Job ads with no salary range

LegacyUser

Maybe some employers out there can answer this.

WHY are there so many ads which don't give an expected salary range? >:(

I'm currently job-hunting (IT sector.) Money is not my main motivation, but at the same time I am not willing to take any jobs below a certain salary. It really frustrates me spending ages tailoring my cover letter and CV to a particular position, when I could very well be wasting my own time and theirs for absolutely no reason.

Anyways my question is - when is it appropriate to ask about the salary? I've applied for a job which I would absolutely love, but I don't know what the salary is. I've been called for interview, but no mention was made of salary. Could I have asked them on the phone? Should I ask in the interview, if they don't mention it?

The industry average for this job could be between 30k-45k, I'm not willing to go below 40k.

(By the way, I have a job already, which pays 40k, and am not short of job offers. However this is definitely the role that interests me the most, by far, and I think I'd be perfect for it. Of course I know some negotiation will be required, but the fact is I'm just not going below 40k no matter how good the job is. So if 40k is not possible for the company, this should be clear in the advert, in my opinion!)

ongarboy

I think that firms don't want to commit to a figure or range in an ad because they could potentially overpay someone who was willing to work for less. Also, they may put off potential excellent applicants if the salary range was too low. If someone wows them in the interview and has fantastic experience, they may well offer a salary above what they had earmarked for the role just to secure the candidate.

I guess they should just say salary negotiable or determined by relevant experience in the ads. Normally, if you are seeking through an agency, the agency will be able to give you those figures. I thought most IT jobs were sourced through agencies anyway.

constantconstance wrote: »

Maybe some employers out there can answer this.

WHY are there so many ads which don't give an expected salary range? >:(

I'm currently job-hunting (IT sector.) Money is not my main motivation, but at the same time I am not willing to take any jobs below a certain salary. It really frustrates me spending ages tailoring my cover letter and CV to a particular position, when I could very well be wasting my own time and theirs for absolutely no reason.

Anyways my question is - when is it appropriate to ask about the salary? I've applied for a job which I would absolutely love, but I don't know what the salary is. I've been called for interview, but no mention was made of salary. Could I have asked them on the phone? Should I ask in the interview, if they don't mention it?

The industry average for this job could be between 30k-45k, I'm not willing to go below 40k.

(By the way, I have a job already, which pays 40k, and am not short of job offers. However this is definitely the role that interests me the most, by far, and I think I'd be perfect for it. Of course I know some negotiation will be required, but the fact is I'm just not going below 40k no matter how good the job is. So if 40k is not possible for the company, this should be clear in the advert, in my opinion!)

Bens

This annoys me big time.
I just ignore anything without a salary range and location on it.
Most people I know ignore them too.
So recruiters and HR people, if you are wondering why you arent getting replies to your ads, then thats the reason.
Why on earth would you want to apply for a job where you didnt know what it was going to pay you?
and putting "salary negotiable or determined by relevant experience" is ignored too, as it still doesnt tell you how much the job pays.
OP, whatever you do dont go in and say "Im not working for less than €40k". Then €40k becomes the absolute highest you have any hope of being offered.

BostonB

Just ignore them . If they can't get that right they'd be a nightmare to work for.

blah

They may just be generic ads put up by recruiters looking to build up a database of available candidates. Then when a real company has a vacancy they can turn around and say "look no further, we've got X qualified candidates ready and waiting".

I'm not saying don't apply for them, just be aware that it might be a more indirect way to a job.

Irish_Elect_Eng

There are several reasons why job adverts do not have money attached to them:

1. Jobs offer different benefits packages that make a direct comparison of the money impossible. For example on job might offer 5k more than another, but the lower paid job might have a company paid pension plan, health insurance and
   
2. For many knowledge based jobs the range is very wide, I have advertised jobs where the based on skills and experience the range was 35-70k, such a wide range serves no purpose in a job ad except to disappointing the candidate if they are offered a salary on the low side of the scale.
   
3. It scares off some candidates, both because it is too low or even too high.

Bens

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

There are several reasons why job adverts do not have money attached to them:

1. Jobs offer different benefits packages that make a direct comparison of the money impossible. For example on job might offer 5k more than another, but the lower paid job might have a company paid pension plan, health insurance and
   
2. For many knowledge based jobs the range is very wide, I have advertised jobs where the based on skills and experience the range was 35-70k, such a wide range serves no purpose in a job ad except to disappointing the candidate if they are offered a salary on the low side of the scale.
   
3. It scares off some candidates, both because it is too low or even too high.

Im an experienced professional in my field.
If you want me to take an interest in your job ad or mailshot then not putting salary details or benefits on it is just going to get it binned.
You might get more desperate, less qualified people, but you wont get the good ones. And you should be putting in the total package in the ad too. Salary + the benefits.

If you're advertising a job looking for an experienced professional and you dont know whether they are going to be paid €35 or 70k for that particular job, you're a joker tbh. Why would anyone be interested.

Of course a low salary scares candidates. Why would they want to apply for a job that pays well below market rates. What are you doing? Trying to get them in the door and lock it behind them so they cant get out when you tell them how low the salary is.
And I've never met anyone scared off by a high salary.

Imagine you sent a mail out to people telling them about this job you have. Very good candidates, probably would be persuaded to apply for the new job and leave their own behind gets the mail in their inbox. Quick scan of the email. Oh, that looks like a job i would be interested in. Does it pay more than where I am? Oh, no salary in the mail. Couldnt be arsed. Delete.

Think of it like a CV landing on your desk. You scan it to see if the info you want to know about the candidate is there. You dont see anything important on the first page. You throw it in the bin.


So you think you have valid reasons for not posting the salary in your ads.
Dont delude yourself. Do this knowing 90% of the good potential applicants are just hitting the delete button on it.
Their time is important to them. And you are just wasting it.

castie

constantconstance wrote: »

Maybe some employers out there can answer this.

WHY are there so many ads which don't give an expected salary range? >:(

I'm currently job-hunting (IT sector.) Money is not my main motivation, but at the same time I am not willing to take any jobs below a certain salary. It really frustrates me spending ages tailoring my cover letter and CV to a particular position, when I could very well be wasting my own time and theirs for absolutely no reason.

Anyways my question is - when is it appropriate to ask about the salary? I've applied for a job which I would absolutely love, but I don't know what the salary is. I've been called for interview, but no mention was made of salary. Could I have asked them on the phone? Should I ask in the interview, if they don't mention it?

The industry average for this job could be between 30k-45k, I'm not willing to go below 40k.

(By the way, I have a job already, which pays 40k, and am not short of job offers. However this is definitely the role that interests me the most, by far, and I think I'd be perfect for it. Of course I know some negotiation will be required, but the fact is I'm just not going below 40k no matter how good the job is. So if 40k is not possible for the company, this should be clear in the advert, in my opinion!)

Usually at the end of interviews they will ask you if you have any questions.
Theres your chance to ask.
Usually they would of asked you first though in the interview.

Irish_Elect_Eng

Bens wrote: »

Im an experienced professional in my field.
If you want me to take an interest in your job ad or mailshot then not putting salary details or benefits on it is just going to get it binned.
You might get more desperate, less qualified people, but you wont get the good ones. And you should be putting in the total package in the ad too. Salary + the benefits.

If you're advertising a job looking for an experienced professional and you dont know whether they are going to be paid €35 or 70k for that particular job, you're a joker tbh. Why would anyone be interested.

Unless we are in a big rush to hire, we hire the right type of people rather than just going by qual/exp which can be misleading as to how productive people will be. The wide salary ranges reflects the fact that we are open to candidates of varying qualifications and experience, I am sure that you would agree that that is appropriate.

Bens wrote: »

Of course a low salary scares candidates. Why would they want to apply for a job that pays well below market rates. What are you doing? Trying to get them in the door and lock it behind them so they cant get out when you tell them how low the salary is.
And I've never met anyone scared off by a high salary.

It does not work like that, any employer that thinks like that will get the people that they deserve. Besides no-one forces anyone to work for less than they deserve, that is a choice. But perhaps I was exaggerating slightly to make a point so I won't dwell on that

Some people are deterred by high salary, as a job advertised with a salary that is higher than the norm carries an implicit expectation of higher experience or qualifications. When we pay highly we are looking for the best people not the greediest,we are not looking for those that will jump to us just because of a couple of thousand,we are looking for those that firstly want to work with us either because of the job or the companies reputation.

Bens wrote: »

Imagine you sent a mail out to people telling them about this job you have. Very good candidates, probably would be persuaded to apply for the new job and leave their own behind gets the mail in their inbox. Quick scan of the email. Oh, that looks like a job i would be interested in. Does it pay more than where I am? Oh, no salary in the mail. Couldnt be arsed. Delete.

That is fine, your personal motivation is the money, and as such I agree, if the money is not listed in the advert then that job would not catch your eye. But as I said above, in general you would not be the type of candidate that we would be looking for to join us.

Bens wrote: »

Think of it like a CV landing on your desk. You scan it to see if the info you want to know about the candidate is there. You dont see anything important on the first page. You throw it in the bin.


So you think you have valid reasons for not posting the salary in your ads.
Dont delude yourself. Do this knowing 90% of the good potential applicants are just hitting the delete button on it.
Their time is important to them. And you are just wasting it.

I accept that you think that we take the wrong approach and I will not claim to have any special knowledge that you do not.

But I have a team of dedicated qualified, experienced people working for me.

Those people were hired through the process that we use, so I am happy with that process because it has delivered the desired results. I am sure it could be better, but I doubt that not having the $$ on the adverts was a key factor for any of those that we hired.

BostonB

Why would the best people not be interested in earning the best they can.

Bens

castie wrote: »

Usually at the end of interviews they will ask you if you have any questions.
Theres your chance to ask.
Usually they would of asked you first though in the interview.

So you think someone will go to an interview without knowing what kind of salary they can expect. Maybe someone who doesnt have a whole lot of other options might, but you certainly wont get anyone already in a good job who is very good at what they do putting up with that.

Bens

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

Unless we are in a big rush to hire, we hire the right type of people rather than just going by qual/exp which can be misleading as to how productive people will be. The wide salary ranges reflects the fact that we are open to candidates of varying qualifications and experience, I am sure that you would agree that that is appropriate.



It does not work like that, any employer that thinks like that will get the people that they deserve. Besides no-one forces anyone to work for less than they deserve, that is a choice. But perhaps I was exaggerating slightly to make a point so I won't dwell on that

Some people are deterred by high salary, as a job advertised with a salary that is higher than the norm carries an implicit expectation of higher experience or qualifications. When we pay highly we are looking for the best people not the greediest,we are not looking for those that will jump to us just because of a couple of thousand,we are looking for those that firstly want to work with us either because of the job or the companies reputation.



That is fine, your personal motivation is the money, and as such I agree, if the money is not listed in the advert then that job would not catch your eye. But as I said above, in general you would not be the type of candidate that we would be looking for to join us.



I accept that you think that we take the wrong approach and I will not claim to have any special knowledge that you do not.

But I have a team of dedicated qualified, experienced people working for me.

Those people were hired through the process that we use, so I am happy with that process because it has delivered the desired results. I am sure it could be better, but I doubt that not having the $$ on the adverts was a key factor for any of those that we hired.

You sound like you live on a different planet tbh.
Just because someone wants to know the terms and conditions before they waste their valuable time going to an interview, doesnt mean they are not motivated.

I think what you are getting are not "People who want to work for you more than they want to know how much the job pays". What you have are "People who are so desperate they will go along to the interview not because it pays, but because its a job".

tbh I think you've been caught out on your previous post and are trying your best to row your way out of a few stupid statements of policy.

Jim2007

Bens wrote: »

So you think you have valid reasons for not posting the salary in your ads.
Dont delude yourself. Do this knowing 90% of the good potential applicants are just hitting the delete button on it.
Their time is important to them. And you are just wasting it.

One reason I can see for leaving salary off, is because while an employer may be willing to pay the new hire a higher salary, the last thing he wants for the other 9 people on the team to start jumping up and down demanding the same!

Another reason would be to filter out a certain type of person that we are not interested in having on board! Employers have different opinions on what makes a good candidate, finding people with the technical skills is aways possible, but finding people with the right temperament and soft skills to build a team on is much harder.

But the main reason for me is that it is just not done here in Switzerland to quote salaries on job ads, and in fact it is illegal in some parts of the country.

Jim.

Irish_Elect_Eng

Bens wrote: »

You sound like you live on a different planet tbh.
Just because someone wants to know the terms and conditions before they waste their valuable time going to an interview, doesnt mean they are not motivated.

I think what you are getting are not "People who want to work for you more than they want to know how much the job pays". What you have are "People who are so desperate they will go along to the interview not because it pays, but because its a job".

tbh I think you've been caught out on your previous post and are trying your best to row your way out of a few stupid statements of policy.

No not really, you are twisting my words a little and you seem to have a very negative perception of employers. I was pointing out why employers do not put the salary on the job advertisement. If a candidate asks what the salary range is for a position they will certainly be told that information.

As a person that interviews and hires people I could reverse the question.

"Why do candidates not indicate their acceptable salary range on their CVs or covering letters?"

Now I think we can all understand many of the reason why they don't and some are very similar to the employers reasons.

Some of my previous comments may be difficult to understand if you believe that money is the primary motivator for performance at work, the truth is that it is not. Sure, not being paid enough is a big demotivator, but money itself ceases to motivate better job performance once the employee is being paid "enough". (Of course what enough is varies from person to person.) Motivating people is one of the hardest things to do as a manager and money is not a very effective tool to use when you are asking people to think harder . It does work to some extent when you are asking people to work harder at manual tasks.

Bens

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

No not really, you are twisting my words a little and you seem to have a very negative perception of employers. I was pointing out why employers do not put the salary on the job advertisement. If a candidate asks what the salary range is for a position they will certainly be told that information.

As a person that interviews and hires people I could reverse the question.

"Why do candidates not indicate their acceptable salary range on their CVs or covering letters?"

Now I think we can all understand many of the reason why they don't and some are very similar to the employers reasons.

Some of my previous comments may be difficult to understand if you believe that money is the primary motivator for performance at work, the truth is that it is not. Sure, not being paid enough is a big demotivator, but money itself ceases to motivate better job performance once the employee is being paid "enough". (Of course what enough is varies from person to person.) Motivating people is one of the hardest things to do as a manager and money is not a very effective tool to use when you are asking people to think harder . It does work to some extent when you are asking people to work harder at manual tasks.

I dont believe money is the primary motivator for a job. Never said that. What I said was that if you want to get someone to take an interest in your job offer that you must give them all the info they need to decide if they are even interested in going further than reading the ad. Salary and benefits is an extremely important part of that decision.

What we are talking about here is getting people interested in going for your vacancy. All these other things you speak of are useless if they just discard your ad/email.

Only HR people or employers cant or dont want to see this.
I work on both sides of the equation. Both trying to hire staff and reading mailshots sent to me about jobs, when I feel like a move.

When I feel like a move I go to agencies and I say "Dont get back to me about anything that doesnt pay between x and y". This filters out the jokers for me. And I dont know anyone who is any different to me.

BostonB

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

...Motivating people is one of the hardest things to do as a manager and money is not a very effective tool to use when you are asking people to think harder . It does work to some extent when you are asking people to work harder at manual tasks.

I don't get any of that tbh. Money is effective. Its ubiquitous as a motivational device. Doesn't matter if its manual tasks or not. But motivation really isn't the issue.

Its a waste of everyone's time to going for a job that doesn't pay you enough money. Its that simple. For every job advert that doesn't list a salary and pays a decent level theres 20 that don't.

Irish_Elect_Eng

I know that it may be counter-intuitive but it is true that for knowledge based jobs that not only is money not a motivator beyound the fulfilment of basic needs it canactually be a demotivator.

This short vid based on Daniel Pink's excellent book DRIVE illustrates my point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

*Worth a watch for the white-board animation alone :-)

Bens

BostonB wrote: »

I don't get any of that tbh. Money is effective. Its ubiquitous as a motivational device. Doesn't matter if its manual tasks or not. But motivation really isn't the issue.

Its a waste of everyone's time to going for a job that doesn't pay you enough money. Its that simple. For every job advert that doesn't list a salary and pays a decent level theres 20 that don't.

I think he's looking for people who dont care what they will be paid - desperate people. His not revealing the salary will work for them, but he wont be attracting anyone who knows they can command x salary, because x is never revealed until they waste their time first.

BostonB

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

....money not a motivator beyound the fulfilment of basic needs it canactually be a demotivator....

That video and your comment actually make the same point we are. It says it in the middle. You need enough money to fulfill your basic needs, before money stops being a motivator. You have no way of know if a job advert does that if it doesn't list the salary. Such an ad fails that basic requirement.

If that works for you, fine. But the idea that such an ad will attract the best people is flawed in my opinion. Even the people who are not motivated by money need money to survive. If you have your time wasted by a couple of similar ads, no one is going to see yours as different to the rest. Not knowing what salary other people is on in a company is a whole different subject. But its usually a means to save a company money, and thus I'd view a job advert with no salary in the same light.

But hey if it works for you then thats all that matters.

Irish_Elect_Eng

Bens wrote: »

I think he's looking for people who dont care what they will be paid - desperate people. His not revealing the salary will work for them, but he wont be attracting anyone who knows they can command x salary, because x is never revealed until they waste their time first.

Far from it.

The people that we employ are experienced professionals, who usually have a job when we are recruiting/headhunting them (Our industry has not been hugely impacted by the recession), they are rarely desperate, and are usually interviewing with us because they want to move to our industry or have been attracted by our companies reputation. We have a reputation of paying well, so perhaps that is why no putting the salary on our adverts does not have an negative impact on the quality of the applicants that we interview.

I think you are trolling a little with the tone of your comments, trying to see the negative in my comments based on your own world view, my world view is quiet different. I have worked up through all the different levels of the industry that I am in from entry level to management, so in general I understand the needs of my employees, their day 2 day difficulties and what motivates them. Now I will admit that I cannot claim to know what gets people out of bed in other professions, but I know my own pretty well.

I employ people to be part of a tight team, it makes no sense that I would try to hire people at a salary that would leave them dissatisfied as I then would not have a productive team. Everything that I achieve at work is based on my team's achievements, if they fail I fail:eek:, if they are successful, I am successful:).

Irish_Elect_Eng

BostonB wrote: »

That video and your comment actually make the same point we are. It says it in the middle. You need enough money to fulfill your basic needs, before money stops being a motivator. You have no way of know if a job advert does that if it doesn't list the salary. Such an ad fails that basic requirement.

If that works for you, fine. But the idea that such an ad will attract the best people is flawed in my opinion. Even the people who are not motivated by money need money to survive. If you have your time wasted by a couple of similar ads, no one is going to see yours as different to the rest. Not knowing what salary other people is on in a company is a whole different subject. But its usually a means to save a company money, and thus I'd view a job advert with no salary in the same light.

But hey if it works for you then thats all that matters.

I agree that the basic need must be met,without a doubt.

Our points of view are not that far apart.

But as I said below, we have a reputation of paying well, so perhaps that is why no putting the salary on our adverts does not have an negative impact on the quality of the applicants that we interview.

So any person applying for a position with us the salary is implicitly at the going rate + percentage. Many of our applicants are also familiar with the company through industry contacts, Ireland is a small country :-) or have done their homework and it is an industry in which they want to work,an industry that pays well and offers security.

BostonB

Then can I suggest your company is not typical.

not even wrong

The real problem isn't job ads with no salary range, it's employers padding job ads with unrealistic requirements that they don't intend to pay for.

If you only have a 30k to spend on a new hire then don't ask for "Masters or Phd, with 10 years experience with technologies X, Y and Z", that just wastes both of our time.

Why do they do this? Do they think they'll just get lucky with someone who's desperate or doesn't know the going rate?

BostonB

Thats one for another thread.

Irish_Elect_Eng

not even wrong wrote: »

The real problem isn't job ads with no salary range, it's employers padding job ads with unrealistic requirements that they don't intend to pay for.

If you only have a 30k to spend on a new hire then don't ask for "Masters or Phd, with 10 years experience with technologies X, Y and Z", that just wastes both of our time.

Why do they do this? Do they think they'll just get lucky with someone who's desperate or doesn't know the going rate?

On a related note, as someone that is hiring not,is is hard replying to some of the superbly educated applicants, basically telling them that they are overqualified. Many of the job agencies are not reading the job descriptions and sending post grads to interviews for interviews for unsuitable jobs. I no longer accept Phd,.grads for entry level engineering interviews.

geecee

Jim2007 wrote: »

One reason I can see for leaving salary off, is because while an employer may be willing to pay the new hire a higher salary, the last thing he wants for the other 9 people on the team to start jumping up and down demanding the same!

I have been recruiting people to join my team for months - and the reason above is exactly why we don't publish the salary range.

My frustration is the opposite to the OP.
We ask the question in the Ad "Please State your salary expectation"

And yet only 1 from 3 applicants answers this mandatory question properly.
Typical answers are: "Negotiable", "Depends on experience", "Unimportant"

People that don't answer with a number are immediately ruled our for me... as it means they either have no attention to detail or are not decisive... these are not desirable qualities for suitable candidates.

BostonB

It likewise rules out employers for me. It suggests a lack of transparency. Or an agency trawling.

LimeFruitGum

I think it is rather hasty for jobseekers to write off an otherwise potential job just because the salary info is not there.

If you're interested in a job, there is nothing stopping you from contacting the company/agency beforehand to enquire what the salary bracket is.

Now, I am currently recruiting for three positions. More than likely, the successful candidates will be not be paid exactly the same salary for the exact same job because one of them is bound to be more experienced than the others and that will have to be reflected in the salary.
I would certainly expect an experienced candidate to push for the most amount possible; that's just business. It depends on how much budget we have for it, but if a candidate stands out and would work well with us, then we don't want to lose them.

Another reason is that a company may not want to list a job's salary band online because their employees may see it and could cause a bit of an aul ruction ;-)