Fertiliser plan

Muckit

Right lads

Now I'm fully aware that fertiliser spreading is finished now until next spring, but I just want to be ready. I've a few questions that ye might be able to help or give me guidance with. There's all sorts of gaps in my knowledge when it comes to bag manure!

And before any of you go on about getting soil tested and going by those results, I understand all that!! I've got all land tested last spring and fertilised accordingly.

However:

1. If say for example, soils were ok for P+K last spring, obviously this doesn't mean they will continue to stay this way. So how do you calculate how much P+K to use next time?
2. When is the next time to spread P+K? Will it depend to a certain extent on how your stocked, if silage was taken off that field etc etc?
3. I am of the understanding that nitrogen should be used 'little and often' to keep grass growing, relative to stocking density etc. Is this correct? (every 6weeks?)

I would be interested to know how all of ye figure all this out, or is there a bit of guesswork involved? I'm expecting that some of the dairy lads on here could give a few pointers!

24-2.5-5 would seem to me, from a logical point of view, to be a good fertiliser to keep things fairly balanced, i.e a kind of maintenance fertiliser if P+K were fairly right to start with. Yes/No?

Would lads spread 0-7-30 or 0-10-20 on it's own to boost P+K for the year? What is the best time to spread it? Autumn or spring?

Really what I'm wondering is what kind of bag fertiliser to you use, when do you use it, and why?

I'm grateful for all replies

Muckit

helloooooooo

5live

I usually use 18:6:12 when the p and k is low eg on silage ground in spring. Then i use half a bag of 27:2.5:5 on grazing ground when the p+k is ok.
I think Jan 15 is the next date for n+p but straight k can be spread any time.

To my way of thinking, spring would be the best time to spread as there is less chance of leeching and the p is there ready when the grass starts to grow. I am toying with the idea of 0:10:20 and 0:7:30 for next spring and straight can after but not sure what way to go yet

bob charles

best thing to do is to fertilise for the off take if you plan on farming for a long time. the basic soil test doesnt reveal an awful lot except a small picture of where P and K levels are but it doesnt reveal whats available to the plant. Do a little more detailed tests and you will be able to determine the important ratio which are much more important. A balance soil is the most important thing. Figures are available on the net for the offtake of P and K from a ton of grass/grain etc and it very easy work out a replacement of offtake. Its interesting stuff soil

Muckit

bob charles wrote: »

the basic soil test doesnt reveal an awful lot except a small picture of where P and K levels are but it doesnt reveal whats available to the plant.

Figures are available on the net for the offtake of P and K from a ton of grass and it very easy work out a replacement of offtake.

See bob this is exactly what I was talking about. It makes sense to fertilise correctly for the amount of stock you have or for the silage you take off. But as you talked about, it is how to do this precisely that I am interested in finding out.

Muckit

5live wrote: »

I usually use 18:6:12 when the p and k is low eg on silage ground in spring. Then i use half a bag of 27:2.5:5 on grazing ground when the p+k is ok.
I think Jan 15 is the next date for n+p but straight k can be spread any time.

To my way of thinking, spring would be the best time to spread as there is less chance of leeching and the p is there ready when the grass starts to grow. I am toying with the idea of 0:10:20 and 0:7:30 for next spring and straight can after but not sure what way to go yet

Thanks for this info 5Live. I really can't fathom why nitrogen is sold on it's own? Surely as you've pointed out, the soil will need a little P+K put back after grazing as well as nitrogen. Therefore 27-2.5-5 seems a good fertiliser as opposed to straight CAN to keep all essential elements 'topped up' and get the most from the nitrogen.

Thanks again for the tips/info

Anything to offer Stanfit / whelan1 ??

GERMAN ROCKS

the big difference between 27/2.5/5 and can is the cost. can is about 315 whereas 27/2.5/5 is 415 making the extra 2.5/5 an extra 100 a tonne which is expensive.

Muckit

GERMAN ROCKS wrote: »

the big difference between 27/2.5/5 and can is the cost. can is about 315 whereas 27/2.5/5 is 415 making the extra 2.5/5 an extra 100 a tonne which is expensive.

So how do you get over this problem German Rocks? Spread P+K separately??

blue5000

Hi Muckit,
I presume you are talking about grass only?
Do you spread slurry on this ground?
Have you any soil test results?

0.7.30 in spring on silage ground, I think each cut removes about 50 units of K per acre. If your grazing ground which is index 3 or above I don't think it will need any P + K, but this depends on how tightly stocked you are.

5live

GERMAN ROCKS wrote: »

the big difference between 27/2.5/5 and can is the cost. can is about 315 whereas 27/2.5/5 is 415 making the extra 2.5/5 an extra 100 a tonne which is expensive.

But you also have to factor time into the equation and the diesel cost extra on another runout with the tractor and spreader in spring when time has a huge premium for me anyway. Plus i can get pasture sward with sulpher way easier than can with sulpher so that plays into my reasoning too

Muckit

blue5000 wrote: »

Hi Muckit,
I presume you are talking about grass only?
Do you spread slurry on this ground?
Have you any soil test results?

0.7.30 in spring on silage ground, I think each cut removes about 50 units of K per acre. If your grazing ground which is index 3 or above I don't think it will need any P + K, but this depends on how tightly stocked you are.

Thanks for replying blue!

Yes it is grassland only I am talking about. My P+K levels are ok from the results. I haven't them to hand, but I will try root them out.

Really what I'm trying to find out is how does a livestock farmer go about calculating their fertiliser (particularly P+K) requirements scientifically (ie not guessing or judgement!), based on their stocking rate, once soils are corrected to level 3 (ie working from a balanced soil base).

You are getting to what I'm talking about by telling me that silage uses 50 units of K per acre. Thanks for that.

But is there some way of calculating P+K requirements for grazing? Ie does anyone know what are the additional chemical P+K requirements (taking their dung etc into account) per LU say??

And what P+K levels are there in slurry per 2000gallons? They had it in the journal before, is it that 2000gal slurry is equivalent to 1 bag of 0-7-30??

TUBBY

blue5000 wrote: »

Hi Muckit,
I presume you are talking about grass only?
Do you spread slurry on this ground?
Have you any soil test results?

0.7.30 in spring on silage ground, I think each cut removes about 50 units of K per acre. If your grazing ground which is index 3 or above I don't think it will need any P + K, but this depends on how tightly stocked you are.

I was OK for P last year and found it better price-wise (by a long way) to get N in urea form and K in Muriate of Potash and spread separately. That way you can spread exactly what you want/ need and arent restricted by the ratios on bag-stuff. Also most of the compounds has some P which you are paying for but dont need.

5live

TUBBY wrote: »

I was OK for P last year and found it better price-wise (by a long way) to get N in urea form and K in Muriate of Potash and spread separately. That way you can spread exactly what you want/ need and arent restricted by the ratios on bag-stuff. Also most of the compounds has some P which you are paying for but dont need.

But the effectiveness of urea is practically zero once ground dries up. It needs soil moisture to get active and when ground dries up you get large losses of urea to the air. It worked this year because groung was rarely very dry for long (round here anyway) but a lot of years will leave you short of grass during the summer

bob charles

5live wrote: »

But the effectiveness of urea is practically zero once ground dries up. It needs soil moisture to get active and when ground dries up you get large losses of urea to the air. It worked this year because groung was rarely very dry for long (round here anyway) but a lot of years will leave you short of grass during the summer

You could be a rep for the fert companies with your advice above. As has be shown in studies during the most unsuitable urea spreading dry spells max losses were at 20 to 25%. If spread when there is dampness around there wont be an issue.

there is no such thing as correcting soil up to an index of 3 and anyone telling you so doesnt know damn all about soils. My best performing soils are in Index 1 and barely index 2. They are at such low indicies as they put everything into growing good crops year in year out. I would apply the previous/current crops offtake to keep enough nutrients available to the next crop. Soils with high index's often perform poorly due to lock up of nutrients for one reason or another that why some will say the benefit of tissue testing are very important to see what the plant is actually able to use to function. Regarding a balanced soil having the Ca:Mg ratio correct is very important and also watch S and K levels as one can lock up the other if an imbalance is there which will in turn affect the Ph. thats why just because you have a low Ph doesnt automatically indicate the need for spreading lime. there are many other factors at play. Bog standard soil tests are of little value the more you learn about soils.

Muckit

bob charles wrote: »

You could be a rep for the fert companies with your advice above. As has be shown in studies during the most unsuitable urea spreading dry spells max losses were at 20 to 25%. If spread when there is dampness around there wont be an issue.

there is no such thing as correcting soil up to an index of 3 and anyone telling you so doesnt know damn all about soils. My best performing soils are in Index 1 and barely index 2. They are at such low indicies as they put everything into growing good crops year in year out. I would apply the previous/current crops offtake to keep enough nutrients available to the next crop. Soils with high index's often perform poorly due to lock up of nutrients for one reason or another that why some will say the benefit of tissue testing are very important to see what the plant is actually able to use to function. Regarding a balanced soil having the Ca:Mg ratio correct is very important and also watch S and K levels as one can lock up the other if an imbalance is there which will in turn affect the Ph. thats why just because you have a low Ph doesnt automatically indicate the need for spreading lime. there are many other factors at play. Bog standard soil tests are of little value the more you learn about soils.

Bob you seem very knowledgable about soils. I would totally agree with alot of what you have said about correcting soils to an ideal index, much better to fertilise based on what silage/grazing is taking out. I can't really fathom how to fertilise correctly after having soils tested, that's why I started this post!

You've said alot above, but told me nothing really that can help me. ie I've already said what you're saying that it's better to know what silage and grazing livestock are taking out, so you can put it back in.

Can you give me figures like what I've requested above ??

ps. Sorry if I sound Pessimistic, but I am doubting that I will find the info I am looking for in this forum

jeff greene

Muckit wrote: »

Can you give me figures like what I've requested above ??

ps. Sorry if I sound Pessimistic, but I am doubting that I will find the info I am looking for in this forum

I had all those figures when I did my Green cert, looking at my old tattered ag science book, First cut silage removes 40P, 73K. Here its straight N + never ending supply of slurry.

You can obviously use a computer, do some research. :cool: I'll start
http://www.teagasc.ie/research/reports/environment/4354/eopr-4354.pdf

http://www.grassland.ie/calc.html

Muckit

jeff greene wrote: »

I had all those figures when I did my Green cert, looking at my old tattered ag science book, First cut silage removes 40P, 73K. Here its straight N + never ending supply of slurry.

You can obviously use a computer, do some research. :cool: I'll start
http://www.teagasc.ie/research/reports/environment/4354/eopr-4354.pdf

http://www.grassland.ie/calc.html

Thanks Jeff I didn't go to ag college unfortunately, so all my (limited) knowledge is got experience and from a bit of research.

Jeff, one last thing, slurry.... you use alot of it you say. Can you tell me how many units of P+K slurry puts back?

Good loser

If your P + K is okay as per recent soil tests and you are grazing only you can do with N (Urea) only for 2/3 years. You won't need much as I would say you are not tightly stocked. Sulfa CAN is good for dry weather in Summer.

Discuss and research the matter in the interim. Spred any slurry on silage/hay ground.

jeff greene

Bookmark this, its from 2008 so with fertilizer more expensive again now, its really shows its value.

Muckit

jeff greene wrote: »

Bookmark this, its from 2008 so with fertilizer more expensive again now, its really shows its value.

Thanka again Jeff. I can't seem to open the link, has it expired? I see from the title link it is an article from the Farming independent on slurry.

Muckit

Hi

I googled there and found this link...

http://www.thecattlesite.com/articles/1767/slurry-application-management-for-optimum-fertilizer-value

Seems to answer what my questions regarding slurry

9 6 38 per 1000gallons

It also says for all intents and purposes slurry can be used to supply all required P+K , which is basically what you are doing Jeff

bob charles

for grazing grass it becomes a little more difficult. If I give a figure for an average beef stocking rate (2.5lu per ha) will remove something along the lines of 20kgs of P and 40 kgs of K (15units per acre of P, 35 units of K) for grazings as remember that the animals will be returning allot of nutrients.

As for slurry per 1000 gallons something around 7 units of P and 35 of K wouldnt be too far wrong for animals fed good quality silage. Feeding grain on the grass will reduce nutrients need and if feeding grains during winter then your slurry will also be more powerful. The Available N in slurry depends allot on how its applied, slurry DM and time of year applied

Muckit

bob charles wrote: »

for grazing grass it becomes a little more difficult. If I give a figure for an average beef stocking rate (2.5lu per ha) will remove something along the lines of 20kgs of P and 40 kgs of K (15units per acre of P, 35 units of K) for grazings

Thanks bob for all info. This is what was looking for.

As for 2.5LU/ha being an average stocking rate.........:rolleyes: Most of the 'BETTER' beef farms are currently working towards a target of 2-2.2LU/Ha, and sure they're the best farmers!

bob charles

Muckit wrote: »

Thanks bob for all info. This is what was looking for.

As for 2.5LU/ha being an average stocking rate.........:rolleyes: Most of the 'BETTER' beef farms are currently working towards a target of 2-2.2LU/Ha, and sure they're the best farmers!

Ah, but you will be better than the 'better' farmers when you take some of the advice on here onboard!:D

5live

bob charles wrote: »

You could be a rep for the fert companies with your advice above. As has be shown in studies during the most unsuitable urea spreading dry spells max losses were at 20 to 25%. If spread when there is dampness around there wont be an issue.

Interesting bob. I hadnt read that. Any source for that. Seems to be against current teagasc advice though, which may make it true by itself

bob charles

5live wrote: »

Interesting bob. I hadnt read that. Any source for that. Seems to be against current teagasc advice though, which may make it true by itself

Nearly 100% sure it was New Zealand research on volatilization of N to the atmosphere. I will have a search of the interweb