insulating a stone house

homeandry

The walls of our 260 year old stone house are at least 2 feet thick and in the upstairs bedroom the wallpaper gets wet. It is not possible to do external dry lining as the walls were plastered and the window sills do not allow enough room for the external dry lining product. We would appreciate some advice on this

BryanF

homeandry wrote: »

The walls of our 260 year old stone house are at least 2 feet thick and in the upstairs bedroom the wallpaper gets wet. It is not possible to do external dry lining as the walls were plastered and the window sills do not allow enough room for the external dry lining product. We would appreciate some advice on this

you need a conservation architect or architectural technician. don't discount external insulation because of the cills, but really you need to be careful of what insulation you do use as such an old house needs to be able to breath.
I'd be interested to know has the wallpaper dampness gotten worse since the ext wall plastering? I say this as with old buildings lime must be used and never cement.

creedp

BryanF wrote: »

you need a conservation architect or architectural technician. don't discount external insulation because of the cills, but really you need to be careful of what insulation you do use as such an old house needs to be able to breath.
I'd be interested to know has the wallpaper dampness gotten worse since the ext wall plastering? I say this as with old buildings lime must be used and never cement.

Very interesting comments about plastering old stone houses. My parents home is an old farmhouse with the 2ft stone walls which of course were plastered on outside and upstairs on the inside also. Upstairs is OK, in terms of visible dampness but the unplastered walls downstairs are frightening from a dampness/mould growth point of view. My parents are currently trying to get a guy to come in and plaster these walls in order to get rid of this problem. There is no mention of lime plastering here .. we're taling about the usual sand/cement job. Can I ask if doing this is very problematic? The upstairs walls were plastered about 25 years ago and still look fine but is danger lurking inside?? In any case if the outside of the walls are plastered with sand/cement does it matter in any case?

BryanF

creedp wrote: »

Very interesting comments about plastering old stone houses. My parents home is an old farmhouse with the 2ft stone walls which of course were plastered on outside and upstairs on the inside also. Upstairs is OK, in terms of visible dampness but the unplastered walls downstairs are frightening from a dampness/mould growth point of view. My parents are currently trying to get a guy to come in and plaster these walls in order to get rid of this problem. There is no mention of lime plastering here .. we're taling about the usual sand/cement job. Can I ask if doing this is very problematic? The upstairs walls were plastered about 25 years ago and still look fine but is danger lurking inside?? In any case if the outside of the walls are plastered with sand/cement does it matter in any case?

yes don't do it.
donkeys years ago, people lived in stone homes with lime/mud render inside and out, then ever year they lashed lime/white wash on the walls. this was a form of breathable wall, allowing a % of moisture through the wall.. along came cement renders and for the most part stopped this.
I cant comment further without having a look but there are a number of main things I'd watch out for and consider, the main ones being what alterations were made to the home around the time you've started to notice the damp. ie. new windows, bathroom, painting walls, insulation etc. also has anything changed externally, new paths around the house, ditches, ground water changes( possibility of rising dampness).. I'm all for super insulation & air-tightness but in old buildings we must be careful not to reduce ventilation.

wall: whether its driving rain externally / actual wall not being breathable / internal humidity causing surfacing dampness on a cold wall my answer is hack-off plaster and add lime render with hemp lime insulation or some form of natural rigid breathable insulation..

rising dampness: in old homes if its rising damp you should consider digging a trench around the house externally (possibly in intervals to avoid the wall spreading) and fill with land drain wrapped in hemp cloth and backfilled with stone. then if the wall is 2' thick i'd go with the electro osmosis system, which involves an electric current sent into the wall stopping moisture rising up through it.

creedp

BryanF wrote: »

yes don't do it.
donkeys years ago, people lived in stone homes with lime/mud render inside and out, then ever year they lashed lime/white wash on the walls. this was a form of breathable wall, allowing a % of moisture through the wall.. along came cement renders and for the most part stopped this.
I cant comment further without having a look but there are a number of main things I'd watch out for and consider, the main ones being what alterations were made to the home around the time you've started to notice the damp. ie. new windows, bathroom, painting walls, insulation etc. also has anything changed externally, new paths around the house, ditches, ground water changes( possibility of rising dampness).. I'm all for super insulation & air-tightness but in old buildings we must be careful not to reduce ventilation.

wall: whether its driving rain externally / actual wall not being breathable / internal humidity causing surfacing dampness on a cold wall my answer is hack-off plaster and add lime render with hemp lime insulation or some form of natural rigid breathable insulation..

rising dampness: in old homes if its rising damp you should consider digging a trench around the house externally (possibly in intervals to avoid the wall spreading) and fill with land drain wrapped in hemp cloth and backfilled with stone. then if the wall is 2' thick i'd go with the electro osmosis system, which involves an electric current sent into the wall stopping moisture rising up through it.

Thanks for advice BryanF. Like a lot of people, not necessarily an age related thing, my parents are pretty conservative people and talk of using lime based plaster and hemp insulation not to mention electro osmosis will only elicit one response. No!! Problem is that any of the tradespeople that they would know and use would simply fall on their backside laughing at this and tell them not to be listening to these mad ideas.

In relation to the house I don't remeber the dampness being as bad when I was young but then of course double glazed windows were added, a small extension out the back and sand/cement plastering internally upstairs all happenend at same time. This may have been the trigger for the more pronounced problems downstairs. Having said that I do remember that the dampness problem upstairs appeared to be much worse before plastering but the plaster may have transferred the problem elsewhere. Unfortunately, what they want now is a quick solution to the current problem and Im afraid no amount of persuading will make them go down the road of a major restoration job. I suppose if more tradespeople were more up-to date or simply cared about these issues things might be different but there you go ....

homeandry

BryanF wrote: »

you need a conservation architect or architectural technician. don't discount external insulation because of the cills, but really you need to be careful of what insulation you do use as such an old house needs to be able to breath.
I'd be interested to know has the wallpaper dampness gotten worse since the ext wall plastering? I say this as with old buildings lime must be used and never cement.

Thank you for the advice BrianF. We have learned the hard way regardng lime verses cement as the parts of the house that we left the lime based plaster are great. When you say "hack-off plaster and add lime render with hemp lime insulation or some form of natural rigid breathable insulation" Would it solve the problem of the wet walls in the bedrooms if we hacked off the plaster inside and replace it in this manner and left the outside removal of the cement plaster until we could afford it at a later stage.

homeandry

creedp wrote: »

Thanks for advice BryanF. Like a lot of people, not necessarily an age related thing, my parents are pretty conservative people and talk of using lime based plaster and hemp insulation not to mention electro osmosis will only elicit one response. No!! Problem is that any of the tradespeople that they would know and use would simply fall on their backside laughing at this and tell them not to be listening to these mad ideas.

In relation to the house I don't remeber the dampness being as bad when I was young but then of course double glazed windows were added, a small extension out the back and sand/cement plastering internally upstairs all happenend at same time. This may have been the trigger for the more pronounced problems downstairs. Having said that I do remember that the dampness problem upstairs appeared to be much worse before plastering but the plaster may have transferred the problem elsewhere. Unfortunately, what they want now is a quick solution to the current problem and Im afraid no amount of persuading will make them go down the road of a major restoration job. I suppose if more tradespeople were more up-to date or simply cared about these issues things might be different but there you go ....

We had a problem with rising damp and we wasted a lot of money with a well known company pumping the walls. We then decided to dig a trench and discovered that our house had no foundation. The engineer advised us to use a product called lampstar delta on an inside wall that was below the level of the ground outside, this was done 15 years ago and has worked a treat ever since. Your parents will be trowing there money away if they use sand and cement as the damp will be back in less then 6 months

BryanF

homeandry wrote: »

Thank you for the advice BrianF. We have learned the hard way regardng lime verses cement as the parts of the house that we left the lime based plaster are great. When you say "hack-off plaster and add lime render with hemp lime insulation or some form of natural rigid breathable insulation" Would it solve the problem of the wet walls in the bedrooms if we hacked off the plaster inside and replace it in this manner and left the outside removal of the cement plaster until we could afford it at a later stage.

PM sent

creedp

homeandry wrote: »

We had a problem with rising damp and we wasted a lot of money with a well known company pumping the walls. We then decided to dig a trench and discovered that our house had no foundation. The engineer advised us to use a product called lampstar delta on an inside wall that was below the level of the ground outside, this was done 15 years ago and has worked a treat ever since. Your parents will be trowing there money away if they use sand and cement as the damp will be back in less then 6 months

You're probably right there but it seems the long term view is something Irish people have great difficulty with. If it won't payback immediately it simply isn't worth it. We're also insanely suspicious of new ideas ... don't trust them .. if it worked before it'll work again ... all that kind ofstuff ... Probably the reason we're in such a mess in so many ways.

In any case, the key objective for this work is to get rid of unsightly walls in the short term .. the longer term issue of mould/dampness isn't high on the deciding factor scale unfortunately. Anyway all I can do is pass on the information/advice I have been given here.

Thanks

AMG86

See attached. http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/Heritage/BuiltHeritagePolicy/FileDownLoad,24749,en.pdf. It may have some useful ideas.

homeandry

AMG86 wrote: »

See attached. http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/Heritage/BuiltHeritagePolicy/FileDownLoad,24749,en.pdf. It may have some useful ideas.

Thank you AMG.

I found your link very interesting. Brian was also very helpful, Thank you.

I now know that i have a lot to do starting with the chimneys I am also learning that its important to look at the old methods and to make sure to use materials that will not trap moisture and that will allow the house to breath.

padraig91

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrSpX8LF0Lw
interesting link here.

Carlow52

AMG86 wrote: »

See attached. http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/Heritage/BuiltHeritagePolicy/FileDownLoad,24749,en.pdf. It may have some useful ideas.

This link is broken, what is the document called pls: searched for built heritage and there are 100 items on environs.ie

BryanF

http://www.pobail.ie/en/Publications/HeritagePublications/BuiltHeritagePolicyPublications/
there's great stuff there for a lay person, but as usual these documents don't give enough detail or good case studies offering actual solutions/post occupancy energy/comfort results or even better an assessment of what was discounted as being an unsuitable solution!

muffler

AMG86 wrote: »

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/Heritage/BuiltHeritagePolicy/FileDownLoad,24749,en.pdf.

BryanF wrote: »

http://www.pobail.ie/en/Publications/HeritagePublications/BuiltHeritagePolicyPublications/

Neither of those links working guys. Could be the site itself.

Carlow52

The pobail one is working now, perhaps the first one is broken arising from the new allocation of ministerial briefs

from http://www.pobail.ie/en/AboutUs/

"The functions of the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht encapsulate Built and Natural Heritage, Arts, Film, Music, Cultural Institutions as well as Irish Language, Gaeltacht Schemes and Offshore Islands."
versus
http://www.environ.ie/en/AboutUs/
Our Mission is to pursue sustainable development.
In pursuing this mission our mandate is to:-
achieve a high quality environment with effective environmental protection;
address climate change;
protect and improve water resources and the quality of drinking water;
ensure that our regions and communities are planned and built to respect sustainable and balanced regional development;
ensure good quality housing in sustainable communities;
monitor, analyse and predict Ireland’s weather and climate;
support and enable democratic and responsive local government."

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