Veiled attack on 'new forms of Christianity'

Asry

So being the yuppie I am, I found this article on twitter this morning. I'll post the link here.

I was just wondering what people's opinions of this are? Does the RCC have the right to deride evangelical & Pentecostal churches? If so, why?

Also, do you feel that the world (meaning the West, I suppose?) is indeed turning towards these 'new forms' of Christianity, away from the longer-established institutions? And if so, why do you think this might be?

alex73

Once when to a Pentecostal service.. My impressions:-

At the door they have people to imediately knew who was a member and who was not, So I was targeted so see why I was there and if I wanted to join..

-praise and worship- The who service was very long, Testimonies, singing, Dancing, Clapping, dancing in the Spirit. Speaking in tongues, Prophecies.

I know RCC has had its failings.. But Pentecostalism has shady fund-raising practices. Robert Tilton for example amassed personal weight of over 80million. And there are other Charismatic leaders who are also not poor.

What is the real motives behind the Sect? If you can all it that as its not really a unified movement, Once Church does one thing and another another way.

And for some reason in the States some of the leaders of the movements, Even being married, come out has having have Gay relationships and paid off people to keep quite.

Anyway I have never managed to get a clear view of the movement. But if you want to loose a few pounds and get some exercise, go to one of their services.

JimiTime

alex73 wrote: »

Once when to a Pentecostal service.. My impressions:-

At the door they have people to imediately knew who was a member and who was not, So I was targeted so see why I was there and if I wanted to join..

-praise and worship- The who service was very long, Testimonies, singing, Dancing, Clapping, dancing in the Spirit. Speaking in tongues, Prophecies.

I know RCC has had its failings.. But Pentecostalism has shady fund-raising practices. Robert Tilton for example amassed personal weight of over 80million. And there are other Charismatic leaders who are also not poor.

What is the real motives behind the Sect? If you can all it that as its not really a unified movement, Once Church does one thing and another another way.

And for some reason in the States some of the leaders of the movements, Even being married, come out has having have Gay relationships and paid off people to keep quite.

Anyway I have never managed to get a clear view of the movement. But if you want to loose a few pounds and get some exercise, go to one of their services.

And the winner of the most contradictions in a post go to......

They are not unified - But a lot of the married leaders pay gay lovers to keep quiet.

I don't have a clear view of the 'movement' (which is not unified), but if you want to lose a few pound go to their services.

Sounds like you have a quite clear impression of what you think they are about, and in your spiel above, it seems quite clear that you think they are unified in money grabbing.

I've no horse in the race, but I can tell you now, that while charlatans and faux christians exist throughout all of Christianity (Just look within the walls of your own particular sect with their history of money grabbing indulgences, child rape and cover ups etc.) there are some fine Christians, doing wonderful work spreading the good news that would be classed as 'Pentecostal'.

alex73

JimiTime wrote: »

And the winner of the most contradictions in a post go to......

They are not unified - But a lot of the married leaders pay gay lovers to keep quiet.

I don't have a clear view of the 'movement' (which is not unified), but if you want to lose a few pound go to their services.

Sounds like you have a quite clear impression of what you think they are about, and in your spiel above, it seems quite clear that you think they are unified in money grabbing.

I've no horse in the race, but I can tell you now, that while charlatans and faux christians exist throughout all of Christianity (Just look within the walls of your own particular sect with their history of money grabbing indulgences, child rape and cover ups etc.) there are some fine Christians, doing wonderful work spreading the good news that would be classed as 'Pentecostal'.

I don't deny my Church's History. People abuse power.

But pentecostalism (especially in the States) is a major money making Movement with Leaders who are Multimillionaires. I hear the Criticisms of that Vatican having vast wealth.. Thats nothing compared to the network of Wealth amassed by Pentecostals in US.

Fanny Cradock

alex73 wrote: »

Once when to a Pentecostal service.. My impressions:-

Those seem more like preconceptions you went with and not impressions formed from an open hearted analysis. The whole sectarianism thing you are so seduced by is dreadfully unappealing.

It is common in charismatic movements and other denominations such as evangelicalism to have people greet you at the door. Indeed, I wouldn't be surprise to see a "meet and greet" party at a charismatic Roman Catholic church.

Now if you were merely arguing that this is in bad taste and more suited to the door of a Walmart or some other American mega business I might agree. Then again it doesn't bother me particularly, even if the greeting is saccharine sweet, and I know that many people appreciate it.

But I gather that you must have some special knowledge of intent or ability to peer into the hearts of man to know that the real reason is for this evil "sect" exists is to defraud you and line the pockets of the leadership. All of which is an impressive insight considering you hadn't yet crossed the threshold of the building. However, I find it much more likely that you went there with all the same dark and ugly sectarianism in your heart that you display here on regular occasions.

Getting back on topic, I would say that perhaps there is some truth to the pope's words. (Though he didn't say it in the right way). At times I am concerned by the anti-intellectualism found in Christian denominations. I would look towards some quarters of Evangelicalism as an example of an attempt to separate faith from the intellect. In fairness there seems to be concerted push from thinkers within evangelicalism towards the Biblical idea that you must "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind". J.P. Moreland talks more about the idea that faith -- which I think is better described as "trust" -- is a synthesis of the body, spirit and mind here.

Perhaps PDN can talk about the lack of tradition in churches within China etc. I can see this having both advantages and disadvantages.

PDN

Pentecostalism is certainly not one unified organisation. It is much more like a movement in music art or literature - where people share common perceptions of truth or beauty, but also differ greatly in how they express that. The common denominator among Pentecostals/Charismatics is that they see the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit as described in the New testament to still be in practice today. They also tend to have very expressive worship with plenty of singing, clapping, possibly dancing and other congregational participation (although, to be fair, this is common to most Christians in many parts of the world - there are many Catholic immigrants from Africa, for example, who choose to attend Pentecostal services in Ireland because they find the worship more like what they were used to at masses at home).

There are three main strands to the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement:
a) Classical Pentecostal denominations (I myself am a minister in one) generally date back to the beginning of the 20th Century. They include Assemblies of God, Elim Pentecostal Church, Church of God, Church of God in Christ etc. These denominations have been around long enough to build denominational structures such as extensive missionary organisations, universities etc.
b) Independent Pentecostal churches and ministries use Pentecostal terminology but often reject the classical Pentecostals as being too traditionally evangelical. Therefore characters like Benny Hinn etc are not affiliated with any denomination.
c) Charismatic neo-Pentecostals remain in traditional churches (Catholic, Anglican, Methodist etc) but incorporate many Pentecostal practices.

It superficial, inaccurate and lazy to pretend that megachurches with wealthy pastors somehow typify Pentecostalism (a bit like saying that grocery stores are all like Tesco). The majority of Pentecostal churches average less than 100 in attendance and the pastor is generally bi-vocational or unpaid.

There have certainly been scandals with some Pentecostal leaders - as there have been with leaders in every walk of life and in every denomination. Human nature is still weak and fallible, irrespective of whether a preacher wears a mitre or a 3-piece suit.

The disorganised nature of Pentecostalism is both its greatest strength and its greatest weakness. On the plus side, it allows for phenomenal growth. The Pentecostal/Charismatic movement is estimated to be the fastest growing non-militaristic movement of any kind in the history of humanity - in 100 years it grew from virtually nothing to embrace approx 10% of the global population. But it also means that charlatans and con-merchants find ready opportunities to fleece the gullible. Again, on the plus side, you won't find Pentecostals burning their opponents at the stake, or fighting wars of religion.

Fanny Cradock

PDN wrote: »

The disorganised nature of Pentecostalism is both its greatest strength and its greatest weakness. On the plus side, it allows for phenomenal growth. The Pentecostal/Charismatic movement is estimated to be the fastest growing non-militaristic movement of any kind in the history of humanity - in 100 years it grew from virtually nothing to embrace approx 10% of the global population. But it also means that charlatans and con-merchants find ready opportunities to fleece the gullible. Again, on the plus side, you won't find Pentecostals burning their opponents at the stake, or fighting wars of religion.

This is what I was hoping you would address. One can't help but be impressed by the work of the Spirit in the staggering growth Christianity has enjoyed throughout Asia, S. America and Africa. (It makes me laugh when we see people on this forum -- presumably white middle class Irish still living under some long dead Enlightenment dream -- claim that Christianity is just about to give up the ghost.)

But I can't help wonder where all this is going? I've heard near apocalyptic predictions of a collapse in US evangelicalism and religious adherence in Europe to the point that in X amount of years Asia, Africa and South America will be sending missionaries to convert the godless western masses.

While I think there is some truth in this -- Europe is post-Christian in many respects; though I don't suppose people will ever loose the need for God -- I just wonder what type of Christianity will arise from other parts of the world as its base shifts towards places like China.

Manach

Based on historical precedents, when Europe was a barbarian area, fusion and fissure type tendencies. Fission when the type of Christianity divereges from the basic template and begins to incorportate local elements into the doctrine - such as Celtic Christianity. Fusion when they literally become more Roman than the Roman, a rigid adherence to the norms and traditions of the mother Church, as would have happened in the North Africa cities.