Angel is the worst character in Buffy ever.

nyarlothothep

I think his role in the series is essentially this kind of hunk/dark knight bad boy type that women go for, dark with an evil past but wanting to change/be good/or even be domesticated if you take it to its extreme conclusion, with the additional fact that when he returned from hell world he had to be chained up like an animal before he became civilised/more feminised again. But this basic untamed masculinity which would play into the brooding bad boy image is what I think he was created for.

Now this is my essential problem with Angel, 1. the character type is derivative and not interesting, they could have at least put an original spin on him but he was cliched from the start, 2. David Boreanz is not a great actor, 3. In the series he's a douche to all the other characters except Buffy. Then he acts like a douche towards her before changing back, changing over again and generally living up to his primary function. Moreoever he kills Giles' hot girlfriend Ms Carpenter who was a much more interesting character. Giles' retaliation was terribly scripted, he brings his good weapons to kill Angel but ends up waving a piece of wood with fire on it. I mean Giles is the kind of person to plan things out and certainly bringing his good weapons would indicate that he had a plan in mind but then he just ends up going primal with a piece of wood. I mean wtf?! And then Buffy punches him, punches her father figure, way to go with inculcating good values. Poor Giles indeed.

The concept for the Angel tv show was cool, its just that Angel is a bland character. I'm thinking that while Michael Keaton was cast against type as Batman he played that role 5000 times better than Bale or the others, I think that no matter how cliched Angel was if they had cast someone who could actually act regardless of whether they looked the part the character might have been better.

nix

It was good for its time, i look at Buffy season 1 and 2 and its just dated, doesn't stand tall like the rest of the seasons in regards to the test of time. I think Boreanaz is a decent actor, just not good enough to pull off the Irish accent, which is why some, including myself deemed him a crappy actor. But again he got alot better as the seasons progressed.

Angel really came too in his own in his spin off series, but i agree the acting/character logic in season 1+2 is weak, but Angel wasn't the only bad egg.

The only characters who had good chemistry throughout were Buffy, Willow and Xander, Xander being the strong link IMO, but thats cause he could so many witty lines ;D

On behalf of my gender, hey!

nyarlothothep

I agree with pretty much all of this. I actually watched a full episode of Angel and it does merit further investigation, it was the episode where they were in a sub, it was in part humourous and also established the backstory for Spike's chip, so it was interesting from that perspective. I guess if they had made Angel less of a douche to the other characters and add some extra personality dimensions/quirks he would have been a better character.

Sudden Valley

I agree to some extent that Angel that Angel was a bit of an ass in Buffy but only perhaps from Seaosn 3 onwards. You point to him killing Ms.Calendar but that was of course, Angelus. He did save the lives of a number of Buffy's friends in the show so I don't think he cared only about Buffy. It was interesting how they changed his character in the Angel Tv Series, making fun of his brooding and lack of social skills. The only problem I had with his acting was his accent.

nyarlothothep

My problem of the killing of Ms Calendar has more to do with the writer's choice I guess in that regard, they really shouldn't have sacrificed such as a strong character simply to promote Angelus' evil point score in order to showcase why Angel had a soul in the first place because he was such an evil bastard beforehand. And to compound this they had Giles act in a very inconsistent way, bringing his best weapons and then simply running an Angel with a bit of firewood. If anything they should have given Giles more of a serious retribution moment with Angel and have him kick his ass totally, Giles as a formidable opponent didn't really come into play until he fought Willow.

In relation to the first two seasons, I think season one was definately cheesy although it had a lot of charm, season 2 less so, but the early seasons were great for that kind of goofiness.

Dohnny Jepp

I tihnk he is a good actor, really like him in bones.

nix

nyarlothothep wrote: »

My problem of the killing of Ms Calendar has more to do with the writer's choice I guess in that regard, they really shouldn't have sacrificed such as a strong character simply to promote Angelus' evil point score in order to showcase why Angel had a soul in the first place because he was such an evil bastard beforehand. And to compound this they had Giles act in a very inconsistent way, bringing his best weapons and then simply running an Angel with a bit of firewood. If anything they should have given Giles more of a serious retribution moment with Angel and have him kick his ass totally, Giles as a formidable opponent didn't really come into play until he fought Willow.

In relation to the first two seasons, I think season one was definitely cheesy although it had a lot of charm, season 2 less so, but the early seasons were great for that kind of goofiness.

Its what Joss is renound for doing though, building up a character and then killing them, he has killed off far bigger characters than Miss Calender (

the slayer girl, forget her name, Fred, Wes, Lilah, Doyle, Darla, Cordelia, Lindsey etc

) Frankly i didn't really think much of her and found her relationship with Giles forced and unconvincing.

I like the fact that he kills key cast members, makes for more suspenseful watching, as you know they might well just die. How many TV shows have an invincible cast? and even in suspenseful moments you know they aren't going to die.

nyarlothothep

Really? I thought she was the perfect foil for Giles' English reserve, that conflict generated chemistry imo. One of the things I liked about the earlier seasons was that the world was much more contained and mellow, the departures of certain characters certainly lessened it, eg Seth Green's decision to pursue his career outside of Buffy. I think Cordelia should have remained.

Sudden Valley

I think what killed the show was what kills most high-school based shows that last too long- the move to the college years. Never seen that do well in any show.

nix

There was a few more seasons after the college years

I enjoyed the college years ones, Riley was annoying but some good episodes.

Buffy finished as Gellar didnt wanna do it anymore, Angel was canceled because Joss wanted an early response on if the show would be renewed so they said no because of that, but later revealed they would have renewed it, stupid eh ?

Sudden Valley

I think the college years (which seem to last season 4 – middle of season 5) were the worst and Riley the worst leading man (even worse the lovesick Spike) in the series. Definitely for me 2-3 (the high school years) were the best. Going back to the title of the thread I find it hard to think of one character who I could consider the worst in Buffy. Even though I didn’t much like the things Xander, Willow, and Buffy did in the later seasons, or Angel in season 3, I never hated any of the characters. If I had to choose one. It would be the potentials in season 7 as the worst characters to appear in the show (and I was only ever slightly annoyed by them).

coconut5

I found Angel the most interesting when he was Angelus, and trying to mess up Buffy's life with Spike and Drusilla. One of my fave episodes is the 'Only Have Eyes For You' one where Buffy and Angel are possessed by the ghosts who are in love, and they end up kissing, and then the spell ends just as they kiss, and they are disgusted (but not really).

nix

Sudden Valley wrote: »

I think the college years (which seem to last season 4 – middle of season 5) were the worst and Riley the worst leading man (even worse the lovesick Spike) in the series. Definitely for me 2-3 (the high school years) were the best. Going back to the title of the thread I find it hard to think of one character who I could consider the worst in Buffy. Even though I didn’t much like the things Xander, Willow, and Buffy did in the later seasons, or Angel in season 3, I never hated any of the characters. If I had to choose one. It would be the potentials in season 7 as the worst characters to appear in the show (and I was only ever slightly annoyed by them).

Yeah i was never mad about Buffy, theres great episodes here and there, i watched season 7 again recently, and it actually starts off great, but then gets alot weaker when the potentials come into it. I found the later seasons after highschool were like that, strong in some parts, weak in other parts.

I loved Angel though from start to finish

nyarlothothep

The college years were handled pretty well but that's a matter of opinion. I liked Riley and the cyber demon angle for season 4 was cool. Season 5 was epic and 6 was a weird experiment, a kind of comedown from where Buffy reached her apex as a slayer along with the Scooby gang. Season 7 was just a mess, the whole first evil thing was a lame enemy, it was so powerful, so evil that you couldn't even define it, hmmm, that's a bit wanting, its like Species 8472 in Voy as the successor villains to the borg, even though the writers attempted to make them scary it just came across as forced and contrived, I found this to be the same with the first evil. The actual frightening villain was the priest guy, he was completely odious, probably the most disturbing villain in Buffy ever.

As for Angel I think he had social skills, he just used them to brush off the other characters and remind people of his superiority, a character lacking in real social skills would be Jonathan or Andrew, and possibly even Warren.

Mr.Nice Guy

For me Angel was the best character in Buffy and I felt after he left the series went on the wane. I also think the show really started to take off when he lost his soul and turned evil. I also prefer the Angel series to Buffy. Angel as a character brought a menacing edge to the show that helped take it away from the cartoonish goofy antics of the Scooby Gang silliness imo.

batm!ke

^^^ +1

I see what people are saying about Boreanaz not being a great actor, but I thought it added to the fact that Angel was socially awkward so it seems a perfect fit. Himself and Buffy had great chemistry in the early days. I switched my allegiance from Buffy (show) to Angel (show) when Angel started.

Thought 'City of' (Pilot) episode was a great start. Buffy went downhill after
1) Angel left
2) Giles took a back seat when they went to college
3) her Mother passed (which was v. well acted to be fair)
4) Spike became a whipped b*tch
5) and worst of all... Dawn appeared. That ruined the show for me.

While all that was going on Angel was going from strength to strength. It wasn't without it's faults obviously but IMO it was superior to Buffy as the two shows came to a close. I should say I still loved both shows!

Nervous Wreck

Riley was the worst character ever. Followed by Warren.

nyarlothothep

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Riley was the worst character ever. Followed by Warren.

What?!

Skinfull

nix wrote: »

Its what Joss is renound for doing though, building up a character and then killing them, he has killed off far bigger characters than Miss Calender (

the slayer girl, forget her name, Fred, Wes, Lilah, Doyle, Darla, Cordelia, Lindsey etc

) Frankly i didn't really think much of her and found her relationship with Giles forced and unconvincing.

I like the fact that he kills key cast members, makes for more suspenseful watching, as you know they might well just die. How many TV shows have an invincible cast? and even in suspenseful moments you know they aren't going to die.

But

Cordelia and Doyle

were not killed off because their characters/stories deemed it to be so, but because their real life counterparts brought too much bad light to the show, more specifically, A sex tape and a notoriously bad drug habit, respectively.

I love Angel. The first few seasons are great. What made the show a bore was the kid. The baby / conor bull**** arc annoyed the hell outta me, and then Conor and Cordelia? That was just plain wrong!! :mad:

Nervous Wreck

Skinfull wrote: »

But

Cordelia and Doyle

were not killed off because their characters/stories deemed it to be so, but because their real life counterparts brought too much bad light to the show, more specifically, A sex tape and a notoriously bad drug habit, respectively.

I don't believe either of those things to be true. For Doyle, it was a plan from early on to kill him off.

""That was always a plan, and clearly that character didn't mesh. He was a very popular character, but the mesh was very difficult in ways that made it hard to write. Glenn had a kind of intensity that was kind of like David [Boreanaz's], and David already has that. It could have gone a different way, but that was the plan we had and we decided to execute it. Glenn Quinn knew that it was an issue and he learned pretty early on. I said this is what we're going to do...' and I promised him a hero's exit.""

Later, Whedon was noted as saying he planned to reintroduce him but Quinn died before that happened.


Also, with Cordelia, Whedon apparently said that he dropped Cordelia as there was "nothing left" for her to do. He was also reportedly fairly pissed off that CC got pregnant in the first place....



But.......... sex tape, you say?!

Nervous Wreck

nyarlothothep wrote: »

What?!

Warren was not believable as a villain (of any sort) and Riley wasn't even believable as a real human being most of the time.

nix

I second that, and also too, sex tape???

Skinfull

Seriously? No one saw the sex tape?!
Should I be looking for the torrent link?


Well consider it sordid with ejaculation and face shots and stuff!

And as for Doyle... he was just uncontrollable... seriously... how do you guys not know this?! Have you been introduced to this show after the fact? I mean we watched week to week and without Internet and we still knew what was going on!!!

nix

Everywhere im looking on the net tends to confirm Joss had always planned to kill him and being fired for drugs is bull****.

If he was such a thorn in Joss's side with his drug problems i doubt Joss would have made reference to him in any of the other seasons, or dedicated an episode in his memory.

I watched Angel in real time and never heard of his drug problems till after he OD'd..

Also was it Cordelia or Doyle in this sex tape?

nyarlothothep

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Warren was not believable as a villain (of any sort) and Riley wasn't even believable as a real human being most of the time.

No, I think Warren was a very accurate representation of the engineer personality type but evil. He had that kind of forward planning thinking combined with a sarcastic wit. I thought he was believable and a good demonstration of how a villain can get be ordinary yet with pure intelligence as opposed to strength/social influence. I mean if we're talking about unbelievable villains we might as well include the Master from season 1. Riley was believable I think, I've met people like Riley, composed, affable, high achievers. For example there was one episode of Big Bang Theory (a show I no longer like), where Penny goes out with a genius physicist who is the ultimate popular guy, defying every physics stereotype. Initially I thought, ffs come on, but then I remembered how I've met scientists who fit that description exactly, they're rare of course, most physicists don't match that criteria.

batm!ke

Skinfull wrote: »

Seriously? No one saw the sex tape?!
Should I be looking for the torrent link?


Well consider it sordid with ejaculation and face shots and stuff!

And as for Doyle... he was just uncontrollable... seriously... how do you guys not know this?! Have you been introduced to this show after the fact? I mean we watched week to week and without Internet and we still knew what was going on!!!

Yes. Yes you should

Art_Wolf

*shudders*

Nervous Wreck

I think you've misunderstood what I meant.

nyarlothothep wrote: »

No, I think Warren was a very accurate representation of the engineer personality type but evil. He had that kind of forward planning thinking combined with a sarcastic wit. I thought he was believable and a good demonstration of how a villain can get be ordinary yet with pure intelligence as opposed to strength/social influence.

Warren was believable as a person, sure, but not as a villain. I never once believed he posed any sort of threat to Buffy and her mates. The trio were more of a joke than anything. The dude who played Warren did a good job of it though.

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Riley was believable I think, I've met people like Riley, composed, affable, high achievers.

Riley was poorly written. Confident and bumbling all at once and terribly acted. They didn't seem to know what to do with him or how to write him. Even when they tried to make him dark, he just came across as lame. I'd like to say a better actor could have pulled it off but I think that'd still be a bit optimistic.

nyarlothothep

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

I think you've misunderstood what I meant.



Warren was believable as a person, sure, but not as a villain. I never once believed he posed any sort of threat to Buffy and her mates. The trio were more of a joke than anything. The dude who played Warren did a good job of it though.




Riley was poorly written. Confident and bumbling all at once and terribly acted. They didn't seem to know what to do with him or how to write him. Even when they tried to make him dark, he just came across as lame. I'd like to say a better actor could have pulled it off but I think that'd still be a bit optimistic.

Ah, in that case yes, the trio were amateurs but the show never pretended otherwise. When Warren walks into the vampire bar the other customers are indifferent or don't know about his exploits. They weren't villains so much as a metaphor for how they were still stuck in a Sunnydale high past while Buffy etc were getting on with their lives. Season 6 is an odd one because it wasn't so much about a big bad as about the protagonists fighting their own demons eg Willow, Buffy, Spike etc.

Riley, well yeah, everything about him was a bit lame but I found that he was a more likeable character than Angel and therefore a worthy addition to the cast.

Mr.Nice Guy

I thought Riley sucked. Loved the episode where Angel destroyed him. :pac: