Double line conversion

euser1984

Hi,
I want to get a conditioner for my servers to protect them against voltage irregularities etc.

Can anyone recommend an option to do this at a low cost as I'm on a tight budget? I'm currently using 7kW/h.

Thanks.

UDP

euser1984 wrote: »

Hi,
I want to get a conditioner for my servers to protect them against voltage irregularities etc.

Can anyone recommend an option to do this at a low cost as I'm on a tight budget? I'm currently using 7kW/h.

Thanks.

You probably should look at a UPS for this as it does both with the benefit of a soft shutdown in the event of power loss.

Capt'n Midnight

cheapo solution is some used UPS's. As many will still do line condidioning and reporting with the batteries removed. You may even have some already. It's a trade off between budget and reliability.


Cheapo electronic surge protectors start at €70 , but that would be for a 13A line and would need an electrtician to fit so you' be looking at a couple of hundred, IIRC unlike the ones on plugs they don't wear out after a couple of zaps.


In Ireland the ESB supply about 230V , you can monitor with a UPS to see what you are actually getting, brownouts probably aren't a big problem (anyone like to correct me) since most multi-voltage equipment will go right down to about 90V before it complains, the limiting factor being Amps. Even the 220 stuff will will go down quite a bit before it gets really upset , especially if not at max power ratings.

I've seen cheapo UPS's with fried surge protectors (lightening ?)so while good, they can fail too.


As for no budget..
There are 6366 hours in a year.
if your Average is 7Kw then at 20c a unit you would pay €8,912.4 a year, does your load include air conditining ?

I guess you have already looked at ways of merging servers/replacing with more power effecient ones to reduce the load you have to protect, as it may be cheaper than getting the next size up in protection gear


Seriously there are some corners you can't cut because the savings aren't real or the risks are too high.

euser1984

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

cheapo solution is some used UPS's. As many will still do line condidioning and reporting with the batteries removed. You may even have some already. It's a trade off between budget and reliability.


Cheapo electronic surge protectors start at €70 , but that would be for a 13A line and would need an electrtician to fit so you' be looking at a couple of hundred, IIRC unlike the ones on plugs they don't wear out after a couple of zaps.


In Ireland the ESB supply about 230V , you can monitor with a UPS to see what you are actually getting, brownouts probably aren't a big problem (anyone like to correct me) since most multi-voltage equipment will go right down to about 90V before it complains, the limiting factor being Amps. Even the 220 stuff will will go down quite a bit before it gets really upset , especially if not at max power ratings.

I've seen cheapo UPS's with fried surge protectors (lightening ?)so while good, they can fail too.


As for no budget..
There are 6366 hours in a year.
if your Average is 7Kw then at 20c a unit you would pay €8,912.4 a year, does your load include air conditining ?

I guess you have already looked at ways of merging servers/replacing with more power effecient ones to reduce the load you have to protect, as it may be cheaper than getting the next size up in protection gear


Seriously there are some corners you can't cut because the savings aren't real or the risks are too high.

Right I find it really difficult to justify a UPS due to the lack of efficiency - is it really bad for the equipment to suddenly lose power? - given that the server is not necessarily mission critical and the OS is running from memory - live image loaded from USB.

Would a conditioner be ok?

euser1984

What do you think about these actually?

http://cgi.ebay.ie/APC-SUA2200i-Tower-UPS-12-Month-RTB-WTY-New-cells-USB-/180646389214?pt=UK_Computing_Networking_SM&hash=item2a0f5d25de#ht_2969wt_1115

westom

euser1984 wrote: »

... is it really bad for the equipment to suddenly lose power? - given that the server is not necessarily mission critical and the OS is running from memory - live image loaded from USB.

To hardware, all power offs are sudden and unexpected. Hardware does not learn about any power off until voltage starts dropping.

The UPS is mostly for data protection. So that unsaved data can be saved.

Best conditioning should already be inside the server. For example, the server must work and even start up when incandescent bulbs have dimmed to 40% intensity. How often is your voltage dropping that low?

If voltage drops lower, then a server does a normal power off.

UPS will provide constant power during a 'few second' power loss. Therefore the server would not lose time rebooting. But the network would disconnect. Examples of what might be solved.

Reliable server facilities have 'whole house' protection with sufficient or upgraded earthing. Planning guide for Sun Server room explains this:
> Section 6.4.7 Lightning Protection:
> Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted. The plans for the
> data center should be thoroughly reviewed to identify any paths for surge
> entry into the data center. Surge arrestors can be designed into the system
> to help mitigate the potential for lightning damage within the data center.
> These should divert the power of the surge by providing a path to ground
> for the surge energy.

Line conditioning must address the few problems that can overwhelm superior conditioning inside a computer. Earthing a 'whole house' protector and earthing every other incoming wire to the same ground electrode is essential.

euser1984

Ok so you don't think I should have any line conditioning at all then if my PSU is designed for such?

westom

euser1984 wrote: »

Ok so you don't think I should have any line conditioning at all then if my PSU is designed for such?

I'm not quite sure what you are asking. But don't use assumption. Numbers are required to define each anomaly you are 'line conditioning'. Each anomaly is discussed and solved separately. For example, what will address harmonics? Or does that anomaly exist?

ATX Standards for computer supplies define what is already inside that computer. For example, computer power supplies must be designed to make over 1000 volt transients irrelevant. Voltage can drop so low that incandescent bulbs are at 40% intensity. Computer must power up and work even at those low voltages. Two anomalies demonstrated. Every anomaly is discussed and solved separately. No magic box 'line conditioner' exists.

One anomaly that is typically destructive - transients - occurs maybe once every seven years. And probably less often in your venue. A number that can vary significantly even within a town. How often do you have such threats? Neighborhood history exceeding 10 years would be one numeric source.

Again, define each problem before solving it.

euser1984

westom wrote: »

I'm not quite sure what you are asking. But don't use assumption. Numbers are required to define each anomaly you are 'line conditioning'. Each anomaly is discussed and solved separately. For example, what will address harmonics? Or does that anomaly exist?

ATX Standards for computer supplies define what is already inside that computer. For example, computer power supplies must be designed to make over 1000 volt transients irrelevant. Voltage can drop so low that incandescent bulbs are at 40% intensity. Computer must power up and work even at those low voltages. Two anomalies demonstrated. Every anomaly is discussed and solved separately. No magic box 'line conditioner' exists.

One anomaly that is typically destructive - transients - occurs maybe once every seven years. And probably less often in your venue. A number that can vary significantly even within a town. How often do you have such threats? Neighborhood history exceeding 10 years would be one numeric source.

Again, define each problem before solving it.

I don't actually know what threats specifically I'm looking to prevent against.

I just liked the idea of a conditioner taking in whatever the ESB gives it and sending out a reliable stable voltage and current via a normal 50Hz sine wave to the machine.

If the conditioner blows so be it - as long as my servers are protected, I don't mind if they go offline for a while. The conditioner will cost alot less than my servers if I was to go for something like this - http://www.surgexinternational.com/products/sxn1230.html

I have surge protectors on neutral and live in the fusebox (these were expensive as well) but the above surge x seems to provide more features. Can you let me know what you think?

westom

euser1984 wrote: »

If the conditioner blows so be it - as long as my servers are protected, I don't mind if they go offline for a while. The conditioner will cost alot less than my servers if I was to go for something like this - http://www.surgexinternational.com/products/sxn1230.html

Remember how electricity works. From elementary school science, if one wire is incoming and no wire is outgoing, then no current flows. How does a surge current enter and blow a line conditioner without first going out the other side? It doesn't.

First a surge current is incoming from a cloud while simultaneously outgoing to earth via the computer. Long after that current flows, then the line conditioner (and or computer) blows.

Nothing stops a surge. A surge is a current source. That means voltage increases as necessary so that current will still flow. Voltage increases so that current will flow through the conditioner and computer simultaneously.

A protector must do what effective protectors have done for over 100 years. It connects that current low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth outside the building. If energy is not inside a building, then energy is not obtaining earth destructively via servers.

Sun says, "Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted." What are you trying to do? Stop a surge. Cannot happen.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. As Sun says, "by providing a path to ground for the surge energy." A protector is only as effective as what absorbs that energy - single point earth ground. Your fusebox protector is only as effective as the quality and connection to its earth ground. Did you do what is most important? Upgrade single point earth ground.

Transient protection is addressed using a building wide perspective. Every wire inside every incoming cable must be part of that solution.

Makes no sense to protect from problems that do not exist. Most of what is often found on a server's power cord is already done better inside the server.

A 'clean and stable' incoming voltage is converted to a DC voltage that well exceeds 300 volts. Then converted to a high voltage radio wave. IOW anything you might do to make a clean and stable voltage is completely undone inside a computer's supply. Then circuits inside that supply 'clean and stabilize' that ‘intentionally made dirtier' power. Many line conditioners are nothing more than profit centers. Sold to solve problems that do not really exist or were better solved elsewhere for less money.

euser1984

westom wrote: »

Remember how electricity works. From elementary school science, if one wire is incoming and no wire is outgoing, then no current flows. How does a surge current enter and blow a line conditioner without first going out the other side? It doesn't.

First a surge current is incoming from a cloud while simultaneously outgoing to earth via the computer. Long after that current flows, then the line conditioner (and or computer) blows.

Nothing stops a surge. A surge is a current source. That means voltage increases as necessary so that current will still flow. Voltage increases so that current will flow through the conditioner and computer simultaneously.

A protector must do what effective protectors have done for over 100 years. It connects that current low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth outside the building. If energy is not inside a building, then energy is not obtaining earth destructively via servers.

Sun says, "Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted." What are you trying to do? Stop a surge. Cannot happen.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. As Sun says, "by providing a path to ground for the surge energy." A protector is only as effective as what absorbs that energy - single point earth ground. Your fusebox protector is only as effective as the quality and connection to its earth ground. Did you do what is most important? Upgrade single point earth ground.

Transient protection is addressed using a building wide perspective. Every wire inside every incoming cable must be part of that solution.

Makes no sense to protect from problems that do not exist. Most of what is often found on a server's power cord is already done better inside the server.

A 'clean and stable' incoming voltage is converted to a DC voltage that well exceeds 300 volts. Then converted to a high voltage radio wave. IOW anything you might do to make a clean and stable voltage is completely undone inside a computer's supply. Then circuits inside that supply 'clean and stabilize' that ‘intentionally made dirtier' power. Many line conditioners are nothing more than profit centers. Sold to solve problems that do not really exist or were better solved elsewhere for less money.

This very interesting.

Can you clarify how to divert that surge power to ground?

Can you explain what you mean by intentionally made dirty power inside the PSU? Is it dirty because of the high voltage?

westom

euser1984 wrote: »

Can you clarify how to divert that surge power to ground?
Can you explain what you mean by intentionally made dirty power inside the PSU? Is it dirty because of the high voltage?

A protector ... connects that current low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth outside the building. If energy is not inside a building, then energy is not obtaining earth destructively via servers.

You have a fusebox protector. Hopefully it is at least 50,000 amps. That does the diverting IF a connection to earth both meets and exceeds code. How that connection exists is critical. Even sharp wire bends subvert that fusebox protector.

No protector stops, blocks, or absorbs surges. Not one. Either a protector connects as short as possible (ie 'less than 3 meters) to single point earth ground. Or nothing exists to divert to.

Intentionally made dirty. AC mains power is converted to a higher voltage and unregulated DC (no stable AC voltage is necessary). Then is converted to spiky high voltage radio waves (clean sine waves are not necessary). Anything you do to make AC mains power stable and cleaner is simply undone inside every supply. Power supplies are intentionally designed to make power even 'dirtier' (spiky, high, and unregulated voltage) to created a cleanest and most stable low voltage DC.

euser1984

westom wrote: »

You have a fusebox protector. Hopefully it is at least 50,000 amps. That does the diverting IF a connection to earth both meets and exceeds code. How that connection exists is critical. Even sharp wire bends subvert that fusebox protector.

No protector stops, blocks, or absorbs surges. Not one. Either a protector connects as short as possible (ie 'less than 3 meters) to single point earth ground. Or nothing exists to divert to.

Intentionally made dirty. AC mains power is converted to a higher voltage and unregulated DC (no stable AC voltage is necessary). Then is converted to spiky high voltage radio waves (clean sine waves are not necessary). Anything you do to make AC mains power stable and cleaner is simply undone inside every supply. Power supplies are intentionally designed to make power even 'dirtier' (spiky, high, and unregulated voltage) to created a cleanest and most stable low voltage DC.

I'll have to talk to my electrician about the ground and fusebox connector.

In what applications would line conditioners be required then and should I expect any computer power supply to save the computer?

westom

euser1984 wrote: »

In what applications would line conditioners be required then and should I expect any computer power supply to save the computer?

The assumption is that a line conditioner 'saves' something. What are you trying to save or avert? Again. Long before a solution can be implemented, first the problem must be defined.

Line conditioner is a subjective term for most anything. Some line conditioners are nothing more than a $7 power strip protector inside an expensive box with a fancy $8 digital volt meter and selling for $hundreds. Other line conditioners claim to reduce noise. For example, recording studios may need noise reduction superior to what recording equipment already contains. So that line conditioner might be a series mode filter.