New Insurance law for UK cars.

mercdave66

Hi,
I just saw an ad on UTV from the DVLA. It stated that all cars registered in the UK must be insured. Does anyone know how this will affect people with UK cars in ROI. I have a 26 year old car in storage and am concerned about the implications.:(

Thanks,

Dave

bennyx_o

They're hardly going to come all the way to Ireland to do anything about it. It's nothing to worry about tbh

OldmanMondeo

Sure if it is off the road should be no issue, once you can prove it. For you own piece of mind, I would put some insurance on it.

dev100

mercdave66 wrote: »

Hi,
I just saw an ad on UTV from the DVLA. It stated that all cars registered in the UK must be insured. Does anyone know how this will affect people with UK cars in ROI. I have a 26 year old car in storage and am concerned about the implications.:(

Thanks,

Dave

Is it not a system where you have to inform the dvla that your car is off the road? and then your exempt?

Sure your car is Ireland different country wont apply

Big Nasty

A - It won't affect you in any way as long as the car is not in the UK

B - In the UK cars not being used for a period of time must be SORN'd or declared 'off the road' and would then be exempt from this law. However there is pretty severe penalties if you are caught driving a SORN'd car in the UK.

Good system you ask me.

dev100

MCMLXXV wrote: »

A -

B - In the UK cars not being used for a period of time must be SORN'd or declared 'off the road' and would then be exempt from this law. However there is pretty sever penalties if you are caught driving a SORN'd car in the UK.

Good system you ask me.

Wont be long before we see a system like that here.

dev100

dev100 wrote: »

Wont be long before we see a system like that here.

Unfortunately.

mercdave66

Going to wait 'til the car is 30 and then register her (please god). Just wondering if there will be any implications as the car is not registered to me in ROI. :rolleyes:

There must be thousands of people with cars in sheds and garages with UK reg plates??

Big Nasty

Reginald Itchy Somewhere wrote: »

Unfortunately.

Why? So you can declare your car of the road for 3 months and get away with taxing it even though it was in everyday use?

Just a guess now - could be completely wrong!

Alan b.

pretend you never saw it and dont worry.

the ad's are a little misleading as they say any car registered must be insured, but you can still, as has been the case for years, declare it sorn and not need insurance.

as for you not being the owner in the uk, wont matter, theres a good chance the original owner sent in the documents to say it was exported anyway. so its not going to be in the old owners name anyway.

Big Nasty

mercdave66 wrote: »

Going to wait 'til the car is 30 and then register her (please god). Just wondering if there will be any implications as the car is not registered to me in ROI. :rolleyes:

There must be thousands of people with cars in sheds and garages with UK reg plates??

Presumably the reason you haven't registered it to date is to avoid VRT. Come 2015 this may not be as easy as you think.

CiniO

MCMLXXV wrote: »

A - It won't affect you in any way as long as the car is not in the UK

What's the difference where the car is?

If the car is still registered in UK, person who is a registered keeper will be responsible to insure it or declare it SORN.

They will check database against uninsured cars, and will be able to put penalties, without a need of seeing a car, or checking if it's in UK or abroad.

mercdave66

I agree that any car in use should be taxed and insured, my car is in storage and when I take it out on the road it will be road legal. The UK system is a good system and it would be no harm to follow suit.
I have had two incidents where an uninsured driver damaged my car and caused me serious grief trying to get payment for the damage....:mad:

mercdave66

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Presumably the reason you haven't registered it to date is to avoid VRT. Come 2015 this may not be as easy as you think.

What problems do you see in 2015. Can't afford the VRT now so it is my only option...

stoneill

I believe the add means cars on the road in the UK
The NPRS will will pick up un-insured cars and the DVLA can impound and crush the cars. If the car is not in the UK then it won't be captured by the DVLA NPRS.

Big Nasty

CiniO wrote: »

What's the difference where the car is?

If the car is still registered in UK, person who is a registered keeper will be responsible to insure it or declare it SORN.

They will check database against uninsured cars, and will be able to put penalties, without a need of seeing a car, or checking if it's in UK or abroad.

Fair enough point but it's UK law not irish / EU law and I doubt they can prosecute someone in Ireland who owns a car still on UK plates.

CiniO

stoneill wrote: »

I believe the add means cars on the road in the UK
The NPRS will will pick up un-insured cars and the DVLA can impound and crush the cars. If the car is not in the UK then it won't be captured by the DVLA NPRS.

But they car go through database regularly, and check which cars not declared as SORN has no insurance. And issue penalties for registered owners.
All this without even leaving the office and seeing the car.

barura

Woah, wait... Hold on a second!

Are you saying that any car that isn't declared off the road should be insured and subsequently taxed because it's in use? And if it isn't it should be declared as such?? :P

Though in seriousness, this is just putting the foot down on something that people are too lax to do. If your car isn't in use, it should be put into storage or taken off the road.

CiniO

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Fair enough point but it's UK law not irish / EU law and I doubt they can prosecute someone in Ireland who owns a car still on UK plates.

Of course they can't.

But if Paddy in his garden in Limerick had his brother's car on UK plates, which is registered on his brother's name who lives in UK, then brother can be prosecuted.

CiniO

barura wrote: »

Woah, wait... Hold on a second!

Are you saying that any car that isn't declared off the road should be insured and subsequently taxed because it's in use? And if it isn't it should be declared as such?? :P

Exactly.

Big Nasty

CiniO wrote: »

Of course they can't.

But if Paddy in his garden in Limerick had his brother's car on UK plates, which is registered on his brother's name who lives in UK, then brother can be prosecuted.

But this clearly isn't the case here.

Big Nasty

mercdave66 wrote: »

What problems do you see in 2015. Can't afford the VRT now so it is my only option...

Any imported car is supposed to be VRT'd within a number of days although since the NCT crowd took over this has been extended to a few weeks. You can't just rock up with a car you've had for 5 years (be it off the road or not) and say 'well it's over 30 years old now so it's NCT exempt'. They will ask for receipts.

si_guru

Reginald Itchy Somewhere wrote: »

Unfortunately.

You really agree with untaxed and uninsured cars being on the roads then?

...or mindless trolling?

mercdave66

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Any imported car is supposed to be VRT'd within a number of days although since the NCT crowd took over this has been extended to a few weeks. You can't just rock up with a car you've had for 5 years (be it off the road or not) and say 'well it's over 30 years old now so it's NCT exempt'. They will ask for receipts.

I appreciate what you are saying but funds or lack of funds have me between a rock and a hard place. A friend of mine registered a '08 520 BMW for less than the VRT people want for my old girl:(:(

CiniO

si_guru wrote: »

You really agree with untaxed and uninsured cars being on the roads then?

...or mindless trolling?

I'll answer this question from my point of view.

1. I don't give a damn if other cars are taxed or not, as this doesn't affect me in any way.

2. Considering current insurance regulations - where even if the owner insured a car, but still insurance might not be valid as it was someone else driving, or owner forgot to reveal some detail, or car was modified from manufactureres spec of which owner didn't know and didn't reveal it, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.... I don't give a damn about obligatory insurance, as there is too many variables which might invalidate it.

When they introduce law, which will make insurance companies to cover anything done by the car which was insured (no matter who and no matter how) - I will be very much for obligatory insurance checks for everyone.

Otherwise it doesn't really have sense, as even those checks, chance that I meet someone uninsured on the road are big.

Big Nasty

mercdave66 wrote: »

I appreciate what you are saying but funds or lack of funds have me between a rock and a hard place. A friend of mine registered a '08 520 BMW for less than the VRT people want for my old girl:(:(

VRT Calc says €5197 for a boggo spec '08 520d - what have you got!?! :eek::eek::eek:

mercdave66

The whole insurance thing is a minefield. The insurance companies will do anything to get out of paying a claim....

CiniO

mercdave66 wrote: »

The whole insurance thing is a minefield. The insurance companies will do anything to get out of paying a claim....

That's why there should be the law forcing them to pay out the claim.

mercdave66

MCMLXXV wrote: »

VRT Calc says €5197 for a boggo spec '08 520d - what have you got!?! :eek::eek::eek:

The guy I know registered an M spec 520d (08) for 3200ish. I have an '86 3 door Sierra Cosworth. VRT is calculated at the highest rate.:(. You won't find the figure on for the Sierra on the VRT calculator. Went through the process and they quoted me over 3 grand.....:mad:

martin46585

MCMLXXV wrote: »

You can't just rock up with a car you've had for 5 years (be it off the road or not) and say 'well it's over 30 years old now so it's NCT exempt'. They will ask for receipts.

they wont ask for any receipt of date of purchase, they will only be interested in the relevant paper work on the day, the car doesnt even have to be registered to you, just so long as you have the log book, and hence permanently exported from the uk................

Guy:Incognito

CiniO wrote: »

What's the difference where the car is?

If the car is still registered in UK, person who is a registered keeper will be responsible to insure it or declare it SORN.

They will check database against uninsured cars, and will be able to put penalties, without a need of seeing a car, or checking if it's in UK or abroad.

Assuming the person who sold it covered himself, he will have sent off the last section of the V5 and DVLA have it down as permenantly exported. So it's most likely gone from the country as far as they are concerned.

galwaytt

MCMLXXV wrote: »

A - It won't affect you in any way as long as the car is not in the UK

B - In the UK cars not being used for a period of time must be SORN'd or declared 'off the road' and would then be exempt from this law. However there is pretty severe penalties if you are caught driving a SORN'd car in the UK.

Good system you ask me.

mercdave66 wrote: »

I agree that any car in use should be taxed and insured, my car is in storage and when I take it out on the road it will be road legal. The UK system is a good system and it would be no harm to follow suit.

barura wrote: »

Woah, wait... Hold on a second!

Are you saying that any car that isn't declared off the road should be insured and subsequently taxed because it's in use? And if it isn't it should be declared as such?? :P

Though in seriousness, this is just putting the foot down on something that people are too lax to do. If your car isn't in use, it should be put into storage or taken off the road.

MCMLXXV wrote: »

But this clearly isn't the case here.

CiniO wrote: »

I'll answer this question from my point of view.

1. I don't give a damn if other cars are taxed or not, as this doesn't affect me in any way.

2. Considering current insurance regulations - where even if the owner insured a car, but still insurance might not be valid as it was someone else driving, or owner forgot to reveal some detail, or car was modified from manufactureres spec of which owner didn't know and didn't reveal it, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.... I don't give a damn about obligatory insurance, as there is too many variables which might invalidate it.

When they introduce law, which will make insurance companies to cover anything done by the car which was insured (no matter who and no matter how) - I will be very much for obligatory insurance checks for everyone.

Otherwise it doesn't really have sense, as even those checks, chance that I meet someone uninsured on the road are big.

People need to wake up and smell the coffee. The UK legislation being referred to in the ad is the NEW one, that has nothing to do with SORN. The new legislation is that ANY car, registered, even if SORN'd - must be insured. Being on, or off, the road, has nothing to do with it.


And this is but one reason why you should support the motorcycle protests tomorrow. Everything being rammed down their throats, is merely indicative of other stuff coming down the line, and it's time people stood up and did something about it. I haven't figured out how, yet, as I'll be minding my Deux Enfant's, but I'm doing my damndest to be there.

The new UK law has huge ramifications for those who own more than 1 car, who have a classic car seldom used, a resto project etc etc etc.........You Have Been Warned

CiniO wrote: »

That's why there should be the law forcing them to pay out the claim.

There is. Once a certificate of insurance is issued under the Road Traffic Act 1963, you are covered, and that is the end of it. Irrespective of if you never had a licence - but lied about it - and the proposal accepted, and cert issued - the insurer still has to pay. That is the law in THIS land. However, after paying out a claim, they have the right to sue you in Civil court to recoup the monies.

CiniO

galwaytt wrote: »

People need to wake up and smell the coffee. The UK legislation being referred to in the ad is the NEW one, that has nothing to do with SORN. The new legislation is that ANY car, registered, even if SORN'd - must be insured.

You are not right here.
Every vehicle must be insured, except from vehicles which were SORN'ed.
That's the new law we are all talking about here, that's coming in UK next year.

Source here

There is. Once a certificate of insurance is issued under the Road Traffic Act 1963, you are covered, and that is the end of it. Irrespective of if you never had a licence - but lied about it - and the proposal accepted, and cert issued - the insurer still has to pay. That is the law in THIS land. However, after paying out a claim, they have the right to sue you in Civil court to recoup the monies.

What in case, if I lend my car to a friend which is not named on my policy, and he crashes.
Will my insurer pay out as well?

Big Nasty

galwaytt wrote: »

People need to wake up and smell the coffee. The UK legislation being referred to in the ad is the NEW one, that has nothing to do with SORN. The new legislation is that ANY car, registered, even if SORN'd - must be insured. Being on, or off, the road, has nothing to do with it.

Are you telling me that if I live in the UK and have a SORN'd car in my back garden that has almost dissolved into the ground with rust but I'm holding on to it because it used to belong to my great-great grandfather then I'll have to insure it!?!:eek::eek::eek:

My bollox!

CiniO

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Are you telling me that if I live in the UK and have a SORN'd car in my back garden that has almost dissolved into the ground with rust but I'm holding on to it because it used to belong to my great-great grandfather then I'll have to insure it!?!:eek::eek::eek:

My bollox!

Sounds like nightmare, but actually it's reality in Poland and probably few other EU countries.

galwaytt

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Are you telling me that if I live in the UK and have a SORN'd car in my back garden that has almost dissolved into the ground with rust but I'm holding on to it because it used to belong to my great-great grandfather then I'll have to insure it!?!:eek::eek::eek:

My bollox!

Yes, that's exactly what's coming in in the UK.

challengemaster

martin46585 wrote: »

they wont ask for any receipt of date of purchase, they will only be interested in the relevant paper work on the day, the car doesnt even have to be registered to you, just so long as you have the log book, and hence permanently exported from the uk................

Yes, they will.

Currently these are the forms you need to produce when VRTing your car (I jut got mine done wednesday, so I think I know)

NCTS.ie wrote:

Used Vehicle:
1) Please print and fill out the following Declaration Form for the Registration of a used Vehicle/ Motorcycle

2) Evidence of previous registration e.g. foreign certificate of registration, a certificate of permanent exportation or a certificate of de-registration, as appropriate (this document will be retained by NCTS so please ensure you make a copy of it before you go to the test centre).

3) Invoice which must have the date of purchase/sale clearly indicated

4) Documentation verifying the new registered owner’s name and address (Utility Bill, Bank Statement, please note original documentation will only be acceptedand must be no older than 6 months)

5) Personal Public Service (PPS) Number of the person in whose name the vehicle shall be registered to (Official documentation will only be accepted i.e Social Services Card, P60)

6) For vehicles imported from Northern Ireland, where the invoice is dated more that 30 days earlier than the date the vehicle is presented for registration, details of where the vehicle was stored. For vehicles purchased in the EU, we require shipping details to confirm the date of arrival of the vehicle in the state. For vehicles outside the EU, we require the single administrative number and the date it was issued by customs at the point of entry to the EU.

7) Where an exemption from VRT is claimed, the exemption notification letter issued by Revenue.

8) Documentation (as approved by the Revenue Commissioners) confirming the level of CO2 emissions of the vehicle at the time of manufacture (if this information is not on the foreign certificate of registration). Where evidence of the level of CO2 emissions of the vehicle at the time of manufacture is not available at registration VRT will be charged at the highest rate applicable.

9) For vehicles over 4 years old, an unexpired roadworthiness certificate confirming that an equivalent to the NCT test has been passed. The vehicle will be called for a roadworthiness test (NCT) shortly after registration.

revenue.ie wrote:

Additional Charge Raised by Revenue where a Vehicle has not been Registered within 30 days

Section 62 of Finance Act (No 2) 2008 allows the Commissioners to raise an additional charge on registration where Revenue are of the opinion that the vehicle has not been registered within the specified 30 day limit. This usually arises where satisfactory documentary evidence is not produced at the time the vehicle is presented for registration.

Any queries relating to an additional charge having been raised at registration should be addressed to the VRT section within your Revenue district. Please note that queries relating to an additional charge will not be entertained unless documentary evidence is produced giving proof of the date that the vehicle entered the State and reasons why the said documentation was not produced to the NCTS when the vehicle was presented for registration.

It should be noted that an unregistered vehicle may be detained by Revenue officials or by An Garda Síochána if the vehicle is not registered within the specified 30 day limit

So you're a lot more screwed then you thought.

galwaytt

CiniO wrote: »

You are not right here.
Every vehicle must be insured, except from vehicles which were SORN'ed.
That's the new law we are all talking about here, that's coming in UK next year.

Source here

The proposal is to change that , irrespective of SORN, due in part to the huge problem of uninsured driving that is now rampant in the UK.

CiniO wrote: »

What in case, if I lend my car to a friend which is not named on my policy, and he crashes.
Will my insurer pay out as well?

Why would they, if he has no insurance ?? If your friend isn't on your insurance, and he has none of his own - he's not insured, and there is nothing to pay. Here it is NOT the vehicle that's insured - it's the driver.

And, the icing on the cake is that, by you letting your friend drive your car, uninsured, you too are liable for prosecution and penalty points - this to avoid the very scenario you are speaking of.

barura

galwaytt wrote: »

Yes, that's exactly what's coming in in the UK.

The government will lose money. It's silly to try and find all the cars that aren't doing anything and then try to get them insured.

What about on your own private land? If you declare it off the road, don't you take the plates off and it's not allowed on the road anymore? How can they ask you to insure that?

CiniO

galwaytt wrote: »

Why would they, if he has no insurance ?? If your friend isn't on your insurance, and he has none of his own - he's not insured, and there is nothing to pay. Here it is NOT the vehicle that's insured - it's the driver.

And, the icing on the cake is that, by you letting your friend drive your car, uninsured, you too are liable for prosecution and penalty points - this to avoid the very scenario you are speaking of.

So that's what I was talking about.

What's the point in forcing people to pay insurance on every car (including cars that are not used) to make sure there's no uninsured drivers on the road, if there is such a big loophole that anyone without insurance can hop onto any car and start driving uninsured.

From my experiance, such system - where third party insurance is obligatory in all cases (no matter if car is used or not) is in force in Poland, and works very well - meaning no uninsured drivers are on the road.
The only trick here is, that insurance is not for a driver, but for the vehicle owner, and it covers any damage caused by anyone driving that vehicle.

That pretty much eliminates uninsured drivers from the roads at all.

Marlow

galwaytt wrote: »

Why would they, if he has no insurance ?? If your friend isn't on your insurance, and he has none of his own - he's not insured, and there is nothing to pay. Here it is NOT the vehicle that's insured - it's the driver.

And, the icing on the cake is that, by you letting your friend drive your car, uninsured, you too are liable for prosecution and penalty points - this to avoid the very scenario you are speaking of.

No. You're not quite right there. It's the combination of the vehicle and the drivers named in the policy that is insured. In most cases of private policies, the policy holder then has third party insurance in other cars. This does not apply to named drivers nor commercial policies.

The garda insurance database only knows if a car has insurance or not. It does not know which drivers are insured on a vehicle.

If you borrow your vehicle to somebody else, it is your responsibility to check and ensure, that he has a valid driving license and has insurance or is covered by your policy to drive the car. Otherwise you're liable a owner alright.

/M

Marcusm

mercdave66 wrote: »

Hi,
I just saw an ad on UTV from the DVLA. It stated that all cars registered in the UK must be insured. Does anyone know how this will affect people with UK cars in ROI. I have a 26 year old car in storage and am concerned about the implications.:(

Thanks,

Dave

I'm quoting the original post but have the benefit of some of the later replies.

Many of the posts advise that you simply make a SORN and that will sort out the problem. One of the issues that you will face is that the SORN requires you to confirm that the vehicle is off the road AND in the UK available for inspection should such be required. While it is highly unlikely that any inspection would ever be sought, this would likely be a false declaration. It might already be an issue as the SORN process applies for motor tax and presumably SORN declarations have already been made in respect of the car although if it's been in storage for a long time it might have preceded this.

Our man in Havana

http://www.selnec.org.uk/sorn.htm

Despite misleading information in some preservation Journals, it is the case that only vehicles that were actually taxed on or after 31st January 1998 and not subsequently re-taxed that attract the SORN Rules and we have had to be careful to abide by the SORN Rules when we have buses that are not taxed.

Hence, any preserved vehicles that were not taxed at 31st January 1998, or subsequently, do not require SORN declaration. This means that a number of our long-term preservation projects which we have had for a number of years, and have not been taxed for some considerable time, such as the Mancunians 1142, 1177, 2130 and 2220 do not require an SORN declaration.

mercdave66

I think I opened a serious can of worms here! I can't SORN the car as I'm not a UK resident and I can't register the car in my name as I don't live in the UK. The car is insured on my classic car policy but cannot be used on Irish roads as it is on UK plates.

The only solution is to VRT the car, but I don't have the cash to do so....

Also, as far as I know, (correct me if I'm wrong) you are not allowed to sell a UK registered car in ROI unless you are a motor dealer and have a TAN number??

Marcusm

mercdave66 wrote: »

I think I opened a serious can of worms here! I can't SORN the car as I'm not a UK resident and I can't register the car in my name as I don't live in the UK. The car is insured on my classic car policy but cannot be used on Irish roads as it is on UK plates.

The only solution is to VRT the car, but I don't have the cash to do so....

Also, as far as I know, (correct me if I'm wrong) you are not allowed to sell a UK registered car in ROI unless you are a motor dealer and have a TAN number??

You can sell it to me for £50; I'll take delivery on the Irish Ferries ship to Holyhead! You're going to have to get it there on a low loader though as an Irish resident is not permitted to drive a foreign registered car in Ireland!

challengemaster

mercdave66 wrote: »

I think I opened a serious can of worms here! I can't SORN the car as I'm not a UK resident and I can't register the car in my name as I don't live in the UK. The car is insured on my classic car policy but cannot be used on Irish roads as it is on UK plates.

The only solution is to VRT the car, but I don't have the cash to do so....


Also, as far as I know, (correct me if I'm wrong) you are not allowed to sell a UK registered car in ROI unless you are a motor dealer and have a TAN number??

I suggest you read my first reply, you might see a few issues with that...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74580072&postcount=37

mercdave66

So basically you are saaying I'm up s**t creek with no paddles??:P

galwaytt

mercdave66 wrote: »

So basically you are saaying I'm up s**t creek with no paddles??:P

Quite possibly, worse: up creek, no paddles, hole in the canoe.......and river of Piranha's...........

If you have it insured with an Irish insurer, on a UK reg, expect a knock on your door one of the days: all non-Irish reg cars, insured by an Irish insurer, are advised of to Revenue after 30 days.........that law came not too long ago...... I got a note from my insurer to that effect...... :eek:

BronsonTB

mercdave66 wrote: »

Going to wait 'til the car is 30 and then register her (please god). Just wondering if there will be any implications as the car is not registered to me in ROI. :rolleyes:

There must be thousands of people with cars in sheds and garages with UK reg plates??

And you will need to NCT it yearly after you have it registered. Only saving is on the tax....Is it that big an engine that you are saving keeping it off the road for so long?