Support your Fire Fighters wear RED 23/09/11

Smokey Bear

Hi All,

Hope you don't mind me sharing this with you.Not sure how many have heard about this.

Thanks in advance.

On Friday the 23rd of September Fire Fighters from around Ireland will hold a family friendly rally outside the Dail. Fire Fighters are calling for the cuts to the Irish Fire Service to Stop and for the reforms to the Irish Fire service to Start. These cuts will put the lives of Fire Fighters and the community they protect at risk.

The spirit of the Croke Park Agreement was intended to deliver a better public service to the citizens of Ireland. The Irish Fire & Emergency Services Association (IFESA) believe this can be done and look forward to improvements in service delivery in the Fire Service. The Croke ParkAgreement should not be used as a means to implement cuts on essential Public Services. Certain services provided by public servants need to be protected and the finance for them ring fenced.

With local Councillors from Local Authorities around Ireland set to vote on these budget reductions in the near future, IFESA ask the Councillors if they really understand the implications of their actions for their constituents? They are playing with the lives of their Community and those who elected them.

As the majority of Fire Fighters in Ireland operate an on call pager system, they cannot leave their towns to attend the Rally. Consequently, IFESA are asking you, their local community to support your Fire Fighters and help them protect your lives.

IFESA is calling for the communities of Ireland to support their local Fire Service by wearing RED on September the 23rd to show their support. We would urge people to take the time out of their busy lives and show their thanks for the work Fire Fighters do for them and attend the Rally outside The Dail @ 13:00hrs on Friday the 23rd of September. Fire Fighters from Northern Ireland and from Europe will be attending the Rally to show their support for their fellow Fire Fighters.They will all be in uniform.

WE NEED THE SUPPORT OF OUR COMMUNITIES

The 4th anniversary of the deaths of Sub Officer Brian Murray & Fire Fighter Mark O'Shaughnessy who made the ultimate sacrifice while fighting a fire in Bray ,will take place on the 26th of September.
This event will be dedicated to the memory of the many Public servants who worked in the emergency service and lost their lives protecting the citizens of Ireland and their local community

We would ask people to share this event if on Facebook and spread the word by mouth as well or any other means https://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=191975857538085

We would ask you to take on board what we are highlighting, you will either take it in or ignore it and move on.Only to remember when the time comes when you need us ,that we aren’t their in time to save your loved ones or your property.Its to late then.

Support your Fire Service.

Smokey Bear

Reminder to All,

Wear RED to show your support for Fire Fighters tomorrow.

Rally out side the Dail on Kildare Street @ 13:00hs.

Thanks All

Smokey Bear

dfbemt

It is worth pointing out that this rally is not supported by all Fire Service Personnel in the country.

It is being organised by a breakaway association which has its own agenda and does not speak on behalf of all.

I know of many who will not be attending as they do not agree with what is being said or the manner in which it is being said.

Smokey Bear

For information of members it was supported by the following ,

NRFA > National Retained Fire Fighter Association 1,500 +, Retained Fire Fighters in Ireland.

Fire Brigade Union> UK 29,000+, Fire Fighters they spoke at Rally.

EFFUA>European Fire Fighters Union Alliance 100,000+ ,Fire Fighters Letter of Support .

IAFF>International Association Fire Fighter North America 300,000 + Fire Fighters http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_9wcvTdwwo

Australian and New Zealand Fire Brigade union 100,000+ Fire Fighters Letter of support.

Smokey Bear

What The Irish Fire & Emergency Service Association is calling for.

The cuts to the Fire Service budgets to end and for real reform to start.

We are one Nation we don’t need 37 Fire Authorities 30 Chiefs & more than 300 Assistant Chief Fire Officers.

The establishment of a National Fire & Ambulance service in Ireland that will deliver a Fire based Emergency Medical Service to the citizens of Ireland.

A FIRE based EMS will save lives, with A&E departments closing down around the country, Irish Fire Fighters are strategically placed to respond to life threatening incidents and provide life saving interventions to the citizens of Ireland.

A National Fire & Ambulance Service will produce savings of over
€50 million a year.

Vested interest groups have to accept the need for fundamental change and reform in the Irish Fire Service and also who represents Fire Fighters.

We have to accept that a structure that evolved when Ireland was a very different country, largely agricultural with relatively small numbers living in towns and cities can no longer provide us with the level of safety and protection needed.

We need to end a situation where the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, have all of the power without any of the responsibility. They can effectively walk away from any disaster and lay the blame at the doors of the Local Authority.

We are calling on our elected politicians

TO


STAND UP FOR YOUR COUNTRY
STAND UP FOR YOUR CONSTITUENTS
STAND UP FOR YOUR EMERGENCY SERVICES
STAND UP TO THE CUTBACKS
BUT HAVE THE GUTS TO STAND UP

EDIT: Thanks for spotting that dfbemt,for a non members you sure do follow that we do,the mistake was my fault I had taken info from a US press release I had received ,which refereed to US $70million (as per Harold's speech attached).Sorry if that mistake upsets you, corrected now to €50 million.

dfbemt

How many attended today ?

How many members does IFESA have ?

How many fulltime firefighters are not members ?

Can you detail where you will make cuts to achieve €70m of savings because this morning it was €50m ?

dfbemt

dfbemt wrote: »

How many attended today ?

How many members does IFESA have ?

How many fulltime firefighters are not members ?

Can you detail where you will make cuts to achieve €70m of savings because this morning it was €50m ?

The lack of an answer to the above basic questions is proof enough that IFESA is really a nothing organisation. It is not recognised by management. It has little membership. It has achieved nothing since being established other than to split the fire service and make us weaker at a time when we need to be together and at our strongest.

The above questions are simple, based on simple figures.

@Smokey Bear has provided us with a lovely list of demands and has told us what is wrong. We know what is wrong. Just provide the answers to the simple questions asked.

But I don't hold out much hope.

Smokey Bear

Well this thread thread will end in a tit for tat ,as there are some who can't seem to except that the development of a professional union for Fire Fighters & Emergency service personnel is the way to go.Conflict of personalities has a great part to play in it ,this attitude is of a certain few.It is these few that continue to drive us apart.These issues I believe were raised/addressed in another form is it the same username dfbemt??

Vested interest groups have to accept the need for fundamental change and reform in the Irish Fire Service and also who represents Fire Fighters.Hence the reason why they are not too enthusiastic about talking to a group who offers reforms and highlights their miss management of the service.


DFB numbers IFESA has the majority of union paying members 450+.Their is a large group in no union sitting on the fence.This was the case before IFESA was established as many disillusioned with how they were being represented before IFESA launched.
The march would have seen apx 100 > 120 FF a small number but a well presented and organised event.


The number game,IFESA have stated that they have enough to force the issue as was said before it will be presented to the Labour Court.

IFESA have not forced anybody to join but it is quite apparent that the non members seem more interested in what IFESA is doing rather than what their own organisations have failed to do and their failure to develop a strategy.
If we all know what is wrong have the other organisations come out with a strategy to defend the service and develop it ? No.

IFESA plans and costings have been well thought out and have been in development for over two years they were initially presented to SIPTU in summer of 2010 as a joint proposal of IMPACT & SIPTU.Look up minutes of meetings.They have been added to since then.
They are currently being presented to certain people in government in time will be release to IFESA members.

supermedic

I'm not sure under what remit you propose a national fire and ambulance service. IFESA/PNA represents no ambulance emts, paramedics or advanced paramedics in the already existing National Ambulance Service. You may have a number of dual trained paramedic/firefighters in DFB in your organisation, but you do not represent the views of the ambulance service staff. Even your sister organisation, NASRA/PNA, which represents a minority of ambulance staff nationally, has not called for a joint fire ambulance service.

Bang Bang

A National Fire based EMS? I don't think so. Take a look at any of the US or many other countries who've tried that. Even the New York system is a known failure.

"A FIRE based EMS will save lives, with A&E departments closing down around the country, Irish Fire Fighters are strategically placed to respond to life threatening incidents and provide life saving interventions to the citizens of Ireland."

Why do you or your representative association believe that a response needs to be by fire service personnel in a fire service vehicle?

There is an Advanced Paramedic deployment module in operation in many parts of the country and this deployment is steadily growing, and it's proving to be a success. These AP's respond in cars and 4x4 type vehicles. There are also currently 24 HSE Paramedics in the latest class in training on the Advanced Paramedic programme, with another 10 currently doing block 2 on the programme to boost the AP deployment somewhat further.
There is also a panel of trainees awaiting to go into the NAS Motorcycle Response Unit in Dublin.

I do support my peers within the emergency services in Ireland with relation to ongoing cuts and worsening conditions, but let us keep the requests/goals viable and realistic ones.

Smokey Bear

Super medic,We represent the views of our members, we have Paramedic,Advanced Paramedics and EMTs and EFRs outside of Dublin area too.
NASRA have called for a National ambulance service.
By combining and merging the two will delivery cost saving and protect and enhance the delivery of service to the citizens of Ireland.
With co-loacation happening in the near future it is only a matter of time.

The development of the AP programme is to be welcomed but the deployment model is not currently working to its full potential and needs tweaking.

In North America since 2001 90% of EMS is now provided by a Fire Based EMS model.


Bang Bang,(see below for detail response as requested)both organisation can and do work together,with even tighter budgets ahead the merging of both structures would save costs ,so long as the management structure was addressed.

A simple better solution as proposed by IFESA.
Development of Fire based EMS cover for Ireland.

Time. It’s a precious commodity, and it waits for no one. When lives are on the line, seconds count. Fractions of seconds count.
Few individuals in our lives better understand the importance of time than the men and women of the Irish  Fire Service . Highly qualified public servants, trained to handle crises affecting both people and property – often simultaneously. The dedication and training of these professionals and their commitment to quality of care are just two of the many reasons why fire-based Emergency Medical Service (EMS) is the clear choice for public officials and the communities they serve. It is for these reasons and others that IFESA will be highlighting the benefits of a fire based EMS cover for Ireland and the financial saving that this system would  generate.



Higher Survival Rates
With even tighter budgets been placed on local hospitals by the HSE and as communities evaluate their present emergency medical care needs, they may focus exclusively on patient transportation issues. Most research, however, has demonstrated that rapid, on-scene medical intervention produces the best patient outcomes. The fire service is best positioned to deliver this critical care and if resourced would provide rapid patient transport. Fire-based EMS provides a comprehensive approach to emergency care, with trained personnel capable of handling any complication. The bottom line – a better chance for patient survival – is the true measure of quality for any pre-hospital emergency medical system.

Rapid Response Times
The fire service is known for its rapid mobilisation. Firefighters are the nation’s first responders and fire-based EMS would get to the scene faster. A comprehensive response within time limits set by the emergency medical community should be the goal for all EMS providers.With the Health Information and Quality Authority of Ireland  (HIQA) recently  announcing recommendations in relation to  response time for patient.It is IFESA opinion that  this report would further support the establishment of a Fire based EMS response.
"HIQA , 19 January 2011: Emergency services should respond to immediately life-threatening emergency calls within 8 minutes, according to new recommendations published today by the Health Information and Quality Authority."
"The Authority has published Pre-hospital Emergency Care Key Performance Indicators for Emergency Response Times, which ambulance services should start using immediately. The Authority’s report outlines time-based response targets for patients with emergency conditions such as heart attacks. It also requires service providers to begin publicly reporting their response-time performance later this year.
Measures aimed at ensuring that emergency service response times for patients in Ireland are comparable with other countries are contained in the report. It recommends that ambulance services must aim to be on the scene for life-threatening patient emergencies within set timeframes, and to achieve these in most cases. Director of Healthcare Quality and Safety with the Authority, Jon Billings, said, “Historically, the absence of such a system in Ireland has been a major gap in what is needed for a safe, good quality emergency response service.”

Quality of Care
Unacceptably high workloads, lack of resources,stress and perceived lack of commitment to patient care by the Irish Government all take their toll on the single-role EMS provider. Unfortunately, the patients they serve also invariably suffer. The teamwork, efficient job performance, and continuous patient contact enjoyed by the fire service, on the other hand, affects patient care in a way that cannot be qualified by financial figures .

Fire-Based EMS -- The Right Choice
Citizens need a system that works in the field, not only on paper. Decision makers, therefore, must look at what their community is getting for the price, particularly in the areas of response time, personnel capabilities and system efficiency. Only then can a community make an informed choice about a critical service, with the same confidence that they place in the rapid response and effective work of their fire brigade.
Fire service-based EMS provides this pivotal public safety service while also emphasising responder safety, competent and compassionate workers, and cost-effective operations.
Regardless of whatever agency provides medical transportation services, the fire service is the agency that first delivers on-scene health care services under most true emergency conditions. Therefore, prehospital 999/112 emergency response, in support of community health, security and prosperity, is not only a key function of each community; it would become, almost universally, a principal duty of the fire service as well. In addition, fire service-based EMS systems would be strategically positioned to deliver time critical response and effective patient care rapidly. Furthermore, the fire service-based EMS would accomplish this rapid first response while emphasising responder safety, sending competent and compassionate workers, and delivering cost-effective operations.
The role of the fire service would be central in 999/112 emergency medical response, financial, political, cultural and organisational factors would make the conversation about prehospital care providers confusing and complex for many decision makers in local communities. The goal of this discussion is to resolve and demonstrate that the use of fire service equipment and personnel to provide 999/112 emergency response is the best approach for a community regardless of size.


Types of Fire Service-Based EMS Systems
The fire service in Ireland could  be configured many ways to deliver prehospital 999/112 emergency medical care such as the following general configurations:

Fire Service-Based EMS options

␣ Fire service-based system using cross-trained/multi-role firefighters. Firefighters are all-hazards responders, prepared to handle any situation that may arise at a scene including patient care and transport as is operated by Dublin Fire Brigade to over 1.5 million people of Dublin City and County.

␣ Fire service-based system using employees who are not cross- trained as fire suppression personnel. Single role EMS-trained responders accompanying firefighter first-responders on 999/112 emergency medical calls.They would be the  first responders to emergency scenes and  patient transport provided Health Service Executive   (HSE) ambulance with paramedic crews.

␣ Combined system using the fire department for emergency response and   “third service” (Garda, Fire, Coast Guard ,Community response teams,EMS) provider for transportation & support. The Fire Fighters would be trained to emergency medical technicians  standard or paramedics standard they would be the  first responders to emergency scenes and  patient transport provided  HSE ambulance with paramedic crews.

While there are pros and cons to the various system approaches, the emergency medicine (EM) literature indicates that the most likely time to create error in medical care is when care is transferred from one provider to another in a relatively short encounter time. Such circumstances require that the fire service regularly exercise the leadership needed to ensure that integration of the parts of the prehospital emergency care system are coordinated well, with maximum benefit to the patient and minimum risk to the community. For example, in the fire service-based EMS model in which the fire department provides extrication, triage and treatment services, and a separate  provider that is HSE transports the patients, appropriate quality assurance measures must be in place. This quality assurance is most effective when the fire brigade and HSE, as the public agency, administers and monitors the performance requirements on-scene and within the transportation agreement.


Multi-Role Firefighters: Patient Safety from Multiple Perspectives
To further emphasise that the prehospital 999/112 emergency care patient should be considered a separate and distinct type of patient in the continuum of health care, consider the setting and the circumstances of emergency medical care delivery. These patients not only have medical needs, but they also need simultaneous physical rescue, protection from the elements and the creation of a safe physical environment as well as management of non-medical surrounding sociologic concerns. The fire service is uniquely equipped to simultaneously address all of these needs.
The mission of the fire service is to protect and save lives and property. There are no other conflicting agendas with the fire service-based prehospital, 999/112 emergency response.


Medical care system is designed to be part of society’s safety net. Fire and prehospital 999/112emergency response medical care are intimately intertwined. Separating them from the EMS focus only serves to polarise our country’s already fragmented emergency response system.

All out-of-hospital emergency care and ambulance transport professionals are taught that scene safety is the primary objective at every emergency scene. However, outside of Dublin Fire Brigade all of today’s non-fire service-based EMS professionals in Ireland do not have the additional resources and often do not have the training to effectively secure a scene. When there is a strict medical orientation in their professional training and practice, adequate preparation to appropriately and safely provide emergency medical care to an emergency patient may be compromised. Scene safety issues are often not apparent until a crew is on-scene to assess the incident.

Decision makers should consider, ‘What does a non-fire based EMS crew do on the scene of a motor vehicle accident when the car is engulfed in flames and occupants are trapped inside, and fire crews were not dispatched?’ In many cases, a non-fire service-based EMS provider would need to request dispatch of a fire brigade after the initial scene size-up, further delaying care, and further increasing risk to rescuers and victims this is what happens in the majority of Counties in Ireland currently  . Streamlining this approach into the fire service-based prehospital 999/112 emergency medical care system is quite arguably more effective from the perspective of scene safety, short response time, integrated rescue and treatment, and then transport to a medical facility. Regardless, the firefighter response is a key element of patient safety, both medically and environmentally.

Fire Service-Based EMS as the Health Care System Safety Net
Prehospital Fire service based EMS ,999/112 emergency patient medical care could play a major part of the safety net for the Irish healthcare system. They may be the provider of last resort for the needy, yet they can be one more mechanism for overloading the health care system. Nevertheless, to its credit, the fire service-based, prehospital 999/112 emergency patient medical care would provide unconditional service to all members of our population. Therefore, the fire service must now become an integral part of the public health system and work closely with medical and public health experts to help alleviate unnecessary burdens on already overburdened hospital, medical and public health systems. Already part of local government, the fire service may be best positioned to sit at the table and help provide important data to facilitate creating solutions to pressing health care public policy issues.
Above all, rapid response times are a pivotal advantage of fire service-based, prehospital 999/112 emergency EMS systems. By equipping fire engines with automated defibrillators to reverse sudden cardiac arrest, the fire truck, coupled with bystander CPR, could become one of the greatest life-saving tools in medical history. With stroke centres to treat stroke within the golden 3 hour window, cardiac catheterisation centres to treat heart attack in the 90 minute door-to-balloon time, and trauma centres to treat haemorrhaging patients, time efficiency is a key component of the best designed EMS systems. The service most capable of rapid multi-faceted response, rapid identification and triage to the appropriate facility would be  a fire service-based EMS system.


RESOURCES AVAILABLE

The fire brigade is geographically deployed throughout the community to minimise response times. The most expensive parts of the EMS system – personnel, apparatus, and facilities – are already being paid for.

Response time is the absolute priority for medical emergencies. Firefighters are in the best position to respond quickly and provide vital services.

EMS has been a part of the fire service in Dublin for more than 103 years –  EMS is not a distraction from our mission - it is one of our core services provided by firefighters and paramedics.

Prehospital, 999/112 emergency response is one of the essential public safety functions provided by Dublin  Fire Brigade. If Fire service-based EMS system was adapted nationally, Fire Fighters would be  strategically positioned to deliver time critical response, effective patient care and scene safety.with the  fire service delivering pre-hospital emergency medical service response. 

EMS training would be  part of the basic training for all firefighters. 

Personnel are the most expensive part of any emergency response system. Fire Brigades are essentially “standing armies” in their communities poised to respond to an emergency. Utilising firefighters to provide EMS gets more bang for the buck.

The ride for the sick or injured person in the ambulance is only part of the system. A comprehensive EMS system includes rapid response, intervention, stabilisation, and then transportation to a definitive care facility, if needed.

Fire service-based EMS brings the treatment to the patient – wherever they are. Treatment by firefighters begins immediately, even if the patient is trapped in a building that’s on fire, pinned in a car crash, or in a collapsed structure.

The provision of EMS response, treatment, and transportation by firefighters is seamless. One agency is responsible for the continuity of patient care and provides EMS within an “all-hazards” response model.

Firefighters are long-term workers in their communities. Most fire brigades have very low turnover rates. Firefighters know about the needs in their communities...and firefighters would be highly trained emergency medical care providers.

The fire service EMS deployment model is more robust than any private for-profit ambulance-based EMS model. Firefighters are deployed and ready to respond to any type of emergency. Firefighters don’t leave town when the going gets tough.

Bang Bang

Briefly, the USA Fire based EMS. New York, Rudy Giulliani in 1998 was the mayor of New York, he rail roaded in his ideas of a fire based EMS in. Before that there was a separate Fire Department and Ambulance Service. Mayor Giulliani was told that there would be a lot of problems with this proposed combined EMS, he wouldn't listen. The FDNY/EMS module is awash with problems and Rudy Giulliani's legacy of bad management lives on in that fire based module. For further information just do a little research and you'll see.
The rest of the US and combining New York where fire based EMS modules are in place, they constantly rely on voluntary and private companies to bail them out and assist, when those various companies are not available then the fire based EMS is on it's knees.

Now some of your quotes;

"NASRA have called for a National ambulance service."

There is a National Ambulance Service.

"Few individuals in our lives better understand the importance of time than the men and women of the Irish Fire Service"

Care to explain what this means? So it's only fire personnel that understand the importance of time??

"The dedication and training of these professionals and their commitment to quality of care are just two of the many reasons why fire-based Emergency Medical Service (EMS) is the clear choice for public officials and the communities they serve. It is for these reasons and others that IFESA will be highlighting the benefits of a fire based EMS cover for Ireland and the financial saving that this system would generate."

Do HSE Paramedics not have a commitment to quality of care?

"The fire service is known for its rapid mobilisation. Firefighters are the nation’s first responders and fire-based EMS would get to the scene faster."

So the NAS may be slower to respond?? What about AP cars, the NAS Motorcyle Response Unit amongst others, are firefighters THE nations first responders?

"Unacceptably high workloads, lack of resources,stress and perceived lack of commitment to patient care by the Irish Government all take their toll on the single-role EMS provider. Unfortunately, the patients they serve also invariably suffer. The teamwork, efficient job performance, and continuous patient contact enjoyed by the fire service, on the other hand, affects patient care in a way that cannot be qualified by financial figures ."

Pure rubbish.

"Fire service-based EMS brings the treatment to the patient – wherever they are. Treatment by firefighters begins immediately"

So do non fire based EMS sit around playing cards before treatment of a patient begins?

"Decision makers should consider, ‘What does a non-fire based EMS crew do on the scene of a motor vehicle accident when the car is engulfed in flames and occupants are trapped inside, and fire crews were not dispatched?’ In many cases, a non-fire service-based EMS provider would need to request dispatch of a fire brigade after the initial scene size-up, further delaying care"

AMPDS is up and running which allows early dispatch of any fire service. You mention further delay in care again, why? NAS Paramedics can treat patients who are trapped with no fire. Again AMPDS would have despatched the fire service so any fire can be dealt with.

"Firefighters are long-term workers in their communities. Firefighters know about the needs in their communities...and firefighters would be highly trained emergency medical care providers."

As opposed to whom?


Firefighters don’t leave town when the going gets tough.

I included this one because it's so funny!


Briefly I'll just add that we know why HIQA awarded the running of any emergency ambulance service to the HSE National Ambulance Service

cycle43

How can anyone still support SIPTU? The deals they have been caught doing behind our backs in the DFB and F/F's still support them. Do you think they represent you? IFESA will happen and then all you fencesitters and sheep will then come running. A Union of Firefighters for Firefighters, what can be so wrong with that?

dfbemt

cycle43 wrote: »

A Union of Firefighters for Firefighters, what can be so wrong with that?

I thought it was the Fire AND Emergency Services Association or have they been forgotten ????????

More mystery and intrigue from IFESA and still questions go unanswered.

cycle43

Haha, get a life pal. Still with Sliptru, they don't give a F**k about you, they have lifted their game only because there down money.

Nasra= Ambulance service

Ifesa= Fire service.

Both will take other emergency worker who have been shafted by SIPTU and IMPACT. It only a matter of time, and you will be in our gang. Or are you afraid to move because your going for promotion.

Paulzx

cycle43 wrote: »

Haha, get a life pal. Still with Sliptru, they don't give a F**k about you, they have lifted their game only because there down money.

Nasra= Ambulance service

Ifesa= Fire service.

Both will take other emergency worker who have been shafted by SIPTU and IMPACT. It only a matter of time, and you will be in our gang. Or are you afraid to move because your going for promotion.

Your two posts on this thread are sort of an indication why plenty of people have decided to stay in Siptu and Impact.

You have basically derided every non member of IFESA. Everyone is free to choose which organisation they wish to be a member of. You have chosen yours and the best of luck to you.

However, you do the organistion you purport to be a member of a disservice with your childish and insulting comments.

dfbemt

cycle43 wrote: »

Haha, get a life pal. Still with Sliptru, they don't give a F**k about you, they have lifted their game only because there down money.

Nasra= Ambulance service

Ifesa= Fire service.

Both will take other emergency worker who have been shafted by SIPTU and IMPACT. It only a matter of time, and you will be in our gang. Or are you afraid to move because your going for promotion.

And that is exactly why I will not be joining IFESA. Agressive, bully boy insults and slurs. Are your comments the image that IFESA support ? Are you just a "gang" ?

And your reference to "going for promotion" has made my family, my friends, my station, my district and my watch roll around the floor in laughter. We all looked at the pictures of a self appointed SO, read your comment and laughed uncontrolably. Nice one

All my simple questions are still unanswered. Surely there are answers ? Are there ?

IFESA will only ever be a fire ogranisation despite trying to include other Emergency Services. And don't forget the NRFA who are purely a FIRE organisation and who operate very succesfully under the SIPTU umbrella.

Hooch

cycle43 wrote: »

Haha, get a life pal. Still with Sliptru, they don't give a F**k about you, they have lifted their game only because there down money.

Nasra= Ambulance service

Ifesa= Fire service.

Both will take other emergency worker who have been shafted by SIPTU and IMPACT. It only a matter of time, and you will be in our gang. Or are you afraid to move because your going for promotion.

Above user infracted for personal abuse.

Keep it civil guys, thanks

NGA

Resceu247

Thats whats wrong with this whole country at the minute, and has us in the mess we are in today !

Constant bickering and degrading of the fellow worker,

Firstl I'm in the fire service and am a member of IFESA, I was at the rally and not only was there a very professional aspect to the whole thing but there was also SIPTU / IMPACT and non members there.

Beleave me IFESA isnt great by any means and the last thing I'm gona do is slaughter IMPACT or SIPTU, I just felt that a change was needed and that IFESA was a good move fore fire personel.

No body ever bullied anyone into joining this or that union, and in fareness, congrats to Siptu on the recent labour court rulings, they did well and we will all benefit and vica versa when Ifesa has its day in court then all Siptu members will benefit, what people seem to forget is we all wear the same F**king uniform and work side by side, never forget that, the union doesnt follow us into a fire or side by side at an RTA.

If people in all organisations spent the same amount of time working that they do slating each other we wouldnt be in half the mess.

To whatever union your in, best of luck I hope it works out for yea and they look after yea, but dont start slagging them off for past differences or current ones for that matter, no union is perfect and if it was we'd still find something wrong about it.

Hopefully some day there will be a national fire service, and we can get all the benefits that come with that, and f it means that its members will be in Ifesa, Siptu and Impact well so be it, who gives a f**k, once all of our working conditions get better.

Just because a person comes on here and talks about their specific Union doesnt mean they represent the voice of that union, and thank god thats the case

cycle43

Maybe a little too harsh with my comments, but a lot of guys won't move from established Unions because of Recognition issue. Both Unions have not served us well, a change is needed, someone needs to make a stand and in a sense lead the way. Got reported for my comments, seen a lot worse before and I'm not the only one cursing.

As for "We all looked at the pictures of a self appointed SO, read your comment and laughed uncontrolably. Nice one ", very confused about that.

Paulzx

cycle43 wrote: »

Maybe a little too harsh with my comments, but a lot of guys won't move from established Unions because of Recognition issue. Both Unions have not served us well, a change is needed, someone needs to make a stand and in a sense lead the way. Got reported for my comments, seen a lot worse before and I'm not the only one cursing.

As for "We all looked at the pictures of a self appointed SO, read your comment and laughed uncontrolably. Nice one ", very confused about that.

I think you're being a bit niave if you think that the recognition issue is the main reason people haven't joined IFESA.

Yes, there has been major issues with Siptu. However, the new people involved are operating in a correct manner and have in my opinion represented us very well since they took up the job. We have to be realistic due the situation that the country finds itself in and prioritise the issues that really matter. Sometimes this is to the detriment of other problems and decisions are made that we are not happy with.

dfbemt

cycle43 wrote: »

As for "We all looked at the pictures of a self appointed SO, read your comment and laughed uncontrolably. Nice one ", very confused about that.

I am confused that you didn't understand TBH.

You implied that I was not moving to IFESA because I was going for the panel, hence my reference to a certain self appointed SO.

Apparently you can get promoted by 2 ranks without even going for a panel nowadays !!!

I fully agree with @Paulzx. I believe that the new people involved with the Section are doing a good job and, more importantly, for the right reasons.

It's not all about promotion.....

cycle43

Get ye now. Would you really want to be an S/O at present? Jobs hard enough without having our management putting you in horrible positions as was seen in NO 7 recently. Our management are in a way, telling me and everyone else what Union to join by not having dialogue with the largest group within our job, IFESA.

Agree about Siptu upping game and current section doing good job. I've no problem with DFB section and never had but because of the way it's structured within a branch, difficulties or issues were next to near impossible to get aired as these points would have to be passed by the Branch. We're lumped in with a whole load of diverse public sector workers so getting issues tackled was way too difficult. I jumped ship because I feel it's logical we look after ourselfs, we know there is difficulty with recognition, but that will come. I've total faith in one particular man who was at the centre of all our pay and conditions we now have (or had).

Last thing, this tread started as an open invite to all within our job to the Rally at the Dail but turned very sour (I've a lot of blame here I know), but were earlier comments in this tread knocking it and saying it doesn't represent all Firefighters unfair? I for one found the whole thing very dignifyed especially the moment of silence for the Bray F/F's who died in the line of duty. I know I represented all F/F's during that brief moment.

dfbemt wrote: »

I am confused that you didn't understand TBH.

You implied that I was not moving to IFESA because I was going for the panel, hence my reference to a certain self appointed SO.

Apparently you can get promoted by 2 ranks without even going for a panel nowadays !!!

I fully agree with @Paulzx. I believe that the new people involved with the Section are doing a good job and, more importantly, for the right reasons.

It's not all about promotion.....

Blackbolt19

I don't often post here but I just had to answer these, I do agree with most of your points Bang Bang, but these two.

Bang Bang wrote: »

"The fire service is known for its rapid mobilisation. Firefighters are the nation’s first responders and fire-based EMS would get to the scene faster."

So the NAS may be slower to respond?? What about AP cars, the NAS Motorcyle Response Unit amongst others, are firefighters THE nations first responders?

AP cars and Motorcycle response units may be available in the cities but there is more of a country out there than the cities. Where i live there is no AP cars or Motorcycle response units in the county, so in this one you may be correct in the cities but not for all the counties. Not to mention that sheer geography is a major factor in response times. If the HSE Ambulance base is twenty or so miles away and the fire station is five miles away then obviously the fire crew will be on scene faster thus giving quicker treatment to the casualty.


"Decision makers should consider, ‘What does a non-fire based EMS crew do on the scene of a motor vehicle accident when the car is engulfed in flames and occupants are trapped inside, and fire crews were not dispatched?’ In many cases, a non-fire service-based EMS provider would need to request dispatch of a fire brigade after the initial scene size-up, further delaying care"

AMPDS is up and running which allows early dispatch of any fire service. You mention further delay in care again, why? NAS Paramedics can treat patients who are trapped with no fire. Again AMPDS would have despatched the fire service so any fire can be dealt with.



AMPDS may be up and running but as a retianed country firefighter i can tell you as a fact that only in some counties is it implemented. In a lot of counties fire are not even alerted to an RTA before an Ambulance is on scene. As i said above, Ambulance base twenty miles away so lets say it takes the Ambulance twenty minutes to get on scene (that is counting on one being available). Fire station five miles away on scene in ten minutes allowing five minutes for the crew to respond to being alerted. That means that if the fire crew is not called at the same time as the Ambulance and the casualty requires extrication the it is thirty minutes before extrication can even start but if Fire are alerted at the same time then both extrication and pre hospital care can start ten minutes before the Ambulance even arrives.

Bang Bang

Blackbolt19,
On both of your accounts you're choosing distances to suit your point, how come the ambulance appears to be the furthest away in both of your examples?

On your first point: The ambulance isn't always going to be twenty miles away. But with County Councils in many parts of the country refusing to provide a full time Fire Service to the public then it only stands that the Ambulance Service will more often than not be on scene quicker than any other provider. Remember too, there are more AP cars deployed outside of the cities and ALS cars are rarely tied up at Emergency Departments.

My example of AP cars, there are more AP cars deployed outside of the cities than within any big city in this country, as mentioned above.
The original poster of which we've both quoted didn't mention areas when he stated that the Fire Service are the nation's first responders, they're not, the Fire Service is one part of a system that holds many First Responders, and that includes Community First Responders who operate in some towns and villages in more rural settings, this also includes the local GP, and the Ambulance Service.

As for your County where the Fire Service isn't responded to as a matter of course. Have you looked at your County Council, because more often it's the County Council that inhibits automatic turnout of the Fire Service, look what happened to some counties in the midlands when Fire was responded to all RTA's, it was the County Council who looked to have that protocol revoked due to cost. Which brings home closer the reason how a Fire based EMS system will not operate in this country.

Blackbolt19

Bang Bang wrote: »

Blackbolt19,
On both of your accounts you're choosing distances to suit your point, how come the ambulance appears to be the furthest away in both of your examples?

On your first point: The ambulance isn't always going to be twenty miles away. But with County Councils in many parts of the country refusing to provide a full time Fire Service to the public then it only stands that the Ambulance Service will more often than not be on scene quicker than any other provider. Remember too, there are more AP cars deployed outside of the cities and ALS cars are rarely tied up at Emergency Departments.

My example of AP cars, there are more AP cars deployed outside of the cities than within any big city in this country, as mentioned above.
The original poster of which we've both quoted didn't mention areas when he stated that the Fire Service are the nation's first responders, they're not, the Fire Service is one part of a system that holds many First Responders, and that includes Community First Responders who operate in some towns and villages in more rural settings, this also includes the local GP, and the Ambulance Service.

As for your County where the Fire Service isn't responded to as a matter of course. Have you looked at your County Council, because more often it's the County Council that inhibits automatic turnout of the Fire Service, look what happened to some counties in the midlands when Fire was responded to all RTA's, it was the County Council who looked to have that protocol revoked due to cost. Which brings home closer the reason how a Fire based EMS system will not operate in this country.

Oh don't get me wrong Bang Bang as i said i agree with most of what you are saying. All i am pointing out is that the system quoted is not the same in the entire country. As for the Ambulance times the distance i actually used was an approximation of about half. I know that in my own fire cover area that there are places where an Ambulance is 40 to 50 minutes away. The automatic turnouts to RTAs for the fire service has been doing the rounds for years. The blame has been bounced around form Its the fire chiefs to its not HSE protocol to its the council, it is impossible to get a straight answer to it from anyone. As for the fire ems based service, to be honest i am undecided on it, i can see both good and bad points to it in a rural setting. The cure to the RTA turnouts is to have an Irish fire service instead of a county by county fire service so that the turnout protocols are the same in every county. Why should people in one county get a faster service that those in the next county

anyone_local

Bang Bang wrote: »

Blackbolt19,


My example of AP cars, there are more AP cars deployed outside of the cities than within any big city in this country, as mentioned above.
.

country is hardly awash with them. Take for example In clare there is only 1 AP car at any time covering the entire county, a total of 4 ambulance stations.

Bang Bang

anyone_local wrote: »

country is hardly awash with them. Take for example In clare there is only 1 AP car at any time covering the entire county, a total of 4 ambulance stations.

Read the full text and you'll understand the context;)

Bang Bang

Blackbolt19, some fair points for sure. I've always wondered what makes the smaller towns so undeserving of a full time fire service compared to the bigger cities.
Keep safe.

civdef

It's all down to money. Wholetime manning of fire stations is very, very expensive relative to retained.

Unless a station is doing 600+ call per year, the financial case is very hard to argue with, and in the current climate, that's fairly much it.

dfbemt

civdef wrote: »

It's all down to money. Wholetime manning of fire stations is very, very expensive relative to retained.

Unless a station is doing 600+ call per year, the financial case is very hard to argue with, and in the current climate, that's fairly much it.

Try 1000+ as in the case of Swords which was the most recent retained station in the country which went fulltime. Also involved the closure of a 2nd retained station doing approx 500 calls pa.

anyone_local

even in the good times it was like drawing blood from a rock for a busy retained station to be up upgraded to wholetime 24/7 manning. dont think there is a retained station in the country outside Dublin that has made the jump in recent times.

dfbemt

anyone_local wrote: »

even in the good times it was like drawing blood from a rock for a busy retained station to be up upgraded to wholetime 24/7 manning. dont think there is a retained station in the country outside Dublin that has made the jump in recent times.

I thought day manning was looked for in a certain town approx 3-4 years ago but it was voted down as the retained lads were making too much money as retained and day manning would have left them with a pay cut !!!!

Mind boggling...