Bilingual state, mar dhea?

ildaite

Hi all,

This is something I've been thinking about for a while. If you look at our constitution, Irish is the first language, English the second. I know that de facto, the opposite is the case in most areas, of course. Gaeilge and it's future is really important to me, and I believe that unless people use the language, it may indeed become useless. Soo, I resolved to throw the odd cupla focail in here and there in my everyday life, which is grand and most people find it quite fun, and it's infectious

However, it's a whole other story when I go out shopping or something. The past two nights I've gone down to my local shop and approached the counter, with the intention of saying "dia dhuit", "go raibh maith agat", and "slán" to the person at the counter.

Two things struck me.

Firstly, I was NERVOUS. I was worried that the person behind the counter would think I was either an idiot or pretentious and affected. Nervous about speaking a language it is my constitutional right to speak? I'm not bilingual, but I love and WANT to speak Irish.

Secondly, when I spoke to them (both young Irish people, like myself, with 14 years of Irish each I'd imagine) neither replied in Irish. I mean, not even "dia 's mire duit", or "slán"! Now maybe I'm just a total zealot, (and i'm not!) but I find this nuts and a little depressing. Also, shouldn't I have a right to avail of services as Gaeilge, given that it's the first language of our country? I mean, it's a sad state of affairs if people even refuse to greet me as gaeilge when I do so. I really think that employers should make sure to have some people on their staff can speak Irish with reasonable enough competence.


Irish is only useless when people don't use it, and given my experiences I don't feel comfortable using it, and I imagine many others would feel the same. How can a language stand a chance when there is such resistance to its use by people who are certainly capable of using it, to some extent anyway? This attitude could be dissuading people from using the language more frequently, which means their own command of the language slips as they become out of practice and they lose confidence, making them less likely to speak. Vicious circle.

Should Irish-educated employees be expected by their employers to be able to provide services as Gaeilge, or at least respond to basic requests and greetings? (With 14 years of Irish at school, I don't think it's a big ask to be able to say "dia dhuit".) In a country where Irish is constitutionally enshrined as the first language, I think YES.

Apologies for the long post, and if I sound like a raving ol' nutter, but I just want to see if anyone out there has thought the same thing.

deise go deo

I know where you are comming from, I would never atempt to use Irish in an ordaniry shop because the odds of actually getting someone who speaks Irish are very low, however if I was in the Gaeltacht, or dealing with a state body then I would always speak Irish as its reasonable to expect that they can cater for doing business as Gaeilge.

Some places, Galway City especially have campaigns to get business to use Irish, there are a good few resturants in Galway City where you can talk Irish to the staff for example. Sadly this is not the case in most areas.

Aard

Your right to use a language is pretty much confined to, as said above, public services. You can't expect a private company to extend the same luxury. It's about demand really -- if there's no demand for an Irish speaker... there won't be one. I know that in Brussels, pretty much anybody in a customer-facing role is expected to have French, Dutch and English (or at least two of them). But that's because all three languages are heard around town all the time. Let's not kid ourselves that Irish is a widely-used language.

In your case of the staff not responding in Irish... maybe they were equally nervous and concerned about appearing pretentious and affected. Or maybe they didn't speak it at all. They might have just been surprised and couldn't find the words.

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing I'd love more than to be able to go into a shop in Dublin and have a little exchange in Irish. But then I think of the times I was up in the Donegal Gaeltacht and they wouldn't speak Irish to me there either... I content myself with speaking Irish with family or friends, and just accept that English is the lingua franca of the city.

An gal gréine

It's true to say that native speakers, now and again, get frustrated listening to people constantly struggling with Irish to them, and so they switch to English, for everybody's benefit, they feel. If you have fluency then you should just press ahead and they'll realise that they dont have to repeat themselves endlessly.

General Michael Collins

Keep plugging away a chara. It could be several hundred years before we get the bilingual state -- we're too quick to criticize. However, there is a responsibility for the government and it is this : to make Irish necessary. In other words, the simplest plan there could possibly be. We need to reverse the movement that took English to the first language status, using the same/ similar techniques to the Brits. When Irish becomes necessary people will speak it, when it's spoken it will be demanded, when it's demanded, private business will be quick to follow suit.

deirdremf

General Michael Collins wrote: »

Keep plugging away a chara. It could be several hundred years before we get the bilingual state -- we're too quick to criticize. However, there is a responsibility for the government and it is this : to make Irish necessary. In other words, the simplest plan there could possibly be. We need to reverse the movement that took English to the first language status, using the same/ similar techniques to the Brits. When Irish becomes necessary people will speak it, when it's spoken it will be demanded, when it's demanded, private business will be quick to follow suit.

But before they do that, they need to make Irish available:
provide services in Irish, available on demand
provide Irish-language education on demand
provide a full Irish-language TV station
all public services in the Gaeltacht to be in Irish
all public services catering for the Gaeltacht to be in Irish on demand

All services provided over the phone or on the internet should be available in Irish. This would be quite easily done by each public body setting up an office in the Gaeltacht with completely Irish speaking staff, catering to the whole country (i.e. to all Irish speakers in the country).
As there are Irish speakers in all public bodies, the idea here would be to bring them together where they can provide services that are needed, instead of the situation at present where Irish speaking staff are spread out in all sections of the organisations, and doing jobs unrelated to the Irish-speaking public.
It wouldn't require any new staff, just a reorganisation of what is presently available.
Having the offices in the Gaeltacht would strengthen the Gaeltacht, too, rather than taking people out of the Gaeltacht. There would be lots of benefits arising from this.

muineachan

I had to laugh at this post, it could have been written by me. I use the cupla focal everyday with friends with the words and phrases we all know. And your right it's great fun and now all my friends are doin it! but last year I made a point to start using Irish first in all situations, ie shops, an then revert to English and I felt like you I became nervous and I didn't know why, I was really shy about it until I just started English again. There is a real stigma around using it, and I don't know why we are embarrassed but we shouldn't be!

I can only really echo what you say, it's only useful I people use it. But I do think it's on the people, when the people use it then the companies will. We've enough rules passed down from government about Irish, but more should be done by the people to use it. Companies will follow whatever is profitable, if people use Irish phoning a company then they will get speakers in. The problem is they don't, because Irish speakers will in general start conversations in English unless they know the person, so the company thinks everything's grand.

We as people who care about Irish should start using it with pride, it's not pretentious or elitist, although anti Irish people will claim this, it is infact just people using a language they speak.

Gaeilge abú!

whatthefeck

Hi ildaite,

What a great post, I think you have expressed what a lot of other people feel regarding Irish.
I think this should be the beginning of a nationwide campaign for salutations in Irish in Shops and Pubs etc.

You reminded me of my visit to Cunnemara this summer. I thought wouldn't it be nice if shop staff used some Irish salutations (/followed by English translation). But then I though I was being idealist or romantic rather than practical. Although when Burke's Bar Clonbur I have never heard so much Irish been spoken. Being asked in Irish if my partner wanted a bottle of wine or a glass kind of freaked her out and she felt embarrassed not being able to speak the language but did manage a go raibh maith agat. and she vowed to learn

I think tourists like like being reminded they are visiting somewhere different. What could be a greater distinction that language.


ádh mór ort!

Schapiro

I agree with so much of this. I've been very eager to use Irish as often as I can. Use of the language in public (as well as at home) is so critical to its survival. Even in the simplest senses-the cúpla focail thrown here or there. No matter how poor or good one's Irish it is, it is the use of it that will keep the language alive. You can educate children year after year, you can claim its status as official, but unless its being used all of that is nearly fruitless. To quote Ellis and mac a' Ghobhainn..
"A language cannot be saved by singing a few songs or having a word printed on a postage stamp. It cannot even be saved by getting 'official status' for it, or getting it taught in schools. It is saved by its use (no matter how imperfect), by its introduction and use in ever walk of life and at every conceivable opportunity until it becomes a natural thing, no longer laboured or false. It means in short, a period of struggle and hardship. There is no easy route to the restoration of a language." (from The Problem of Language Revival)

One may claim that that is idealist and romanticist, that Irish should be used everywhere (understand I'm not saying that everyone should speak it, all the time, but that its use should be available and present in as many situations as possible) but it is in fact the absolute truth of the matter.

I think that the more people use it, whether their irish is good or bad, the easier it will be for people to get past the stigmas attached to it and over the intimidating road blocks that many of us are faced with when it comes to using it. I face this situation all the time, and find myself hesitating to use it even when in the Gaeltacht, for fear of being an annoyance or coming off as pretentious. But by not using it I'm only contributing to the struggle. When I keep that in mind it becomes a bit easier to climb over those road blocks.

So that's my two pence I don't have a solution for the problem other than to, very simply, use it despite the stigmas and difficulties, but be careful not to feed into them (i.e. don't be pretentious or boastful about it). Just act as if its completely normal, and thats what it will hopefully become, along with creating the demand that it needs. I think use of it as normal, and enjoyable, is indeed contagious, at least that's what I've found to be the case among my family and friends.

Su Campu

Ba mhaith liom ár dteanga a úsáid níos mó, rud atá mé ag déanamh anois mar tá páistí ar scoil agam.

I couldn't have written that sentence a year ago, so listening to Irish radio while stuck in traffic has been of huge help in refreshing the oul brain (though I'm not saying there aren't any errors in that sentence above!). :rolleyes:

One thing that bugs me though is the fact that, with the exception of TG4, you can't get exposure to the Irish language without getting the culture/trad bit too, be it music, dance or currachs, etc. The two seem to go hand in hand, so if you're not into the cultural side, and just want to see and hear the language used AS A LANGUAGE, it can be pretty disheartening. It's the same in school - Irish is taught as a SUBJECT, not a LANGUAGE. We can't learn it without having to put up with the poems and other crap that goes with it. I learned French in school and poems weren't part of the syllabus. And guess which one I DIDN'T fail in the Leaving?

ildaite

So glad to hear that others feel the same way!! I feel so, so strongly about this. I agree, I think the only way to overcome it is for people like us to use the language despite the obstacles. I absolutely love the quote from Ellis and mac a' Ghobhainn: it isn't enough just pay lipservice to Irish by having it as a nice decoration on things, to make us feel good and convince us that we're still using the language. I heard recently that language rights have been included as a topic on the junior cert cspe course- about a students right to choose to use Irish, etc. Technically, we have the right. However, in reality, we don't as we can't, due to social and cultural circumstances. What good would it be to have the right to education, and have no schools to attend? You can be sure a school would be set up. What about our language rights? I think the government should take a more active role in protecting these rights. I mean, this isn't a foreign language we're talking about; it's our native tongue!!


I was very impressed on a recent trip to boots in Dublin, where I saw a sign saying "If you'd like to speak Irish, one of our staff has a few words". I also recently started going to Irish classes, and during break times everyone continues to speak Irish! I can't imagine speaking to these people in English- it would just feel so strange, and I love that fact!

Rubecula

Just to put my two pennyworth into this,

I am English, and my family is of Irish descent. I was never given the chance to learn Irish in school, and despite living close to Wales (I am from Liverpool) I was not able to learn Welsh in school.

Indeed we learned French from Mr Williams who was a native Welsh speaker.

I never asked to learn French but it was what I got. (I started very early and became pretty good at it, which is the secret of learning a language as youngsters can more easily absorb it I feel)

My point it this Yes English is widely spoken in all walks of life and yes it is pretty important that we all speak it, BUT Irish, Welsh, Scots Gaelic, Manx, Cornish and so on are our native tongues too, and as such part of our heritage. I would sooner learn my own native heritage languages than some foreign tongue, that sort of learning can be done later in life as and when you need it.

Fada Beo an teanga Dhúchasacha. (I hope I got that right:pac:)

andyterryjay

i hate to spam, but i think just my videos will explain to you how i feel about it this haha....

http://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewJordanGaeilge

i love irish, but it is innevitable that it will die in the near future. unless something really big happens. but the population have made up their minds about gaeilge, apparantly it is useless, stupid, and at the end of the day, embarrassing for us on a European and International stage.

muineachan

I disagree, the people I know don't view Irish as useless or embarrassing. Michael D's Irish was beautiful I dont know one person who thought oh god what an embarrassment, he lifted the country with his language.

Sure there is a section of society who think its useless and thats fine, plenty of things other people value I find useless. Such as Rugby :cool:

Good video by the way

deise go deo

andyterryjay wrote: »

i hate to spam, but i think just my videos will explain to you how i feel about it this haha....

http://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewJordanGaeilge

i love irish, but it is innevitable that it will die in the near future. unless something really big happens. but the population have made up their minds about gaeilge, apparantly it is useless, stupid, and at the end of the day, embarrassing for us on a European and International stage.

The picture is not really so gloomy, Irish as a spoken language is not in decline anymore, the language has stabelised and is growing slowly again, the big problem is that there are currently too few Irish speakers to make the public use of Irish anything more than an oddity in mainstream life.

The big challenge is to speed up the growth of the language and more importantly to get those who can and do speak Irish to do so outside their own immediate social circle.

An gal gréine

I have heard it said in discussions that many in the country who dont speak Irish suffer from post-colonial syndrome hence the shame attached and feelings of stupidity towards it.

muineachan

An gal gréine wrote: »

I have heard it said in discussions that many in the country who dont speak Irish suffer from post-colonial syndrome hence the shame attached and feelings of stupidity towards it.

Id agree with that there

Liobarnach

Ahhhh, this post is a breath of fresh air...

I recently moved back to Ireland because I missed the culture, language and the people, but mostly because we wanted to bring our Little One up here. I have always said that if I have a family, they will be brought up speaking Irish and that's what road I am on now.

So, I have only 'School Irish' and my first baby is only a few months old. I have given myself the task of speaking to her as Gaeilge during the day (I'm a stay at home Mum)... to give her a good start before she goes to Gaelscoil.

Well, I'm not codding ya, I am riddled with shame and embarrassment!:eek: Whilst speaking Irish, there is a parallel dialogue going on inside my brain ridiculing myself and telling myself that I'm an awful eejit altogether.... where does all of this come from? How can I set myself free?

I spoke to my Mother about it the other day and told her I'm moving to Galway, where there is more support for people like me!

My brother came round to our house the other night and saw an Irish Text book on the table. He proceeds to try to engage me in a conversation about the Irish language and how it is dead and will be wiped out eventually. It put me in a bad mood and I didn't even partake in the conversation with him because it's just too depressing to hear Irish people talk like that.

He displayed his lack of enthusiasm for the language. I told him I was revising my Irish language and I didn't mention my wish to bring my baby up as Gaeilge. No one knows that I want a bilingual baby, other than my other half.

So here I am teaching my child Irish in secret... just hope she doesn't pick up on the shame and embarrassment. Hoping she can instead pick up on the love and passion I have for it and my desire to teach her it against all the odds.

Just wanted to share that with ye now...

muineachan

Liobarnach wrote: »

Ahhhh, this post is a breath of fresh air...

I recently moved back to Ireland because I missed the culture, language and the people, but mostly because we wanted to bring our Little One up here. I have always said that if I have a family, they will be brought up speaking Irish and that's what road I am on now.

So, I have only 'School Irish' and my first baby is only a few months old. I have given myself the task of speaking to her as Gaeilge during the day (I'm a stay at home Mum)... to give her a good start before she goes to Gaelscoil.

Well, I'm not codding ya, I am riddled with shame and embarrassment!:eek: Whilst speaking Irish, there is a parallel dialogue going on inside my brain ridiculing myself and telling myself that I'm an awful eejit altogether.... where does all of this come from? How can I set myself free?

I spoke to my Mother about it the other day and told her I'm moving to Galway, where there is more support for people like me!

My brother came round to our house the other night and saw an Irish Text book on the table. He proceeds to try to engage me in a conversation about the Irish language and how it is dead and will be wiped out eventually. It put me in a bad mood and I didn't even partake in the conversation with him because it's just too depressing to hear Irish people talk like that.

He displayed his lack of enthusiasm for the language. I told him I was revising my Irish language and I didn't mention my wish to bring my baby up as Gaeilge. No one knows that I want a bilingual baby, other than my other half.

So here I am teaching my child Irish in secret... just hope she doesn't pick up on the shame and embarrassment. Hoping she can instead pick up on the love and passion I have for it and my desire to teach her it against all the odds.

Just wanted to share that with ye now...

I think if you are bringing your child up in secret then thats not gonna help with shame and embarressment. There are plenty of people raising their kids through Irish. Its your choice and everyones entitled to their opinion, but what if someone you know is doing the same? Youd never know ye were both interested!

It is quite strange to feel embarressed about a language, but i felt it too when i first started speaking, now its normal for me and im far from fluent. But im getting married next year and im sure babies will follow my plan is to be fluent by then and raise them through irish.

There are loads of us in Dublin! Dont think Galway is your only option!

Good luck and be proud!

who the fug

mar dhea, am I right in translating this as "AS IF"or "So HE SAYS"

Liobarnach

I have only been doing this a few months. I am sure it will get easier. There are no lessons or conversation groups in my town (I have looked) and I am not living in Dublin or anywhere near it. I don't know of anyone else in this town doing the same and I have no idea how to go about looking for support or anything. The nearest city is an hour away. I guess I could go there one night a week to go to a conversation circle or something. You're right, I need to work on my confidence...

muineachan

Liobarnach wrote: »

I have only been doing this a few months. I am sure it will get easier. There are no lessons or conversation groups in my town (I have looked) and I am not living in Dublin or anywhere near it. I don't know of anyone else in this town doing the same and I have no idea how to go about looking for support or anything. The nearest city is an hour away. I guess I could go there one night a week to go to a conversation circle or something. You're right, I need to work on my confidence...

I think confidence breeds confidence i spent a year learning on my own before i even spoke it out of the house! Definately the wrong idea! I started in public with my dog, all her orders are in irish! It gave me great confidence out and about speaking it. My fiance doesnt have much interest in Irish but we walk around in public and i talk to her in Irish (where i have it) and shell generally reply in English, she wants to reply in irish but she says she cant think in irish quick enough to reply! Shes very shy about it but her irish wouldnt be too terrible so hopfully i can give her some confidence in it, she recently started using the cupla focal with me in public so i think shes becoming more comfortable, but mainly she just sees it as a bit of fun, i dont think she wants to learn it properly which is a shame for me, but cén dochar! Im happy as long as i get to practise, and as long as shes ok walking round like a pair of looneys mixing our languages!

Good luck any way try http://www.comhluadar.ie/ And their leaflet http://www.comhluadar.ie/documents/final_bearla.pdf

Liobarnach

muineachan wrote: »

I think confidence breeds confidence i spent a year learning on my own before i even spoke it out of the house! Definately the wrong idea! I started in public with my dog, all her orders are in irish! It gave me great confidence out and about speaking it. My fiance doesnt have much interest in Irish but we walk around in public and i talk to her in Irish (where i have it) and shell generally reply in English, she wants to reply in irish but she says she cant think in irish quick enough to reply! Shes very shy about it but her irish wouldnt be too terrible so hopfully i can give her some confidence in it, she recently started using the cupla focal with me in public so i think shes becoming more comfortable, but mainly she just sees it as a bit of fun, i dont think she wants to learn it properly which is a shame for me, but cén dochar! Im happy as long as i get to practise, and as long as shes ok walking round like a pair of looneys mixing our languages!

Good luck any way try http://www.comhluadar.ie/ And their leaflet http://www.comhluadar.ie/documents/final_bearla.pdf

My other half is not from Ireland so I don't have anyone to practice with yet. I have looked at the comhluadar website previously and that's where I got the idea to speak to my Little One only as Gaeilge at home during the day.

I am glad to read that you didn't speak Irish publicly until after a year. I feel there may be hope for me yet! I am still revising and have a lot to learn. Luckily I only have to have basic Irish at the moment for my Little One and I am just about getting by.

I am looking forward to conversing with my children as Gaeilge...

Anyway, sorry for hijacking your thread... back to the topic at hand!!

An gal gréine

who the fug wrote: »

mar dhea, am I right in translating this as "AS IF"or "So HE SAYS"

Usually "as it were" ...or "indeed"...you're on the right track.

ildaite

Glad to hear some positive words, Deise go Deo. I'm not a fluent speaker but I sure am passionate about this and I would really like to see Irish take a bigger part in everyday life. I agree, Michael D's beautiful Irish could inspire people- I hope is presidency will be positive for the language I try to use Irish whenever I have the right- but the sad thing is people think the any or all of the following of you if you speak Irish to them:

1. You're affected
2. You're a raving nationalist and must be an IRA head
3. You're intolerant of other people's cultures
4. You're a psycho, zealot gaeilgeor

I wish the langauge didn't have such negative political associations

muineachan

ildaite wrote: »

Glad to hear some positive words, Deise go Deo. I'm not a fluent speaker but I sure am passionate about this and I would really like to see Irish take a bigger part in everyday life. I agree, Michael D's beautiful Irish could inspire people- I hope is presidency will be positive for the language I try to use Irish whenever I have the right- but the sad thing is people think the any or all of the following of you if you speak Irish to them:

1. You're affected
2. You're a raving nationalist and must be an IRA head
3. You're intolerant of other people's cultures
4. You're a psycho, zealot gaeilgeor

I wish the langauge didn't have such negative political associations

I dont think the connotations are so strong, but they do exist but for me the best way to get rid of them is to speak it n not be one of the above:)

who the fug

An gal gréine wrote: »

Usually "as it were" ...or "indeed"...you're on the right track.

One of thoses words everyone seems to understand, but could never get a direct translation

An gal gréine

who the fug wrote: »

One of thoses words everyone seems to understand, but could never get a direct translation

Yeah, and well established in Hiberno-English!

ildaite

I always thought of it as being "supposedly, with a wink, wink, nudge nudge" haha.

Maith sibh, Liobarnach and Muineachan, I love your dedication! It makes me so happy to see there are people out there who value the langauge and want to see it flourish. You guys on this thread are great!

eire4

Great post. So much of it I agree with and can relate to. I am from Dublin myself but live in Chicago now. But I am making a determined effort to bring Irish into my everyday life as much as possible. Now obviously I cannot go around into stores here speaking Irish. But I do try and use Irish as much as I can when writing notes etc for myself. While I do try and use Irish with my wife at home who is open enough to trying to learn some phrases. I even use commands in Irish with our dog:)

deirdremf

Liobarnach wrote: »

My other half is not from Ireland so I don't have anyone to practice with yet. I have looked at the comhluadar website previously and that's where I got the idea to speak to my Little One only as Gaeilge at home during the day.

I am glad to read that you didn't speak Irish publicly until after a year. I feel there may be hope for me yet! I am still revising and have a lot to learn. Luckily I only have to have basic Irish at the moment for my Little One and I am just about getting by.

I am looking forward to conversing with my children as Gaeilge...

Anyway, sorry for hijacking your thread... back to the topic at hand!!

Have you spoken to anyone in the office at Comhluadar?
If there is anyone else in your area who is also bringing up their family in Irish or bilingually, they will be able to put you on to them.

Cén teanga an labhraíonn do chéile leis na páistí?
Ar nós tú féin, ní Éireannach mo chéile, agus tá cupla teanga againn sa mbaile.
Tá aithne agam ar roinnt daoine mar seo, agus bíonn Gaeilge, Béarla agus teanga eile ag na páistí!