Cheap 4x4 for Winter Driving

Zagato

Am considering buying a 4x4 to have for winter driving on country roads, should we get similar conditions again this year.
Have an automatic RWD car and it is very difficult to drive safely on roads that are low-priority for gritting.

Was thinking of spending 3-5 grand on a 4x4 that would preferably be diesel, and would be useful, but not absolute, that it have rear seats. Then I'll transfer tax/insurance too it while the weather is bad, and back again in the spring.

So from having a look around, was thinking Nissan Terrano, or Hyundai Santa Fe/Sportage, although a SWB Landcruiser for the money would look nicer!

Anyway just wanted to see is there anything else I need to be looking at. I suppose the main thing is that it be fairly reliable.

101sean

Any of them should be fairly reliable, make sure it has a decent set of tyres, probably the biggest expense on a 4x4 (after a DMF clutch :rolleyes:)

I don't know if it's a consideration but private road tax won't be cheap especially if over 2.5l. Majority of Land Cruisers and big 4x4s will be commercial farm or builder hacks, if you look around and road tax isn't a worry, you may find a good passenger one for not too much as there's not so much demand for them.

9935452

Consider a 3.1 Trooper. Bullit proof. Lad up the road has a 97 one with 450k miles on the clock and no major problems. Chap i work for had a 92 2.8 with 199k on the clock and we know for a fact she was clocked twice before he got it. Never burnt a drop of oil.

visual

Suzuki samurai or something along that line with good AT tires would be ideal, cheap on tax and insurance and to run....

and if you wanted to go off road they are very capable and cheap to modify

you won't be able to transfer tax...

greysides

No point having a decent 4X4 rotting away for 6 months of the year unused. A Suzuki as suggested above would fit the bill, not cost much and not be a great loss when the weather and lack of use get to it.

Maybe an older Hilux pick up..... Series III Land Rover....Mk I Pajero (imported ones may be quite comfortable and not with stellar milage).

Fishtits

Truth be known, once it starts snowing, you will pay silly amounts for crocked 4x4s. I reckoned it took 3 hours to sell a 4x4 during the snow last year.

Get moving now.

Fishtits... been there done that.

Solnskaya

Get a sangyong Musso. No, seriously, get a Musso. I bought one as a work hack, expecting a ball of 5hite, and apart from servicing it, not a tick has it missed. There's a new model Pajero out in the yard as well, and the Musso would pull the paj around the yard for sport as well as leaving it for dead on the motorway. Better still, they are almost for free as everyone says they are crap.(A diesel mechanic friend of mine who is a genius with seriously heavy plant and trucks told me that the Musso has one of the best diesel motors going). They are also very comfy to drive, very surefooted and go like a train.

Slidey

It is the old 5cyl engine that was fitted to the first generation of Mercedes Sprinters.

I think they even have a sticker 'Licensed by Mercedes-Benz' on the engine.

visual

Are they 2 wheel drive ?

101sean

No, big Korean made 4x4 with slightly strange styling (but not as bad as a Rexton or Rodius!)

dev100

I have a 2.5pajero sport its an alco on the juice. Got it for the bad weather knowing my luck itll never come:). I have my eye on a tidy suzuki grand vitari 2ltr tdi when it comes up for sale.

dev100

Zagato wrote: »

Am considering buying a 4x4 to have for winter driving on country roads, should we get similar conditions again this year.
Have an automatic RWD car and it is very difficult to drive safely on roads that are low-priority for gritting.

Was thinking of spending 3-5 grand on a 4x4 that would preferably be diesel, and would be useful, but not absolute, that it have rear seats. Then I'll transfer tax/insurance too it while the weather is bad, and back again in the spring.

So from having a look around, was thinking Nissan Terrano, or Hyundai Santa Fe/Sportage, although a SWB Landcruiser for the money would look nicer!

Anyway just wanted to see is there anything else I need to be looking at. I suppose the main thing is that it be fairly reliable.

Unless its snow covered roads your driving in. A jeep will be the same as a car on ice no matter what anyone says. You wont be able to transfer tax. Have you far to travel to work ? If so the bigger jeeps will be thirsty. Anything over 2.5 ltr will be over 900 and 3ltr landcruiser will be over 1200 to tax i think If you going for commerical depending on where you live and if you a paye worker you may have to pay private tax.

A suzuki grand vitara 2ltr tdi would be a nice little jeep

Solnskaya

dev100 wrote: »

Unless its snow covered roads your driving in. A jeep will be the same as a car on ice no matter what anyone says. You wont be able to transfer tax. Have you far to travel to work ? If so the bigger jeeps will be thirsty. Anything over 2.5 ltr will be over 900 and 3ltr landcruiser will be over 1200 to tax i think If you going for commerical depending on where you live and if you a paye worker you may have to pay private tax.

A suzuki grand vitara 2ltr tdi would be a nice little jeep

Not really true. When it snows, our business becomes clearing snow from our clients premises to keep them operating. Last winter snow, the rear-wheel drive vans were just parked up cos they were useless, the front wheel drives kept moving but were well able to slide around, The two 4wd's just drove on regardless, even when it was really bad on the rural back-roads where I live. Without the jeeps, we would not have got to work at all. Strangly enough, a 01 landcruiser(lwb)that I had was totally helpless in the snow, just slid and slipped around. The paj and the musso were very sure-footed and all were wearing just regular tyres, although I'm a tyre freak and all had new/very nearly new tyres on. I've upped the ante this winter to add more snow clearing capacity-last winter when it was bad, machines just could not be hired for love nor money and a lot of businesses lost a lot of money with vehicles stuck in yards, etc.

dev100

Solnskaya wrote: »

Not really true. When it snows, our business becomes clearing snow from our clients premises to keep them operating. Last winter snow, the rear-wheel drive vans were just parked up cos they were useless, the front wheel drives kept moving but were well able to slide around, The two 4wd's just drove on regardless, even when it was really bad on the rural back-roads where I live. Without the jeeps, we would not have got to work at all. Strangly enough, a 01 landcruiser(lwb)that I had was totally helpless in the snow, just slid and slipped around. The paj and the musso were very sure-footed and all were wearing just regular tyres, although I'm a tyre freak and all had new/very nearly new tyres on. I've upped the ante this winter to add more snow clearing capacity-last winter when it was bad, machines just could not be hired for love nor money and a lot of businesses lost a lot of money with vehicles stuck in yards, etc.

The landcruisers have a permanent 4 wheel drive system. My mate has one He did tell me there is a reason why they aint great in snow . Yes jeeps are far better and well suited for snow conditions. I did make that the point but if its for icy conditions, It doesnt make much of a difference you will slide no matter what

murphhy

Honestly you would want to be crazy to go out and buy a 4x4 just to deal with a few inches of snow n ice that we will get over the winter...a front wheel drive car with stock wheels and maybe winter or snow tyre's if you feel like splashing out will be sufficient for the majority of people....once you know how to properly drive in those conditions there is very few places that you wont be able to go.

DoneDL

If you are after a cheap reliable 4x4 I liked our Terrano which we had to bin because of the 28 mpg. It doesn`t get a good press but the only problem we had in four years was a flat tyre.

dev100

murphhy wrote: »

Honestly you would want to be crazy to go out and buy a 4x4 just to deal with a few inches of snow n ice that we will get over the winter...a front wheel drive car with stock wheels and maybe winter or snow tyre's if you feel like splashing out will be sufficient for the majority of people....once you know how to properly drive in those conditions there is very few places that you wont be able to go.

Depends where you live and where you work .... If you live in the middle of a town which accesses a main road to a big town or city you shouldnt need one. Careful driving should suffice. If you live in a rural area high ground where councils have no interest in gritting or ploughing the roads your left to your own devices to get around.



I suffered the last two winters. Hence I got one.

murphhy

dev100 wrote: »

Depends where you live and where you work .... If you live in the middle of a town which accesses a main road to a big town or city you shouldnt need one. Careful driving should suffice. If you live in a rural area high ground where councils have no interest in gritting or ploughing the roads your left to your own devices to get around.



I suffered the last two winters. Hence I got one.

I do live in a rural area where the roads are not gritted...many of my neighbours were stuck in there houses but i'm able to drive in the snow and ice so was able to get around. Once don't spin the wheels you can get to most places....i made it up the knockmealdown mountains without getting stuck once and at that time i only had a 1.4 polo

Solnskaya

murphhy wrote: »

I do live in a rural area where the roads are not gritted...many of my neighbours were stuck in there houses but i'm able to drive in the snow and ice so was able to get around. Once don't spin the wheels you can get to most places....i made it up the knockmealdown mountains without getting stuck once and at that time i only had a 1.4 polo

I agree to a point-in the last snow I used to take out my rwd merc just for fun because it was just a blast to powerslide around on the deserted roads(I actually love driving in the snow and ice), but, if you have a heavy trailer to lug to work, or a shedload of equipment to shift, it's another story, and for trailer work in the snow, a good 4*4 is essential. Vans just sit helplessly and spin the wheels.

greysides

Solnskaya wrote: »

Strangly enough, a 01 landcruiser(lwb)that I had was totally helpless in the snow, just slid and slipped around.

That's what I drive, a 3 litre TD. I had no problems in compacted snow. Mind you, I took it easy. I drove it as normal. I found the turning circle was larger with the centre diff locked. I believe there is an advantage to having the diff locked for braking on slippery surfaces. I kept it slow so as not to find out.
The interval between the two snows when the first lot started melting left driving conditions more like deep sloppy mud and the ruts it formed were the most problematic conditions I encountered.

skippey

If you don't mind the length consider a older model mitzi l200 crew cab not so bad to insure ,it has back seats and tax is cheap but not great on mpg (about 25-30mpg)
I have one for a while now and live in a hilly twisty road that completely froze over with ice for weeks on end last year it was one of the few vehicles that constantly made it around the area during the ice . No car made it up the hill and many 4x4 also struggled
I spent most of my time pulling people out of ditches and up the hill
To be honest it won't matter what vehicle you have if your not experienced in driving in these conditions as a good driver in a fwd car with winter Tyres would have no prob getting to most places he wanted to go
Stick it into 4wd and it'll go anywhere
To get a bit of experience go off road with a few buds and you'll soon start learning after getting stuck a few times

Zagato

Thanks everyone for the replies.
Obviously as you say I can't switch the tax, but I would probably just tax it for 3-4months of the year.

I think you're dead right that I would need to move now, of I want to get any value.

The main issue with the winter driving is on the compacted snow, where having a RWD car is a pain, with no weight over the driving wheels. Had been borrowing a FWD last year and it was reasonably fine, but won't have that this year. One of my mates popped a few bags of fertiliser into the boot of his BMW last winter, which helped his grip, but I wouldn't like to be explaining that to the Gardai, if you're stopped in town at a checkpoint:D

Thanks for the tips -I think that a 2.0 Diesel is probably the way to go alright.

greysides

How about a Subaru Forrester as the everyday car? Or a VW golf/passat 4motion?

visual

The most suitable vehicles for carrying you and your family about on ice and snow are
Grand Cherokee, Range Rover, later model Discoveries. These are all too expensive on motor tax but if only taxed for part of the year might be a option.
But the most important part no matter what vehicle you get is having the correct tyre's

Irish Steve

Having had an Isuzu TFS Crew cab pickup for the last 8 years, I can say very clearly that with a cover on the back to add a bit of weight, and even with the standard Yokohama summer tyres on it, in 4WD it goes anywhere, without drama, and as long as I'm not trying to do 120Kph on the motorway (It will do that without drama, just a bit more expensive), mine will turn in mid 30 to the gallon on local type driving that includes some narrow slow lanes, some reasonable roads, and a bit of motorway around the Dublin area.

In snow or ice, it goes into 4WD and stays there until it thaws, and that has successfully ended 99% of the dramas that seemed to be endemic to many other drivers around Meath, and I had no problems at all up round the Dublin mountain foothills at the back of Tallaght even when most other things were not moving. The hills over towards Naul and Garristown don't get a lot of attention from gritters, and the "Isle of Man shadow" ( for more details see the weather forum ) meant that at times there was a lot more snow up there than in some other areas. On dry roads, it has to come out of 4WD pretty quick, as it doesn't have a centre differential, so the 4WD is only intended for use in slippery conditions, on dry surfaces with big tyres it will get locked up if it's out of a straight line very quickly, and possibly do damage.

Mine is the 2.5 Turbo diesel version that preceded the Denver. and one of the nice aspects of that engine is that it's one of the very few diesels still available that doesn't have a timing belt and all the costs associated with changing the wretched things every X miles.

It has alloy wheels with wide tyres, 245/70/16, and that is a big help on badly potholed back lanes, it goes over most that other vehicles hit hard.

The heater is OK, the radio/CD is OK, it has electric windows, and mine has central locking with an alarm, so it's not completely basic, although there's no Air conditioning, which hasn't been an issue.

All in all, while I don't abuse it, I have done some serious heavy weight towing on occasions, without hassle, albeit the lock for reversing trailers is poor, but that's down to planning and towing technique.

In terms of maintenance, apart from regular filters, oil changes brake pads and tyres and a couple of batteries, the only other things it's had are a set of fan belts, a set of rear spring bushes, a couple of steering bushes and CV Boots, and a new rear box this summer after the pipe broke, which with over 100,000 miles on it I reckon is a good performance.

There seem to be some used versions about, they were popular with builders, and we all know what happened to the construction industry!

It's not a long distance vehicle for the rear seat passengers, space is a bit tight, the legroom isn't brilliant, and the seats are low, and not everyone likes the front seat positions, for the same reasons, but as far as I'm concerned, it has more than served the purposes I bought it for, after a massive flood at our house in 2002, I needed something that could pretend to be a submarine in an emergency, and if handled right, it will (has) run through a foot of water with no hassles at all, and would probably go through deeper with care.

Oh yeah, before anyone asks, mine is NOT for sale yet, I have no intention of parting with it until I retire in a few years time, it's got me out of way too many situations to even consider parting with it at the moment.

Hope that helps

Steve

_Conrad_

Irish Steve wrote: »

Nice little review

That was nicely done. I like the old tfs myself.
And that was a nices, reasoned and selsible review of one.

In relation to someone saying a 01 landcruiser was bad in snow.... You're doing it wrong. Unless there were enormously differences between a 99 and 01 model or you had completely bald tyres or something then you shoudl ahve had nothing to fear in a landcruiser. I did a lot of miles in a 99 3.0td LWB manual one over the last two winters and nothing stopped it. I'd say almost every day i was pulling out stuck cars and the snow meant nothing to it. It handled most roads fine in 4H and i rarely had to slow right down and use the 4L range

Zagato

Irish Steve wrote: »

The hills over towards Naul and Garristown don't get a lot of attention from gritters, and the "Isle of Man shadow" ( for more details see the weather forum ) meant that at times there was a lot more snow up there than in some other areas.

This is exactly where I'm thinking of

vibe666

visual wrote: »

But the most important part no matter what vehicle you get is having the correct tyre's

i can't stress this enough. the best 4x4 in the world will be useless to you without the correct rubber on the wheels.

i had a land cruiser following me in my 96 pajero up a steep snow covered hill in the worst of the weather last year, weaving in and out of stuck abandoned cars and he ended up getting stuck whilst i didn't even lose traction once, even tho i'd consider an LC to be a better 4x4 than the Paj, simply because he (most likely) had half bald summer road tyres on and mine had a set of BF Goodrich All Terrain TA KO's.

tbh, you could probably forget about a 4x4 altogether and just invest in a new set of steel wheels fitted with good winter tyres for your current motor and possibly (if it gets really bad) some snow chains as a back-up (making sure you know how & when to use them first) on the off chance you do get stuck out in the middle of nowhere.

once the temps start to drop, get your local garage (or yourself if you're up for it) to swap out your wheels and leave the summer ones in your shed till it warms up enough to swap back again. that way they will last you several years too.

Irish Steve

This is exactly where I'm thinking of

If so, the TFS is no hassle, I was in Balbriggan last winter on one of "those" days, and I'd gone over via Swords, which was an evil journey due to packed snow and a number of people that just had no clue how to handle the conditions. Later in the afternoon, it had got a lot worse, and I had to decide if I was going to go back the same way, with the possible (probable) liklihood of an even worse journey, or go over the top.

In the end, I went over the top. The normal time for that journey is 30 minutes, and with a mixture of packed, frozen and fresh snow on the ground, I got home in 40 minutes without so much as a moment's anxiety or hassle.

In fact, it was a fun journey, albeit that I have had a lot more experience driving in snow than most, we moved over from Somerset, and Exmoor and the Blackdown hills were a favourite for snow when it was only raining lower down, so I got more than some experience driving in snow in things like a Ford Anglia (Yeah, that's really giving my age away now), and that was in the days of cross ply tyres and rear wheel drive, so some serious weight in the back was mandatory, as was snow chains in the worst days.

Even with the TFS, It's worth putting a bit of extra weight in the back during serious snow conditions, and the cheapest option is either a couple of bags of rock salt, or gravel chippings, either of which can be useful in the event of a real bog down scenario, and much easier to explain than a couple of bags of fertiliser IF you don't want to risk bags leaking, then some concrete blocks are an acceptable alternative, and they don't leak.

Best of luck finding one, or something similar.

Steve

vibe666

the other thing is, that it's now looking as though for the most part, this winter isn't going to be all that bad compared to the last two and certainly not the mini ice-age that has been predicted by the tabloid media: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056419308

just fore reference, most people in the weather forum would follow M.T.'s predictions more closely than anyone on the planet as historically speaking his predictions for the winter weather have been far more accurate than any other source online or offline.