Integrating a new boiler stove and oil boiler

podge3

I have just installed a new boiler stove and am wondering what is the simplest way to integrate it with my existing oil boiler.

First off, will one pump do the whole system? I could easily re-postion it to anywhere in the pipework as I have lots of access.

Obviously the circulation to the stove will need to be cutoff when the oil boiler is on and vice-versa. I also want to be able to use both systems together. Would a 3 port valve like this do the job if correctly positioned and wired?: http://www.myson.co.uk/static_files/my/media/downloads/MPE_322_Installation_sheet_Sept_2009.pdf

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Stove Fan

podge3 wrote: »

I have just installed a new boiler stove and am wondering what is the simplest way to integrate it with my existing oil boiler.

First off, will one pump do the whole system? I could easily re-postion it to anywhere in the pipework as I have lots of access.

Obviously the circulation to the stove will need to be cutoff when the oil boiler is on and vice-versa. I also want to be able to use both systems together. Would a 3 port valve like this do the job if correctly positioned and wired?: http://www.myson.co.uk/static_files/my/media/downloads/MPE_322_Installation_sheet_Sept_2009.pdf

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Hi:) Please get a plumber in to do the plumbing for you as asking these questions sends doubts in my mind.

Have a look at systemlink.
http://www.systemlink.ie/home


Or Dunsley baker neutralizer.
http://www.dunsleyheat.co.uk/linkupsys.htm

There is another way that seems popular here. I will not mention this way as it could be an explosion waiting to happen if done wrong:(

There would normally be two pumps depending on the system setup. The boiler stove and oil boiler must be open vented for safety!! Cold feed tank to supply water to the rads and to allow for expansion when the water is heated. There should be no valves blocking the cold feed and vent pipe from the stove.

Get a plumber in to fit it. Not worth the risk. Its' too dangerous for us to give advice without seeing your heating system.

Stove Fan:)

heinbloed

Both thermal sources can be linked with 1 pump.

As long as both are installed in the to-be-heated space the thermal energy pumped through the idle thermal source would not be lost.

Stove fan's comment

The boiler stove and oil boiler must be open vented for safety

is simply wrong. There are numerous boilers ( 'boiler stoves' ) around which are designed to be integrated in pressurised plumbing systems. Don't forget that entire Europe has the pressurised water circulation as basic standard.
Most boilers on this globe are designed to be pressurised and to run to at about 3-6 bar, the safety valve kicks in between 6 and 10 bar. Safety valves must come with them, EN certificates as well.
Ireland and the UK are pretty alone in the plumbing field, the 'professionals' hardly more than DIYers with extremly limited knowledge and capeabilities.

Get a heating engineer in, a simple stove installer is hardly able to install a proper hydraulic system. Most believe in myths, basic hydraulic calculations they can't do. But these calculations are necessary.
Get your numbers done, the hydraulic system designed by someone who knows how to calculate pressure and thermal losses, how to integrate the individual parts into a sucesfull heating system.

podge3

Thanks for the replies. I should probably have said that I have a plumber on site but I would like to ensure that the link up is done in the best manner possible.

I should also have described my stove/boiler layout a bit better. The existing system is an standard open system, the house being about 12 years old. The new stove is situated about 8 feet away from the oil boiler so this really should be a fairly simple project.

The 3 port valve I mentioned earlier seems like a good option IMHO as it defaults to having one of the outlets open with no power applied. This could be used for the stove boiler and controlled through a pipe stat from the oil boiler i.e. when the oil comes on the stove is bypassed if the pipestat is open.

Its good to hear that a single pump can be used.

aujopimur

I would advise against any valves etc. that restrict circulation on a solid fuel appliance, as I've said on another post make sure you have an unresticted cold feed teed directly into the stove return in front of the pump.

podge3

aujopimur wrote: »

I would advise against any valves etc. that restrict circulation on a solid fuel appliance, as I've said on another post make sure you have an unresticted cold feed teed directly into the stove return in front of the pump.

Doesn't that mean that the stove will act as a radiator will the the oil burner is on?

heinbloed

Doesn't that mean that the stove will act as a radiator will the the oil burner is on?

Yes. Each warm object radiates heat.

podge3

heinbloed wrote: »

Yes. Each warm object radiates heat.

I really don't want the stove acting as a rad. While some of the heat will remain in the room, I'd say a lot will be going up the chimney.

While every valve, right angle bend, T etc will restrict the water flow a little, I don't think one more valve will make much difference to the overall performance of the system.

DoneDL

As aujopimur says there are parts of the solid fuel pipework that must be unrestricted at all times, if the pipework layout is done properly then the stove will not be heated by the oil fired sysytem.

podge3

DoneDL wrote: »

if the pipework layout is done properly then the stove will not be heated by the oil fired sysytem.

Can this be accomplished without a valve?

Stove Fan

heinbloed wrote: »

Both thermal sources can be linked with 1 pump.

As long as both are installed in the to-be-heated space the thermal energy pumped through the idle thermal source would not be lost.

Stove fan's comment



is simply wrong. There are numerous boilers ( 'boiler stoves' ) around which are designed to be integrated in pressurised plumbing systems. Don't forget that entire Europe has the pressurised water circulation as basic standard.
Most boilers on this globe are designed to be pressurised and to run to at about 3-6 bar, the safety valve kicks in between 6 and 10 bar. Safety valves must come with them, EN certificates as well.
Ireland and the UK are pretty alone in the plumbing field, the 'professionals' hardly more than DIYers with extremly limited knowledge and capeabilities.

Get a heating engineer in, a simple stove installer is hardly able to install a proper hydraulic system. Most believe in myths, basic hydraulic calculations they can't do. But these calculations are necessary.
Get your numbers done, the hydraulic system designed by someone who knows how to calculate pressure and thermal losses, how to integrate the individual parts into a sucesfull heating system.

I don't know of many boiler stoves capable of being fitted on a sealed pressurised system. In europe I have heard that they rely on temperature relief and pressure relief valves and when they release water another valve injects mains cold water into the system to cool the boiler. I always wondered what would happen if the water supply was cut or how the system re introduces a corrosion inhibitor as its being diluted in an overheat situation.

Stove Fan

heinbloed

Re. to the question by Stove Fan:

In europe I have heard that they rely on temperature relief and pressure relief valves and when they release water another valve injects mains cold water into the system to cool the boiler. I always wondered what would happen if the water supply was cut or how the system re introduces a corrosion inhibitor as its being diluted in an overheat situation.

An emergency pressure relief valve should always be employed when installing boilers. If the pump fails, a valve jams or the pipe leading to the attic is frozen/blocked - there should be a safe way. Otherwise a steam explosion could occure.
Standard household steam pots (kitchen equipment) must have at least two safety valves, and these pots contain very little water compared to a boiler.

re.to

In europe I have heard that they rely on temperature relief and pressure relief valves and when they release water another valve injects mains cold water into the system to cool the boiler.

:

The system described here is a steam boiler, a boiler designed to produce steam. Not a standard household boiler designed to produce circulating hot water below boiling point. Steam boilers are used for industrial purposes and sometimes as well for district heating supply, for example in New York.

The water inlet (to pressurise the system) should always be isolated, otherwise there is a risk of polluting the fresh, pressurized water by a kick-back situation. Only for refilling/pressurising the system the filling loop should be connected. Once this is done the filling loop should be disconnected.
Operational pressure changes/losses will be catered for by the expanding barrel.
If the boiler's pressure goes below it's operational design a pressure sensor would be activated. This in turn should switch off the boiler or sound an alarm.

aujopimur

podge3 wrote: »

Doesn't that mean that the stove will act as a radiator will the the oil burner is on?

You can fit non return valves on both boilers

Stove Fan

heinbloed wrote: »

Re. to the question by Stove Fan:


An emergency pressure relief valve should always be employed when installing boilers. If the pump fails, a valve jams or the pipe leading to the attic is frozen/blocked - there should be a safe way. Otherwise a steam explosion could occure.
Standard household steam pots (kitchen equipment) must have at least two safety valves, and these pots contain very little water compared to a boiler.

re.to

:

The system described here is a steam boiler, a boiler designed to produce steam. Not a standard household boiler designed to produce circulating hot water below boiling point. Steam boilers are used for industrial purposes and sometimes as well for district heating supply, for example in New York.

The water inlet (to pressurise the system) should always be isolated, otherwise there is a risk of polluting the fresh, pressurized water by a kick-back situation. Only for refilling/pressurising the system the filling loop should be connected. Once this is done the filling loop should be disconnected.
Operational pressure changes/losses will be catered for by the expanding barrel.
If the boiler's pressure goes below it's operational design a pressure sensor would be activated. This in turn should switch off the boiler or sound an alarm.

Hi Heinbloed,

This is the setup I was referring too in this plumbing in installation of a woodfire boiler stove on a pressurized wet heating system.

http://www.woodfirestoves.co.uk/downloads/woodfire_iseries_freestanding_manual.pdf


What are your thoughts?

Stove Fan:)

podge3

aujopimur wrote: »

You can fit non return valves on both boilers

Would 2 pumps be needed if NRVs are used? NRVs are probably a simpler and safer option if they work.

I now think the 3 port valve I mentioned in my first post is unsuitable. I got one earlier and the ports can be very restricted depending on what the configuration.

So it looks like NRVs or a normally open motorised valve on the stove that closes when the oil boiler is on and the stove is cold.

Anyone ever use a UPS on a stove pump/valve?

heinbloed

@ Stovefan:

An interesting device, thanks for the link.
I Quote from the manual:

The stove is fitted with a copper coil in the boiler which, if the boiler overheats, is flushed with mains cold water,
which is then safely discharged to a drain, taking the excess heat with it. During installation this copper coil
needs to be connected using copper pipe via the tappings at the back of the stove (see illustration) with a
connection to mains cold water and a copper waste water connection. The overheat safety valve comes in a box
with the stove. This valve has a thermostat probe which needs to be installed to one of the thermostat tappings
on the back of the stove (see illustration). The valve regulates the supply of cold water to the overheat coil and
so the cold water feed must be run first through the valve and then into the coil. The mains cold water pressure
must be at least 2 bar and may not exceed 6 bar, with a minimum flow rate of 20 L/min. A water filter should be
installed in front of the cold water intake of the valve.

Here we have a copper coil running through the heating circuit, the water pocket in the boiler.
In this case this copper coil hydraulic is independant, isolated from the circulated water at all times. (The manual could be a bit clearer on this issue.)The water circulating in the central heating system is not in contact with the pressurised water from the mains.
Such an installation should be safe to operate, legal in the EU.
It's the same heating method (or better: cooling method) as with a combi-boiler.
There is also a non-return valve fitted between the fresh water connection and the cooling coil, avoiding thermal syphoning and the dreaded flush-back in case things go wrong.As well as a filter sifting out particles which might get cought in the valve.

The concept sounds very safe.

If installed together with an over-pressure safety valve there should be no problem with it.

I would install at the waste water overheat safety coil ( position No.6 at the last pageof the manual)a sewer pipe or similar as demanded, otherwise there is a risk of flooding the room. Well, still better than a room on fire.

It says further in the manual that enough radiator surface must be installed to take away the created heat, enough to take away at least 20% of the potential thermal energy. With a 12 kW boiler this means at least 2.4 kW of radiators must be open at all times. Set the (thermostat) valves there, make sure that this minimum of thermal energy loss can be guaranteed at all times.

Has this boiler a CE mark, is it build to EN standards ?
Thanks.

podge3

I just found this site: http://www.arca53.dsl.pipex.com/index_files/link.htm

Its simple diagrams outline exactly whats needed.

Would everyone agree that this is the way to do the job?

Stove Fan

heinbloed wrote: »

@ Stovefan:

An interesting device, thanks for the link.
I Quote from the manual:



Here we have a copper coil running through the heating circuit, the water pocket in the boiler.
In this case this copper coil hydraulic is independant, isolated from the circulated water at all times. (The manual could be a bit clearer on this issue.)The water circulating in the central heating system is not in contact with the pressurised water from the mains.
Such an installation should be safe to operate, legal in the EU.
It's the same heating method (or better: cooling method) as with a combi-boiler.
There is also a non-return valve fitted between the fresh water connection and the cooling coil, avoiding thermal syphoning and the dreaded flush-back in case things go wrong.As well as a filter sifting out particles which might get cought in the valve.

The concept sounds very safe.

If installed together with an over-pressure safety valve there should be no problem with it.

I would install at the waste water overheat safety coil ( position No.6 at the last pageof the manual)a sewer pipe or similar as demanded, otherwise there is a risk of flooding the room. Well, still better than a room on fire.

It says further in the manual that enough radiator surface must be installed to take away the created heat, enough to take away at least 20% of the potential thermal energy. With a 12 kW boiler this means at least 2.4 kW of radiators must be open at all times. Set the (thermostat) valves there, make sure that this minimum of thermal energy loss can be guaranteed at all times.

Has this boiler a CE mark, is it build to EN standards ?
Thanks.

Hi:) I see what you mean. The cold feed safety device is like an indirect coil inside the boiler and so seperates the potable water from the heating water.

Yes apparently it is tested to EN 13240
http://www.woodfirestoves.co.uk/stoves/c12.php

I have a traditional open vented villager berkley boiler stove.

Stove Fan:)

podge3

@ heinbloed + Stove Fan - while I appreciate your contribution to this thread, you are gone completely off topic.

I would be grateful of any further comments on my original query.

Stove Fan

podge3 wrote: »

@ heinbloed + Stove Fan - while I appreciate your contribution to this thread, you are gone completely off topic.

I would be grateful of any further comments on my original query.

Hi, sorry for taking your thread off topic.

Your system may be plumbed very different and therefore for safety get a plumber in who is familiar with linking the 2 using non return valves to fit the stove. This isn't a job for the DIY'er. If it's done wrong could lead to your back boiler exploding and possible loss of life.
If you are linking a solid fuel boiler into existing pipework the main points are. Seperate cold feed and vent pipes to boiler stove and oil/gas boiler and a gravity radiator with no valves on the cold feeds or vent pipes. NRV should be on the heating side and not on the vent/feed pipes to the solid fuel stove. Fit a 3 bar safety valve on each boiler flow.

Stove Fan

podge3

Stove Fan wrote: »

therefore for safety get a plumber in who is familiar with linking the 2 using non return valves to fit the stove. This isn't a job for the DIY'er. If it's done wrong could lead to your back boiler exploding and possible loss of life.

Thanks for the advice.

As I mentioned earlier, there is a plumber on-site. He is part of a building firm doing other works associated with the fitting of the stove.

I wouldn't dream of trying to do a job like this as a DIY project. I just want an understanding of the proper/safest way to do the job.

aujopimur

Two pumps + two flap type NRVs.
Motorised have been known to fail/jam in the closed position.

podge3

aujopimur wrote: »

Two pumps + two flap type NRVs.
Motorised have been known to fail/jam in the closed position.

Thanks - my system is almost exactly like diagram 3 in the link: http://www.arca53.dsl.pipex.com/index_files/link.htm

One thing, though, I don't understand the need the need for a second vent pipe? Both systems are linked so will the one not suffice?

podge3

Got my stove installed

The plumber used a second pump and 2 NRVs for the job. He also used a few other bits like safety pressure valve etc.

While I can't light the fire for about a week, the system does appear to be working well when the oil boiler is on i.e. no heat at all back behind the stove NRV.

Thanks for all the advice here - its much appreciated.

podge3

Just thought I'd share a few pics of my completed stove installation.









Its installed about 7 months now and it has hugely reduced my oil consumption. I've used less than one tank of oil this winter and I would have usually used two or three depending on how cold the winter was.

By the end of the "cold" season in a few weeks time I will have burned about a ton of coal and half ton of loose briquettes. I also burned some waste timber I had lying around.

I reckon I saved the best part of €1000 in oil this winter.

I have my my house zoned so I usually heat either the upstairs or downstairs seperately. TBH the stove will not heat the whole house without the help of the oil burner but it will heat one floor without a problem.