How Did The Shysters Get You?

HerrScheisse

"It is better to suffer wrong than to do it, and happier to be cheated sometimes than not to trust."
Samuel Johnson

Well obviously Samuel Johnson never collected militaria as there is not the possibility of being cheated, but the certainty at some stage you will fall prey to the omnipresent and dreaded "shyster".

For those unfamiliar with the term, a shyster is somebody that acts in an unscrupulous or disreputable way, especially in the affairs of money. They would sell their mother cheap and then refuse a refund.

So this thread is a therapeutic opportunity to tell your tale of when the shysters got you. No need for shame or hurt pride, we have all been there.

I first fell victim to an Austrian shyster when I started collecting. It was a militaria shop stocked full of antiquities. I noticed a Jugend blade, and was amazed to hold such an iconic piece of World War 2 history in my hands.

Words were exchanged, a deal was struck. We agreed 165 euro and his greasy hands quickly trousered the hard earned notes. I later learned, through reading up on websites, that this item is widely faked. Strangely I have held replicas in my hand that felt half as genuine as this item yet visually were more correct. It is a very solid item and well made so possibly a "Frankenstein" but definitely not genuine.

I keep it as a lesson, painfully learned.



Here is the complete dagger, scabbard included. It was the sheath that gave most of the clues.



There is no scabbard rivet and there is a lip. There should be no lip on the top of the sheath.



The motto should be etched. In this case, it would appear to be stamped. The blade is also too good, not enough wear and tear.





The snaps do not have the right pattern as seen on the period pieces.



The fishscale pattern is less densely packed as on a genuine piece.


That was me. So how did the shysters get you?

Jim S

Once by a dealer and once by an ebay seller.
The eBay seller - $200 for an artillery sight in its box - good enough , with this came a "flak sight" right colour for a Kriegsmarine item but it was in fact an optic for a range finder ...... when I got it the internal filter system was missing.
Price of sending it back......lrefund ,what refund, "sold as seen" ? lesson learned.
I later sold on the art. sight and got what it was worth so got something back from it.

The dealer - first set of binoculars I ever bought -"Luftwaffe issue in a powder blue case".
The description seemed to be good ....turned out to be a civilian set of 7x50's made in the mid 1930's. ( Made by "Schultz of Kassel")
It was not until sometime afterwards I discovered that the dealer knew perhaps as little as I did.
When you buy from a major dealer you expect that if they sell such a wide range of excellent items that "they must know what they are talking about" , wrong as Herod Aggripa said to Claudius in that great drama series "Trust no one"

A few years later - sold the civilian set on ebay got about £55 for them which was okay - I had paid £110 for the set.

The "powder blue Luftwaffe binocular case" - not Luftwaffe at all, in fact Imperial Japanese Navy issue - good news for me is I now have the right set of binoculars for that case and all in all I probably broke even on that one.( Luck more than anything).

The lessons I learned - know what you are buying, don't take the description at face value , dealers are there to sell and investing time and a few £'s / Euros in some good reference material , talking time to talk (and listen) to other collectors is a saving in the long run.


(Will add a few photos later.)

danpatjoe

I have been very lucky on this front. I haven't been stung on a bad iron cross yet, although a few years back I was almost caught out by a Floch fake, but thankfully no money had changed hands before I copped on to it.

I have in my time purchased reproductions but they were all intentional buys and were sold to me as such.

My only time getting burned was when I first started collecting, I was green and eager to get some items and hadn't done any research. I paid something like €40 - €50 for a fake Lusitania medal at an antique fair. But I did manage to land a genuine Emergency medal with 2 bars and an unmarked 1939 EK2 on the same day, so it wasn't a complete wash-out.

Still, it taught me the lesson I needed to learn. I am glad the mistake did not cost me more than that.

Step23

When I started collecting about 6 years I wasn't really clued in to medal prices and paid over the odds for a few common place medals. When I sold off my "general" medal collection so I could collect British medals I lost money where I had paid more than I should.

Also I use to collect cap badges, which was a mine field, several of the ones to Irish regiments I bought turned out to be reproductions. However I didn't spent too much on these and made some money back by selling them off as reproductions.

Collecting now to my chosen area of medals I am quite careful and haven't had any bad experiences.

MedalFuhrer

I wasn't stung by a shyster directly yet, but my sister has which annoys me. She bought me this Civil Service 25 years service medal for Christmas last year in an antique dealers in Dublin. He wanted 200 for it but she was pleased with herself as she talked him down to 170 yo-yos....... I was very happy and surprised to get it, but I then learned that the going price should be about 70 quid. I never told her.


Then in July gone she bought me this plaque. It is solid brass and heavy, so at least it is a well made fake! Anyway the old man in a flea market assured her it was genuine but all my searching online would point towards a fake/ fantasy piece. But at least she only paid the equivalent of 16 Euro for it.




Herr Sheisse, did the while square on the enamel of your knife not tell you that it was a fake?!

Morlar

MedalFuhrer wrote: »

I wasn't stung by a shyster directly yet, but my sister has which annoys me. She bought me this Civil Service 25 years service medal for Christmas last year in an antique dealers in Dublin.

Was that the guy in the georgian arcade ? If so I feel her pain !

I think sometimes they are so blatant about it that the natural reaction is to think 'this price must be right, or it must be close to the right price', can't be that much of a rip-off - but they are.

I remember years ago giving consideration to cuff titles he was selling as they appeared to be at a good price, took me a while for the penny to drop that they were extremely overpriced reproductions. People like that kill this hobby - they burn people who are then put off the whole thing due to the bad experience.

Jim S

A gent I know came across a chap in Belfast applying decals to helmets for sale.
Selling for maximum profit is what it is all about , making money but knowingly selling reproductions for the price of a period item is really an act of deception and theft.

How often do you see dealers selling period items for inflated prices, they would hold that I can sell it for what I want and if you don't like the price someone else will .....but when you see £1000 added to a price it does make you wonder.

Morlar

You can see ridiculous pricing on boards.ie/adverts.ie too.

If you look in adverts.ie today you will see a copy of An Saorstat for €1000.00.

Whereas at the whytes auction on saturday one of those sold for €130.00, and that was not the only item the buyer got (I think - have to check). Considering that was at a high-republican interest auction with bidders from all over the planet, the adverts price looks even more wacky.

364
1922: An Saorstát, The Free State Michael Collins and Arthur Griffith
memorial editions
letterpress, 8 pp
51 by 38cm., 20 by 15in.
The Irish Free State newspaper Vol. 1 No. 28, Michael Collins memorial
second edition published 30 August 1922. Also with An Saorstát Vol. 1.
No. 27 published after the death of Arthur Griffith (2 items)
€150-€200 (£130-£180 approx.)
365
1922: An Saorstát, The Free State Michael Collins memorial edition
letterpress, 8 pp
51 by 38cm., 20 by 15in.
The Irish Free State newspaper Vol. 1 No. 28, first edition published on
the 29th of August 1922. A scarce and interesting Michael Collins
memorial edition. Also with The Workers’ Republic, Vol. 1 No. 44 and “A
page from 1916 history pamphlet” criticising the role of the Irish
Independent in the aftermath of the 1916 Rising. (3 items)
€150-€250 (£130-£220 approx.)

Jim S

There prices which should not be paid, rarity and condition do influence "what the price is" but outlandish prices for common items, sometimes it is right to say no.

HerrScheisse

Medal Fuhrer - the shysters really got you on that civil award - 200 euro asking - bloody hell :eek:

I have also come across the shyster "rope-a-dope", whereby they show you something and say it is a replica, demonstrating honesty, and then try to sell you something much more expensive as genuine which is also a fake This has been tried on me on two separate occasions.

Little Alex

I myself haven't been shafted, but then again I only collect DDR.

I would amost recommend that you all switch over to the Workers' Paradise, but then again, I do hope you all stick with your Reich stuff! :pac:

MedalFuhrer

Morlar wrote: »

Was that the guy in the georgian arcade ? If so I feel her pain !

No it was an antique dealer on the top floor of the Powerscourt Townhouse. Trying to charge over 3 times the going rate! I saw that the place in the George's Street arcade was very dear when I wandered through there a few months ago,

Little Alex wrote: »

I myself haven't been shafted, but then again I only collect DDR.
I would amost recommend that you all switch over to the Workers' Paradise, but then again, I do hope you all stick with your Reich stuff! :pac:

That reminds me, my very first medal was Commie- USSR. I paid the equivalent of 65 Euro and was pleased as it was a stunning medal. I hadn't got a clue and thought that I had just bought a war medal. i later found out that it was what I call a "bread medal". Some who made loafs of bread could have been awarded it! I was a bit dissappointed. I'm not sure how far off the going price for such fine enamel ware?

Little Alex

MedalFuhrer wrote: »

Herr Sheisse, did the while square on the enamel of your knife not tell you that it was a fake?!

Meant to quote you on that in the last post! hehe :pac:

MedalFuhrer wrote: »

That reminds me, my very first medal was Commie- USSR. I paid the equivalent of 65 Euro and was pleased as it was a stunning medal. I hadn't got a clue and thought that I had just bought a war medal. i later found out that it was what I call a "bread medal". Some who made loafs of bread could have been awarded it! I was a bit dissappointed. I'm not sure how far off the going price for such fine enamel ware?

Just about the only Soviet awards that are relevant to DDR collectors are the Hero of the USSR (which is without a doubt going to be a fake) or the 1950s/1960s Soviet military academy graduation badge (In the early years DDR officers were trained in Russia and were awarded the Soviet badge). I have a fake one (which I knowingly bought) and a real one.

Despite being widely faked it is still possible to get genuine ones for reasonable prices, however.

Anyway, MedalFuhrer, that is the extent of my USSR knowledge so I can't say how much your medal is worth.