazing and interesting.

“Tara” is a beautiful place on a mound with lush green grass covering huge open land. It was the seat of sacred thrown and the ruler of Tara was the ruler of Ireland. This belief continued for many centuries. The stone at top of Tara mound appears as ”Shiva Ling” to Hindus. There had been no explanation to the beautiful stone placed at top of the mould but it symbolizes Tara. There used to be ceremonies and rituals for the Druids and the Kings. There is a tree of fairies where people tie ribbons and cloths for their wishes. There used to be King’s palace close by surrounded by sacred wells where people used to throw coins for their wishes.


The Druid Elders mentioned that though “Tara” was the sacred seat for the Kings of Ireland but virtually it was the sacred place of living for the Druids only. It was a place where the Druids not only lived but had their own authority and the King had no say in what so ever manner in the administration of the town. No rule of the land applied to Druids. Druids made their own rules and were applicable among them only. They still celebrate many rituals at “Tara” even today.

“Tara”
The Heaven on Earth
Abode of Lord Lu & Indra
A sacred “Dham” for Hindus

The most important amongst the legendary rulers of “Tara” was the High King “Lu” who has many mythological tales.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugh

In Sanskrit “Lu” means God Indra, the lord of pantheons? The word “Lu” one can find in Sanskrit dictionary as Lord Indra. He was the most worshiped God during Vedic times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra





Why “Lu” is also called Lugh?

The “Oak” tree is a sacred tree of the Druids and “Oak” means the “Father of the trees”. In Sanskrit Oak is pronounced as “Agh”. There is no difference in pronunciation but mainly because of the Roman – English letters. “Agh” in Sanskrit means the “Original Tree”. Therefore “Oak” and “Agh” means the same. In Christianity the same word has been written little differently as “Ankh”, though it has almost similar meaning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh
http://www.crystalinks.com/ankh.html


There are names of different species of the trees in Sanskrit that have been derived from “Agh”. The tree “Oak” / “Agh” / “Ankh” symbolizes creation. The God “Lu” is also the God of the tree “Oak” / “Agh”. Therefore “Lu” + “Agh” means the God “Lugh”. In Sanskrit also Lugh means God. Therefore Lugh is also a Sanskrit / Hindi word and it means God. . Therefore “Lu” and Indra are same.


How Lugh is God for Hindus ?

There are many examples to say that Lugh means God for Hindus. The following are few examples:

a. There are many Hindu Gods and Goddess whose name begins with Lugh. Like for Celts the festival of Lugnasa / Lugasad is for the God Lugh. Similarly Hindu god with Lugh is Indra and called Leekarshabh or (Leek or Lek or lugh + Arshab). Indra, the Indian Zeus, is a grand mythical figure. According to the Vedas (Indian Scripture), Indra is the Ruler of the Hindu Pantheon. He is also known as Sakra ("Powerful"), Vajri ("the Thunderer"), Purandara ("Destroyer of Cities"), Meghavahana ("Rider of the Clouds"), and Swargapati ("the Lord of Heaven"). Similarly Lagnadipati (Lug + An + Adi + Pati) means Ascendant Lord. There are many more such names which will be covered in subsequent articles.


b. On my visit to Ireland I was fortunate enough to attend the Lughnasadh ceremony with the Druid Elders. During the ceremony the Druid Elder chanted mantras and invited the Gods, Goddesses and the ancestors to bless. It appeared to me as if I was attending a Hindu ritual ceremony. I felt comfortable and was very happy. It was a sacred ceremony. I and my wife were fortunate enough to be included for the ceremony. Similar ceremonies are performed by Hindus. The name of the marriage time is called Lagan. We may write it as Lug (An). Lag (An) is the most auspicious time for the Hindu marriage and it is carefully chosen by the astrologer (Pandits /Shamans / Brahmans ), and it is the most ideal time when maximum Gods and Goddesses are called and will be present to bless the couple during the marriage ceremony. The couple conducts seven circuits of the Holy Fire (Agni), which is considered a witness to the vows they make to each other. Agni, god of fire acts as the divine model for the priest. Agni (Fire God) is the messenger who carries the message from humans to the gods, bringing the gods to marriage place, and intercedes between gods and humans. This is exactly similar to the Lughnasadh ceremony in terms of inviting the Gods and Goddesses to the
place of worship or ceremony.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asian_wedding http://astrobix.com/jyotisha/?tag=/shaadi-lagan-muhurta

What are the similarities between “Lu” and “Indra”?

a. “Lu” – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugh
Name : Lú is Lugh

b. “Lu” as God: Lú is an Irish deity represented in mythological texts as a hero and High King of the distant past. He is a reflex of the pan-Celtic god Lugus, and his Welsh counterpart is Lleu Llaw Gyffes, "The Bright One with the Strong Hand". Lughnasadh itself is a celebration of Lugh's triumph over the spirits of the Other World who had tried to keep the harvest for themselves.

c. God of thunder and rain and a great warrior : Lugh's name was formerly interpreted as "flashing light", a sun god and a storm god:

d. Skilled in many arts: Lu had mastery of all arts made him described as the "inventor of all the arts".

e. Lu’s weapons and armory: He is known as Lamhfhada meaning "long arm" , for his skill with a spear or sling. He had a magic spear (named Areadbhar)

f. Lord of Rainbow: Lugh’s sling rod was the rainbow and the Milky Way which was called "Lugh's Chain".

g. Trickster: He appears in folklore as a trickster.


b. “Indra” – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra

a. Name : “lugh” is “Lu” and “Lu” means “Indra” in Sanskrit

b. Indra as God : Indra is the King of the demi-gods In the Rig Veda, Indra is the king of the gods and ruler of the heavens. He leads the Deva (the gods who form and maintain Heaven) and the elements, such as Agni (Fire), Varuna (Water) and Surya (Sun), and constantly wages war against the opponents of the gods, the demon-like Asuras.

c. God of thunder and rain and a great warrior: Indra is the god of thunder and rain and a great warrior, a symbol of courage and strength. As the god of war, he is also regarded as one of the Guardians of the directions, representing the East.

d. Skilled in many arts: Indra is celebrated as a demiurge that pushes up the sky, releases dawn. He under whose supreme control are horses, all chariots, the villages, and cattle;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge

e. Indra’s weapons and armory : Indra's weapon, which he used to kill Vritra, is the Vajra, though he also uses a bow, a net, and a hook. In the post-Vedic period, he rides a large, four-tusked white elephant called Airavata. He rides a chariot pulled by four horses capable of traversing through the air. When portrayed having four arms, he has lances in two of his hands which resemble elephant goads. When he is shown to have two, he holds the Vajra and a bow. He lives in Svarg (Heaven). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajra

f. Lord of Rainbow: In Hindu mythology, the rainbow is called "Indradhanush”, meaning the bow of Indra, the God of lightning, thunder and rain.

g. Trickster: Indra also appears as a trickster in many of mythological folklores.


Conclusion: -

We find all the similarities between God “Lu”, “Lugh” and “Indra”. The God “Indra” lives in heaven and so does the God “Lugh” and “Lu”. The place of the High King “Lu” is “Tara” and therefore “Tara” is heaven and it is heaven on Earth and it is also the most sacred city of the Druids.

“Let us save Tara”
“The Heaven on Earth”

This article is dedicated to all those who are determined to save “Tara”, “The Heaven on Earth”


“Spirituality is beyond religion, Help us save Tara”

Always invite a Celtic Elder for a feast, to know more on Tara and take their blessings as well.


* * * END * * *

Thank you for your time.

Please let me know your thoughts.

By: Surendra N. Mathur

padma

No

you may find this thread on the very topic you are talking about interesting

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056017601

chc007

Dear Padma, many thanks for this. Please let me know if you find more stuff.

TheBardWest

Hello Surendra (and friend)! Blessings from your friend West!

CuAnnan

Not at all

chc007 wrote: »

Dedicated to Celtic Elders

There is not, nor has there ever been, a Celtic people (except perhaps the Keltoi themselves).
When discussing things that are based in anthropology, it is of the utmost importance to get your terms right, or you run the risk of conflating seperate ethnicities.
The "Celtic" languages are a group of roughly similar proto-Indoeuropean languages that share about as much with each other as they do with the other proto-Indoeuropean languages. The conflation of the proto-Indoeuropean cultures into one umbrella heading was the result of sloppy anthropology committed by people who were so anthropocentric as to grant credence to accusations of racism.

chc007 wrote: »

The divine force is the blessings of the Celtic Elders.

That's worrying, given the above. If these Elders exist, why do they not correct your friend on the misuse of a word that they would likely have found offensive?

chc007 wrote: »

Spread the feeling of brotherhood amongst the Celts, Pagans and the Indians

This is inherently incompatible with the noted xenocentric attitudes of most of the european cultures that your friend is purporting to believe.

chc007 wrote: »

Celts and Pagans to feel India, their home

Why?

chc007 wrote: »

The Druid Elders of Ireland explained me the importance of “Sacred Tara”, they are nice people.

There are no druids left in Ireland. There have not been for centuries.
Any organisation claiming the title is doing so under false pretenses.
Any person claiming that they are elders among the druids of Ireland are presuming to a title that they have no right to. The line of druids was broken, quite clearly and quite distinctly.
However valid such faiths may be, as faiths go, is utterly irrelevant to their presumption of a title they have no right to.

chc007 wrote: »

There had been no explanation to the beautiful stone placed at top of the mould but it symbolizes Tara.

I heard it was placed there as a symbol of holy masculinity and a symbol of kingship.

chc007 wrote: »

There is a tree of fairies where people tie ribbons and cloths for their wishes.

This is a vile and distasteful practice. It damages the trees by cutting off the bark as they grow and poisons them as the artificial dies make their way into the living tree.

chc007 wrote: »

The Druid Elders mentioned that though “Tara” was the sacred seat for the Kings of Ireland but virtually it was the sacred place of living for the Druids only.

That is explicitly contradicted in our epics.

chc007 wrote: »

It was a place where the Druids not only lived but had their own authority and the King had no say in what so ever manner in the administration of the town.

Again, that is explicitly contradicted in our epics.

chc007 wrote: »

No rule of the land applied to Druids.

Again, that is explicitly contradicted in our epics.

chc007 wrote: »

Druids made their own rules and were applicable among them only.

Again, that is explicitly contradicted in our epics.

chc007 wrote: »

They still celebrate many rituals at “Tara” even today.

They do not. People claiming to be druids do so.

chc007 wrote: »

The most important amongst the legendary rulers of “Tara” was the High King “Lu”

No it was not. It was High King Lugh.
Those two letters are really really important.
Now, when one conflates two cultures and says "look, see these similarities" it is of utmost importance that one looks beyond them. Lugh was the grandson of a Fomor. He became a Tuatha dé through bragartry and being pretty much good at everything.

chc007 wrote: »

In Christianity the same word has been written little differently as “Ankh”, though it has almost similar meaning.

No.
Ankh comes form the Egyptian word pronounced ʽnḫ and meaning "life". Not oak.

chc007 wrote: »

Therefore “Lu” + “Agh” means the God “Lugh”.

You are abusing the word "therefore".
It is not "therefore" that that Lu + Agh means Lugh. You have not provided any evidence tying Lugh and Oak together. It's not in his origin story.

chc007 wrote: »

Therefore “Lu” and Indra are same.

This kind of homogenisation is intellectually dishonest.
I have just checked up Indra's creation story, his general behaviours and his attitudes to things.
He bears no resemblance to Lugh, save if you squint really hard.

chc007 wrote: »

During the ceremony the Druid Elder chanted mantras and invited the Gods, Goddesses and the ancestors to bless. It appeared to me as if I was attending a Hindu ritual ceremony.

That's because the Druids were wiped out.
In order to attempt to create a new druid organisation, the people involved pillaged from other religions shamelessly.

chc007 wrote: »

This is exactly similar to the Lughnasadh ceremony in terms of inviting the Gods and Goddesses to the
place of worship or ceremony.

It is not exactly the same.
They are similar.
Nobody's arguing that.

chc007 wrote: »

We find all the similarities between God “Lu”, “Lugh” and “Indra”.

How many of them are cited?

Don't get me wrong. I accept and acknowledge that our people are indo-european. I accept that our language shares an ancestor with Sanskrit (I say that and I mean just that, not that Irish is a descendant language of Sanskrit, but that they are both descendants of an older language).

If we are going to say that our Gods are real and your Gods are real, then let us not conflate them because we gave them similar names, and ignore the historicity of the name giving and rewrite history in order to do so.

Lug was the old Irish, not Lu.
Now, I accept that Lu, in modern Irish, is pretty much exactly how लू is pronounced. But that is not to say that that is how Lug would have been pronounced. I know people who pronounce Lug as it would be pronounced closer as to how it is pronounced in English than लू, and they claim that is the correct pronunciation.

I do not feel it is appropriate, for example, to tell Indians that they have everything in their sagas wrong, and that the God of Israel is the only true God and that all of the things they think they know about their God is actually just the Hebrew being polluted by mistranslations.

Urizen

Little bit

CuAnnan, simply clicking a button to approve that post wasn't enough. Well done.

Enkidu

CuAnnan wrote: »

There is not, nor has there ever been, a Celtic people (except perhaps the Keltoi themselves).

There was the Halstatt culture surely and the communities in Gaul and Celtiberia who identified themselves as Celts.

The "Celtic" languages are a group of roughly similar proto-Indoeuropean languages that share about as much with each other as they do with the other proto-Indoeuropean languages.

The Celtic languages have far more in common with each other than the other Indo-European languages. The same loss of consonants, the same case structure and inherited verb system, due to the fact that they all evolved from Proto-Celtic.

CuAnnan

Not at all

Urizen wrote: »

CuAnnan, simply clicking a button to approve that post wasn't enough. Well done.

Homogenisation of disparate cultures into a single blend is just offensive.

CuAnnan

Not at all

Enkidu wrote: »

There was the Halstatt culture surely and the communities in Gaul and Celtiberia who identified themselves as Celts.

Got a citation for that?

Enkidu wrote: »

The Celtic languages have far more in common with each other than the other Indo-European languages.

Yup, I'm not contesting that.

Enkidu

CuAnnan wrote: »

Got a citation for that?

For which part, that Keltoi derives from a native Proto-Celtic etonym, meaning it was used by the Halstatt culture, or that it was used by Celtiberians and Gauls?

CuAnnan wrote: »

Yup, I'm not contesting that.

You said :
"The "Celtic" languages are a group of roughly similar proto-Indoeuropean languages that share about as much with each other as they do with the other proto-Indoeuropean languages."
This implies they are no more similar to each other than to other Indo-European languages. This is false, as they have far, far more in common with each other than with other Indo-European languages.

CuAnnan

Not at all

Enkidu wrote: »

For which part, that Keltoi derives from a native Proto-Celtic etonym, meaning it was used by the Halstatt culture, or that it was used by Celtiberians and Gauls?

That it was used by the Gauls.

Enkidu wrote: »

This implies they are no more similar to each other than to other Indo-European languages. This is false, as they have far, far more in common with each other than with other Indo-European languages.

You know, you're 100% correct. I don't know what I was trying to get at with that sentence. It may have ran away with me mid edit.

TheBardWest

A very interesting turn on this thread. CuAnnan - do you have citations for all of your claims? And what credentials can you provide for those of us who aren't as 'scholarly'? I was under the impression that while there were no 'Celtic people', the term is so commonly used that is has become acceptable even within academic circles. You know, the same way we say "American Indians" for example, although that term is perhaps even more incorrect, everyone pretty much understands and accepts its use in the common vernacular.

I've met Surendra, and he is dedicated to this study of finding connections between his ancestors and ours. He makes his translations directly from the Sanskrit and them draws conclusions based on available research of 'Celtic' cultures. I'm wondering if your research is based on Old Irish? Sanskrit? Something else?

While I'm not trying to start a flame war here, your post comes across as if you're an academic with an axe to grind against anyone who is interested in a 'practical application' and study of Druidry/Druidism, Celtic spirituality, and its possible connections to other cultures. An elitist and purist approach such as this is as effective as any fundamentalist approach - which is to say "my way or the highway" isn't a terribly effective way of convincing people of anything. It is highly effective at polarizing people and rooting them more firmly in their position, though.

I've met many Druids, many of whom are incredibly respected scholars who DO call themselves Druids. None of them consider the tradition 'unbroken', nor do any of them consider the Druid path as something that is 100% based on historical research. Rather, they (we) consider it a living tradition that is influenced by what we do know from anthropological studies, historical studies, texts, and oral traditions - but that we also must infuse it with content and context that is relevant to our own life and times.

I believe you have a lot of potential information to offer this forum, but if you present it in a way that makes everyone else 'wrong', and sets you up as the sole expert, you're destined to convince only those who already agree with your position. So in the interest of keeping the dialog open, how can you share your knowledge with us in a way that might engage us, invite us, and encourage us to look past what might be (incorrect) common knowledge, without making all of us wrong?

TheBardWest

CuAnnan wrote: »

I do not feel it is appropriate, for example, to tell Indians that they have everything in their sagas wrong, and that the God of Israel is the only true God and that all of the things they think they know about their God is actually just the Hebrew being polluted by mistranslations.

Except that you kind of just did say that, but in a backhanded way. And what a whopper this one is! I'd say if you don't provide some pretty significant credentials and citations proving to us that you are an expert on world religions, with an emphasis in ancient Hebrew and Sanskrit texts, this statement would strongly color any opinion regarding your previous statements...

CuAnnan

Not at all

TheBardWest wrote: »

Except that you kind of just did say that, but in a backhanded way. And what a whopper this one is! I'd say if you don't provide some pretty significant credentials and citations proving to us that you are an expert on world religions, with an emphasis in ancient Hebrew and Sanskrit texts, this statement would strongly color any opinion regarding your previous statements...

No, I most certainly did not.
I said "it would be really really offensive if I said that" by way of saying "what you have just done here is really really offensive" only expressing it in a cultural context the OP would understand.
I do my best to avoid conflating cultures because of superficial similarities between them.

CuAnnan

Not at all

TheBardWest wrote: »

A very interesting turn on this thread. CuAnnan - do you have citations for all of your claims?

For some of them, yes.
Others are picked up from academia at large.

TheBardWest wrote: »

the term is so commonly used that is has become acceptable even within academic circles.

What academic circles?

TheBardWest wrote: »

You know, the same way we say "American Indians" for example

I do not.

TheBardWest wrote: »

although that term is perhaps even more incorrect, everyone pretty much understands and accepts its use in the common vernacular.

So what?

TheBardWest wrote: »

I'm wondering if your research is based on Old Irish?

What research?

TheBardWest wrote: »

While I'm not trying to start a flame war

Almost every sincere statement starting with "I'm not X but" is an instance of X.

TheBardWest wrote: »

your post comes across as if you're an academic

Only in the loosest sense of the word.
I'm a web application developer.

TheBardWest wrote: »

with an axe to grind against anyone who is interested in a 'practical application' and study of Druidry/Druidism

What practical applications?

TheBardWest wrote: »

Celtic spirituality, and its possible connections to other cultures.

I whole heartedly acknowledge our connections to other cultures.
The original post was not "look, our cultures are connected", it was "look, your culture is a dilution of ours". It was anthropocentric to the point of racism.

TheBardWest wrote: »

An elitist and purist approach such as this is as effective as any fundamentalist approach

What happened to not trying to start a flame war?
Although, I suppose I would need to be personally insulting you for this to be a flame war and not just you taking potshots at me.

TheBardWest wrote: »

I've met many Druids

Can I borrow your time machine?

TheBardWest wrote: »

many of whom are incredibly respected scholars who DO call themselves Druids.

Then they are presuming to a title they are not entitled. Note, I use the word entitled.

TheBardWest wrote: »

None of them consider the tradition 'unbroken', nor do any of them consider the Druid path as something that is 100% based on historical research.

How high a percentage is it?

TheBardWest wrote: »

Rather, they (we) consider it a living tradition that is influenced by what we do know from anthropological studies, historical studies, texts, and oral traditions - but that we also must infuse it with content and context that is relevant to our own life and times.

And when the glaring inconsistencies between what they (you) practice and the anthropologically supportable sources are pointed out, they (you) just shrug it off?

TheBardWest wrote: »

but if you present it in a way that makes everyone else 'wrong'

I'm glad you used the word wrong.
Because I was trying to point out the moral wrongness of cultural homogenisation especially when one is trying to say "look, you're all just following our gods, but doing it wrong".

TheBardWest wrote: »

how can you share your knowledge with us in a way that might engage us

I do not believe, at present, that I can.

TheBardWest wrote: »

invite us, and encourage us to look past what might be (incorrect) common knowledge, without making all of us wrong?

Actually, on this front, I cannot.
Intellectual integrity is at the centre of my personal path.
You have displayed, in this thread, such a wanton disregard for it that I have no interest in sharing with you.
However, until such a time as a mod says "you have crossed a line", I will continue to post contrarily so as to provide a "look, not all pagans believe in homogonising all world cultures, ala Margaret Murray and Edain McCoy, some of us believe in ethnic individuality without being racist, some of us believe that we should be entitled to our ideosyncratic cultures".
I am in no way saying that the Pre Irish culture is better than any other, I am however saying that it is entitled to be distinct and that anyone saying "look, you're really just Jews/Hindus/Pastafarians, but doing it wrong" needs to take that into account.

TheBardWest

CuAnnan wrote: »

I whole heartedly acknowledge our connections to other cultures.
The original post was not "look, our cultures are connected", it was "look, your culture is a dilution of ours". It was anthropocentric to the point of racism.

Sorry, we must be reading totally different posts, because I didn't see the above expressed in any capacity, nor have I ever gotten that intention from meeting the author in person. Happy to end my discussion with you here, as you seem to have drawn an extremely small circle within which you're willing to listen. Intellectual integrity is a high ideal to strive for, though I'm sorry to see that it comes at the expense an ability to engage people without being an elitist.

Tabnabs

Little bit

Come on TBW, I know you can do better than that.

To quote from the OP for an example

There are names of different species of the trees in Sanskrit that have been derived from “Agh”. The tree “Oak” / “Agh” / “Ankh” symbolizes creation. The God “Lu” is also the God of the tree “Oak” / “Agh”. Therefore “Lu” + “Agh” means the God “Lugh”. In Sanskrit also Lugh means God. Therefore Lugh is also a Sanskrit / Hindi word and it means God. . Therefore “Lu” and Indra are same.

It's difficult (IMO) to read the OP without it coming across as disrespectful (if somehow trying to be well meaning). You have to remember that this is also a religious forum, not an academic diatribe. So coming out with statements like this will inevitably be received in a poor light by many.

CuAnnan

Not at all

TheBardWest wrote: »

Sorry, we must be reading totally different posts, because I didn't see the above expressed in any capacity

Are you pointedly ignoring my post and only reading the whole calling out Bréagdraoi thing? Because that's what it looks like from my end.

TheBardWest wrote: »

Happy to end my discussion with you here

Go well. Find whatsoever fulfilment you can in your path.

TheBardWest wrote: »

you seem to have drawn an extremely small circle within which you're willing to listen.

Yes. Honest people.
We are rare, alas.

TheBardWest wrote: »

Intellectual integrity is a high ideal to strive for

Yes. It is.

TheBardWest wrote: »

though I'm sorry to see that it comes at the expense an ability to engage people without being an elitist.

It doesn't on my end.

CuAnnan

Not at all

Tabnabs wrote: »

It's difficult (IMO) to read the OP without it coming across as disrespectful (if somehow trying to be well meaning). You have to remember that this is also a religious forum, not an academic diatribe. So coming out with statements like this will inevitably be received in a poor light by many.

If this were an academic forum, it would have been just as poorly received for its lack of supporting evidence.
Conflating linguistic similarity with cultural identity on the grounds of linguistic similarity is incredibly intellectually dishonest.

TheBardWest

Tabnabs wrote: »

It's difficult (IMO) to read the OP without it coming across as disrespectful (if somehow trying to be well meaning). You have to remember that this is also a religious forum, not an academic diatribe. So coming out with statements like this will inevitably be received in a poor light by many.

Perhaps I misunderstood this forum from the outset. I don't know many self-professed pagans who consider it a religion. There are no set doctrines proscribed, though there are many paths. Some paths are sourced more deeply in academic texts and anthropological research than others. I know some Reconstructionists who go so far as to translate their own texts from Old Irish, Welsh, etc. Others are more 'living paths', meaning the people may look to academic research and the like, and then try to find ways to connect what we do know about our ancestors from a historical perspective, and draw connections with the way we can live and learn from the world of today.

Nor did I think this was an academic forum, or that we needed to meet a certain standard of academic achievement in order to be heard, to have our expressions read for what they are, and to ask questions as they arise.

CuAnnan's reply to the original thread - in my opinion - seems to ignore the intent of the author, it ignores that the author uses English as a second language, and generally condescends to anyone who follows a 'Druid' path because he somehow believes to be a keyholder to what name someone is entitled to use. By that same standard, Christians - Followers of Christ - cannot be entitled to such a name either, for Christ has long been dead, and it is no longer possible to follow him. Even those who would 'follow the teachings of Christ' cannot use that name, because there is no true "unbroken" line of academic research that connects us to him. Instead, what we have are 2 millennia of translated texts, interpretations, and changes made by various churches.

I'm sorry, but I don't come to this forum to be condescended to, to be made wrong for my beliefs, to be made to feel stupid because I don't meet up to someone else's academic standards. I greatly admire people who are able to offer academic research without trying to make those 'not in the know' feel somehow 'less' for it. I've had the great fortune of meeting with many such people, some of whom are respected scholars who do use the term "Druid" to describe themselves. I wonder if CuAnnan has ever engaged in a dialog (i.e. not an internet post, one where he actually has to speak to a human face to face) with someone like John Michael Greer, Philip Carr-Gomm, Con Connor, Ronald Hutton, or John Matthews? I would be curious to see how such a dialogue played out...

Meanwhile, I'm taking a break from this forum. As I said, I come here to share ideas, not to be made wrong for who I am and the path I choose to follow. If I want an academic lecture or a textbook I'm perfectly capable of finding that elsewhere.

Off to my time machine, where I will hopefully spend less time insulting people on the internet and more time actually talking to living, breathing human beings. The world needs more people living in it, not more internet intellects.

Morag

Little bit

I think the OP is trying to draw links and force a fit were there is not one and I think the discussion as been pretty civil and he postulated the possibility and hasn't managed to prove it and as he has mentioned these 'link' and has not cited references then the onus is on him.

I have heard other's trying to badly draw correlation between Tara the place here in Ireland and Green Tara before so many times I can't even muster the ire or energy to roll my eyes. Trying to preform an act of cultural/religious mash up is disrespectful to both culture/religions, and if I think something is daft I will say so.

I can understand the stance taken in the op as a thought experiment but to try and actually say there is a connection is boggling.


There are pagan paths which are religions, which are orthodoxic and orthopraxic and some of them are purely personal gnosis and some are mystery traditions.

There are some which are completely personally subjective and one person's journey.

And really re your swipe at the posters here, honestly I expected better from you.

CuAnnan

Not at all

TheBardWest wrote: »

CuAnnan's reply to the original thread - in my opinion - seems to ignore the intent of the author, it ignores that the author uses English as a second language

No, I just don't think any of that's relevant.
The author made claims. Objective definitive claims.
They claimed that Lugh and Indra are one and the same, they used spurious reasoning and faulty linguistics to defend the claim.

TheBardWest wrote: »

and generally condescends to anyone who follows a 'Druid' path

Actually, I have no problem with the path, the followers or the beliefs except the title.
I was clear on that. I explained why. You chose to take it out of context and I'm not going to apologise for that.

TheBardWest wrote: »

because he somehow believes to be a keyholder to what name someone is entitled to use.

Actually, the word "entitled" is key there. An entitlement is bestowed. Who does the bestowing?

TheBardWest wrote: »

By that same standard, Christians - Followers of Christ - cannot be entitled to such a name either, for Christ has long been dead, and it is no longer possible to follow him.

That's a false comparison. Show me a period of several centuries where there were no Christians, then I'll deal with the second instance of false comparison (wherein Christianity is a religion and the Druids were a {to use the term loosely} caste-like position within a group of societies).

TheBardWest wrote: »

Even those who would 'follow the teachings of Christ' cannot use that name, because there is no true "unbroken" line of academic research that connects us to him.

Except, however, all that Christ requested was that you abide one law to be considered one of his followers.
So, you know, there is that.

TheBardWest wrote: »

Instead, what we have are 2 millennia of translated texts, interpretations, and changes made by various churches

That is bigotry, plain and simple.
The fact of the matter is that the various translations of the bible can and have been held up against the oldest copies of the bible and do stand up to translation.

TheBardWest wrote: »

Ito be made to feel stupid because I don't meet up to someone else's academic standards.

I can't make you feel anything. If you feel stupid because you cannot match me in academic sparring, then you certainly have no right to the title Druid. And if you want a citation for that, read your classics again. There are numerous instances of Tuaraide being outright hostile towards each other.
As it stands, you started the hostility. You personally insulted. And all because I said "using the traditions of these 'so called' druids to support an argument is inherently fallacious"?

TheBardWest wrote: »

I wonder if CuAnnan has ever engaged in a dialog (i.e. not an internet post, one where he actually has to speak to a human face to face) with someone like John Michael Greer, Philip Carr-Gomm, Con Connor, Ronald Hutton, or John Matthews? I would be curious to see how such a dialogue played out...

Ronald Hutton, and quite well. We agreed on pretty much everything. Though he corrected me on my spelling.

TheBardWest wrote: »

Off to my time machine, where I will hopefully spend less time insulting people on the internet and more time actually talking to living, breathing human beings. The world needs more people living in it, not more internet intellects.

See, there we go again with the personal insults.
I don't agree with you (and have provided solid reasoned arguments as to why) so I'm not a real person.
Dehumanise me if it makes you feel better.
But don't think it isn't patently clear what you're doing.

TheBardWest

Actually, I have no problem with the path, the followers or the beliefs except the title.

How did Ronald respond when you told him he wasn't entitled to use the term?

Actually, the word "entitled" is key there. An entitlement is bestowed. Who does the bestowing?

You tell me. I haven't come across any texts that say that such a law exists. Perhaps at one time such a law did exist (i.e. after such and such a time of studying, one might become a Vate or Druid), but no such law exists today, nor anyone to do the bestowing. If an organization uses such titles, who (aside from yourself) gives them the "right" to do so or not?

As it stands, you started the hostility. You personally insulted. And all because I said "using the traditions of these 'so called' druids to support an argument is inherently fallacious"?

"Can I borrow your time machine?"

I'd call that an insult - and a personal one. I'm not sure I would consider my initial requests of you (for credentials and citations to back up YOUR claims, which you frequently have demanded of the OP yet haven't provided) insulting, but please let me know which lines you found such and I'll re-examine my approach.

I can't make you feel anything. If you feel stupid because you cannot match me in academic sparring, then you certainly have no right to the title Druid. And if you want a citation for that, read your classics again.

Nowhere in the thread have I called myself a Druid. I have said that I follow a Druid path and admit that I am new to the path (4 years of study). But as long as we're talking semantics, you can't say whether or not I have no right to the title on the basis of your previous statement that nobody (living) can bestow such a title. If nobody living can bestow the title, then certainly nobody living can preclude me from such a title, as there is no working definition to create a law that may create an allowance for someone to bestow such a title.

Ronald Hutton, and quite well. We agreed on pretty much everything. Though he corrected me on my spelling.

When I walked up to Glasonbury Tor with Ronald this year I found him to be a most inviting and friendly man. He didn't condescend, but instead inquired about our own story. He engaged me in a way that encouraged me to want to study more of his work. I cannot say the same for the way you have presented yourself here (even prior to my engagement in the thread). For what its worth, your people skills do not come through your internet engagements. I'd be happy to meet with you in person to speak more if you're ever down Wicklow way. Perhaps we'd find that we'd be fast friends after all...

See, there we go again with the personal insults.

Again, the "time machine" quote was yours.

CuAnnan

Not at all

TheBardWest wrote: »

How did Ronald respond when you told him he wasn't entitled to use the term?

I wasn't aware, up until this moment, that he used it. However, he certainly agrees that there is no connection between the modern "druids" and the actual societal position.

TheBardWest wrote: »

You tell me. I haven't come across any texts that say that such a law exists.

Try looking at the UN Charter for the rights of Indigenous people.

TheBardWest wrote: »

Perhaps at one time such a law did exist

The people and our cultures bestowed it upon them.
The usurpation of that title is, in effect, cultural and historical revisionism and I find it intellectually repugnant.

TheBardWest wrote: »

nor anyone to do the bestowing.

Nor do you have to pass the rather stringent entrance requirements.
Nor do you supply the services that the actual druids provided.
Nor do you have the skills the actual druids had.
Nor do you hold the knowledge the druids held.
What is it that you do have of the druids? Serious, up front, sincere, in earnest question. What makes you a druid as opposed to a hippy or a neopagan with Gaelic, Brythonic and/or Central European tint to your religion?

TheBardWest wrote: »

If an organization uses such titles, who (aside from yourself) gives them the "right" to do so or not?

They do not have the right. They never had the right. They pretend the title. Thus is the crux of my position.

TheBardWest wrote: »

I'd call that an insult

How? It implies that, in order to talk to druids, you need to travel back in time.
It was snarky, yes. Ascorbic, yes. But not an insult.

TheBardWest wrote: »

I'm not sure I would consider my initial requests of you insulting, but please let me know which lines you found such and I'll re-examine my approach.

TheBardWest wrote: »

your post comes across as if you're an academic with an axe to grind

TheBardWest wrote: »

An elitist and purist approach such as this

TheBardWest wrote: »

Except that you kind of just did say that, but in a backhanded way

TheBardWest wrote: »

Nowhere in the thread have I called myself a Druid. I have said that I follow a Druid path

That's a mighty fine split you've put in that hair.

TheBardWest wrote: »

If nobody living can bestow the title, then certainly nobody living can preclude me from such a title

Nonsense. If there are no members surviving in a mystery cult, there is no need for someone to say "hey, you can't be a member of that mystery cult, you don't know the mysteries". Likewise, you do not know all of the stories that were required verbatim for membership. Do you speak enough langauges? Can you replicate a piece of music on any isntrument having heard it only once?

TheBardWest wrote: »

as there is no working definition to create a law that may create an allowance for someone to bestow such a title.

Therefore the title is defunct. Which is the point.
You have no right to say "well, there's no one else who can bestow it, so I'll just take it with no consideration whatsoever for the original context of the word and make it mean something completely different to what it used to mean and then get irritated and ratty at someone who says 'actually, those people there are not practicing ancient traditions, they're not the druids of ancient tara, they don't even resemble them'" which is exactly what you've done here.
I posted talking about how using Con Connors and the like to support the whole "Look, Lugh is Indra, you're doing our religion wrong" post and you went off at me on a paranoid bender.
I am not an academic with an axe to grind. I'm an intellectually honest pagan. When I see someone lying about my culture, I call them on it.

Now, if you want me to go through my first post and take the evidence from the Invasion Cycle to support my first post, I will. But don't you think that that's all a bit pointless, given it's patently obvious.

TheBardWest wrote: »

For what its worth, your people skills do not come through your internet engagements.

Nor do yours.

TheBardWest wrote: »

Perhaps we'd find that we'd be fast friends after all...

Doubtful.
I hold intellectual honesty to be mandatory for friendship.

TheBardWest

CuAnnan wrote: »

I posted talking about how using Con Connors and the like to support the whole "Look, Lugh is Indra, you're doing our religion wrong" post and you went off at me on a paranoid bender.

This is not what the OP said, nor what he intended. Intellect includes the capacity for understanding, does it not? It also includes the ability to think abstractly - making inference or asking clarifying questions instead of making patently false paraphrases.

Perhaps you should give Con a call and see what he has to say. He met with Surendra and spent some time with him. The two of them seemed to get along well and to have a great deal of mutual respect for one another.

In all honestly I do apologize for any offensive comments I may have made, CuAnnan. But I consider empathy and compassion and an ability to engage in inquiry all mandatory for friendship. Intellectual honesty can't be determined if you're passing judgement and making declarative statements before you have a full understanding of both the intention and the literal expression.

Thanks for the lively debate.

Morag

Little bit

Given that Con Connors was site banned from here for breaching the site rules, it's not really fair to be talking about him when he has no right to reply.

TheBardWest

Sharrow wrote: »

Given that Con Connors was site banned from here for breaching the site rules, it's not really fair to be talking about him when he has no right to reply.

Those rules of engagement don't seem to apply to the author of the article. Why is that?

please read the below research done by one of my close friend. His name is at very end of the article. So far I didn't know this big and holy place even though I have been living in Ireland since long. You may find some sentence framing / grammatical error and sorry for this inconvenience.

And FWIW, Con's account does not appear to be banned, nor is that something that I would expect is common knowledge except to those few who have been here for a long time.

CuAnnan

Not at all

TheBardWest wrote: »

This is not what the OP said

Yes it is.
He used speaking with Druids at tara and the style of their rituals as "evidence".

TheBardWest wrote: »

It also includes the ability to think abstractly - making inference or asking clarifying questions instead of making patently false paraphrases.

I'll quote directly from the post, if you like.

TheBardWest wrote: »

In all honestly I do apologize for any offensive comments I may have made, CuAnnan.

No, you don't. If you did, you wouldn't have followed up the words of apology with "But I consider empathy and compassion and an ability to engage in inquiry all mandatory for friendship."
Empathy and Compassion have a place in my list of requirements. They may be above Intellectual honesty, they may be below it, depending on the person in question. Because I tend to make allowances for people.
But you have shown such a disregard for it, attempting to paint me as a troll (at best) or a villain (if your posts are read with the venom I initially read them with) and tried to maintain a moral superiority, all while flinging personal insults.
So, no, I don't think there's room for friendship. You can't even fess up to starting this mess.

CuAnnan

Not at all

Sharrow wrote: »

Given that Con Connors was site banned from here for breaching the site rules, it's not really fair to be talking about him when he has no right to reply.

Sorry, I was unaware of that.
I will refrain from bringing him up again.

Morag

Little bit

TheBardWest wrote: »

Those rules of engagement don't seem to apply to the author of the article. Why is that?



And FWIW, Con's account does not appear to be banned, nor is that something that I would expect is common knowledge except to those few who have been here for a long time.

They are free to sign up and defend their work and the person who posted it is also free to do so.

CuAnnan

Not at all

This is devolving into sniping. My initial post stands. We've been steadily derailing this topic into a flame war.
If you have any comments, questions or so on about my initial post, feel free to ask.
I'm not willing to continue arguing about modern "druidry". It's not constructive, it's not good for my health and it's not getting anywhere.