Where sport in Ireland has come from

jonniebgood1

Reading through Arthur Youngs account of Ireland in 1779 I came across reference to hurling. This is more than 100 years before the formation of the GAA and we are told that the sport was played by Cuchulain. Young in 1779 identified the people playing the sport in his book:

so spiritedly active at play, that at hurling, which is the cricket of savages, they shew the greatest feats of agility. pg181 http://www.gutenberg.org/files/22387/22387-h/22387-h.htm

The 'cricket of savages' is a fantastic introductory description to the game for people who had never known of it. I'm not sure whether I am mixing up his description from elsewhere or whether it is a different sport when he describes the following? :

There is a very ancient custom here, for a number of country neighbours among the poor people to fix upon some young woman that ought, as they think, to be married. They also agree upon a young fellow as a proper husband for her. This determined, they send to the fair one’s cabin to inform her that on the Sunday following “she is to be horsed,” that is, carried on men’s backs. She must then provide whisky and cider for a treat, as all will pay her a visit after mass for a hurling match. As soon as she is horsed, the hurling begins, in which the young fellow appointed for her husband has the eyes of all the company fixed on him. If he comes off conqueror, he is certainly married to the girl; but if another is victorious, he as certainly loses her, for she is the prize of the victor. These trials are not always finished in one Sunday; they take sometimes two or three, and the common expression when they are over is, that “such a girl was goaled.” Sometimes one barony hurls against another, but a marriageable girl is always the prize. Hurling is a sort of cricket, but instead of throwing the ball in order to knock down a wicket, the aim is to pass it through a bent stick, the end stuck in the ground. In these matches they perform such feats of activity as ought to evidence the food they live on to be far from deficient in nourishment. pg 147

So this thread can look at how sport has developed into what it is today and what it was at different stages in Irish history. In relation to Gaelic football it does not go back as far as hurling

The earliest record of a recognized precursor to modern Gaelic football date from a game in County Meath in 1670, in which catching and kicking the ball was permitted. A six-a-side version was played in Dublin in the early 18th century, and 100 years later there were accounts of games played between County sides (Prior, 1997). http://www.thesmartjournal.com/GAA.pdf

I knew football would have its origins in Meath- you can never beat the Royals!!!
Any relevent information about how soccer, rugby, etc penetrated Ireland or about the Tailteann games

Fratton Fred

Most european football, such as soccer, rugby or, I presume Gaelic football, originated from Mob or Shrove Tuesday football.

Sedgefield in County Durham still has an annual match.

Cricket, as we all know, results from a racial memory of the Krikkit wars, the most catastrophic war the galaxy has ever known.

HellsAngel

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Reading through Arthur Youngs account of Ireland in 1779 I came across reference to hurling. This is more than 100 years before the formation of the GAA and we are told that the sport was played by Cuchulain. Young in 1779 identified the people playing the sport in his book:
The 'cricket of savages' is a fantastic introductory description to the game for people who had never known of it. I'm not sure whether I am mixing up his description from elsewhere or whether it is a different sport when he describes the following? :

So this thread can look at how sport has developed into what it is today and what it was at different stages in Irish history. In relation to Gaelic football it does not go back as far as hurling I knew football would have its origins in Meath- you can never beat the Royals!!!
Any relevent information about how soccer, rugby, etc penetrated Ireland or about the Tailteann games

Appearently cricket was quite populiar in rural Ireland until the GAA was founded and introduced the ban on foreign games etc I think some historian wrote a book about this in Tipperary where almost every village at one point had a cricket team. I remember reading in a magazine about how there were Hurling rules in Galway pre the GAA. One of the rules stated that a player could not partake if believed to be under too much influence of alcohol !!!!!

astonaidan

Hurling came from a the Fairies, Cuchulain seen them playing it

jonniebgood1

astonaidan wrote: »

Hurling came from a the Fairies, Cuchulain seen them playing it

We have a standard for humour on the History forum and this does'nt meet it.

Please don't post here again or you will get an infraction.
Moderator.

byhookorbycrook

Caid was the original Gaelic football,was it not?Soory to quote wikipedia!

"Caid was especially popular in rural areas, such as the Dingle Peninsula of Kerry[1] and Eigeen in west Cork. (Some people in Kerry still use the word caid to refer to modern Gaelic football, especially in the Irish language.) One observer in the mid-19th century, Father W. Ferris, described two main forms of caid during this period: the "field game" in which the object was to put the ball through arch-like goals, formed from the boughs of two trees, and; the epic "cross-country game" which took up most of the daylight hours of a Sunday on which it was played, and was won by one team taking the ball across a parish boundary. Both of these were rough and tumble contact sports in which "wrestling", pushing and the holding of opposing players was allowed. It was usually played by teams of unlimited numbers, representing communities, until a clear result was achieved or the players became too exhausted to continue."


re cricket, it used to be far stronger in Kilkenny than hurling,as many of the landed gentry had their own cricket teams.
Cricket is now undergoing somewhat of a revival in the area, due to the large number of stable staff from India and Pakistan.

HellsAngel

I remember reading that up until the 1930's Wrestling ( proper wrestling under Olympic rules or whatever ) was as populiar in Ireland as Boxing. Appearently quite a lot of boxing and weight lifting clubs doubled up as Wrestling clubs.

astonaidan

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

We have a standard for humour on the History forum and this does'nt meet it.

Please don't post here again or you will get an infraction.
Moderator.

That was a story I read when I was child about mythical stories like the Blackbird and Salmon of knowledge, My bad its only when I checked realised it was Fionn Mac Cumhaill my bad Just realised I may have been reading bout Cu Chulainn but wasnt meant as a joke just something i remembered

CDfm

Celtic Heritage and folklore did play a big part in its revival and the stories of Fionn , Oisin etc did have an impact and was part of the gaeloc revival.

MarchDub

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

. In relation to Gaelic football it does not go back as far as hurling I knew football would have its origins in Meath- you can never beat the Royals!!!
Any relevent information about how soccer, rugby, etc penetrated Ireland or about the Tailteann games

Well Meath is also the site of the Tailteann games -the Tailteann games owe much to folklore and the oral tradition of stories - written down in Christian times. The story of the games is told in the text about the God/King Lugh who initiated the games sometime around ? BC – exact date is a guess. The games we are told took place on the plains of Midhe, [Meath] near Teamhair [Tara] and the name ‘Taillten’ comes from Lugh’s foster-mother Taillte who was buried there.

And Lugh was made king over the Men of Dea then, and it was at Nas he had his court.

And while he was king, his foster-mother Taillte, daughter of Magh Mor, the Great Plain, died. And before her death she bade her husband Duach the Dark, he that built the Fort of the Hostages in Teamhair, to clear away the wood of Cuan, the way there could be a gathering of the people around her grave. So he called to the men of Ireland to cut down the wood with their wide-bladed knives and bill-hooks and hatchets, and within a month the whole wood was cut down.

And Lugh buried her in the plain of Midhe, and raised a mound over her, that is to be seen to this day. And he ordered fires to be kindled, and keening to be made, and games and sports to be held in the summer of every year out of respect to her. And the place they were held got its name from her, that is Taillten.

Translation: Lady Augusta Gregory.

A modern attempt to revive the games didn’t take:

Dublin 1924 - The First Tailteann Games
The Tailteann Games of 1924 started with a spectacular pageant. Preceded by two "Celtic warriors", complete with wolfhounds on a leash, athletes and artists marched through Dublin and into Croke Park.

The participants came from Ireland, England, Scotland, Wales, Canada, the USA, South Africa and Australia - English-speaking countries with a large Irish immigrant population. The notable absence of representatives of the "Celtic race" from continental Europe highlights the narrow interpretation. And the tourism of well-to-do Irish from abroad seems to have been a welcome (and planned) effect here.

Fast Decline
The "World Meeting of the Celtic Race" had no real future, especially the Irish Free State losing interest fast. Though some Tailteann Games were staged after the inaugural event of 1924 they became smaller. And in 1932 an attempt to celebrate St. Patrick's 1500th anniversary was somehow overshadowed by the Eucharistic Congress - the latter mobilizing far more resources and, most important, people.

Holding a sports event in competition with the Olympic Games in Los Angeles might not have been the most inspired idea either. And so the Tailteann Games by and large went the way of King Lugh's original ... into the annals of history and legend

pedroeibar1

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Any relevent information about how soccer, rugby, etc penetrated Ireland or about the Tailteann games

The idea of reviving the Tailteann Games was discussed at the time of founding the GAA - it led to the selection of a group of GAA men to go to the US in 1888 to play exhibition/fund-raising matches (known as the 'Gaelic Invasion') to raise £5,000 to finance the Games. Michael Cusack put a spanner in the works in a very public row with Davitt & Davin, but the selection process went ahead and about 50 players & officials went. In brief, the visit ended as a big failure due to infighting between two US associations that were to promote / assist the trip; Michael Davitt who was the main financial backer (he had to pay hotel & transport bills when the money ran out) lost heavily and about half the players remained in the US. Left such a sour taste that the notion of a 'Tailtenn' was never seriously mentioned for decades.
Rs
P.

si_guru

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Most european football ... originated from Mob or Shrove Tuesday football.

Sedgefield in County Durham still has an annual match.

Do you know if that predates the Ashbourne (Derbyshire) game?

CDfm

Do I remember this coming up in the Blood of the Travellers thread ?

MarchDub

Just thought I would post some of the references we have from the old Irish mythological texts on hurling:

Both are taken from Gods and Fighting Men and the first is a description of a fight between 'foreigners' coming into the harbour and the Irish - and the amazing feats that a hurling stick and ball can produce.

But Dubhan went to the strand, and a hundred men along with him; and there was no one there before him but Dolar Durba, and he said he was there to fight with the whole of them. And Dubhan's men gave a great shout of laughter when they heard that; but Dolar Durba rushed on them, and he made an end of the whole hundred, without a man of them being able to put a scratch on him.

And then he took a hurling stick and a ball, and he threw up the ball and kept it in the air with the hurl from the west to the east of the strand without letting it touch the ground at all. And then he put the ball on his right foot and kicked it high into the air, and when it was coming down he gave it a kick of his left foot and kept it in the air like that, and he rushing like a blast of March wind from one end of the strand to the other.

And when he had done that he walked up and down on the strand making great boasts, and challenging the men of Ireland to do the like of those feats. And every day he killed a hundred of the men that were sent against him.


Translator Lady Gregory 1904

And what about the influence of women? A hurling match that lasted three days and three nights -

There rose a dispute one time between two women of the Tuatha de Danaan, Aine and Aoife, daughters of Manannan, son of Lir, for Aoife had given her love to Lugaidh's Son, and Aine had given her love to a man of her own race, and each of them said her own man was a better hurler than the other. And it came from that dispute that there was a great hurling match settled between the Men of Dea and the Fianna of Ireland, and the place it was to be played was on a beautiful plain near Loch Lein.

They all came together there, and the highest men and the most daring of the Tuatha de Danaan were there, the three Garbhs of Slieve Mis, and the three Mases of Slieve Luachra, and the three yellow-haired Murchadhs, and the three Eochaidhs of Aine, and the three Fionns of the White House, and the three Sgals of Brugh na Boinne, and the three Ronans of Ath na Riogh, and the Suirgheach Suairc, the Pleasant Wooer from Lionan, and the Man of Sweet Speech from the Boinn, and Ilbrec, the Many-Coloured, son of Manannan, and Neamhanach, son of Angus Og, and Bodb Dearg, son of the Dagda, and Manannan, son of Lir.

They themselves and the Fianna were playing the match through the length of three days and three nights, from Leamhain to the valley of the Fleisg, that is called the Crooked Valley of the Fianna, and neither of them winning a goal. And when the Tuatha de Danaan that were watching the game on each side of Leamhain saw it was so hard for their hurlers to win a goal against the Fianna, they thought it as well to go away again without playing out the game.

Translator Lady Gregory 1904

Fratton Fred

si_guru wrote: »

Do you know if that predates the Ashbourne (Derbyshire) game?

No idea I'm afraid. My only knowledge of it is talking to a pub landlord in the village. He was explaining to myself and a friend who had just moved there how it all works. Apparently it is a 200 man scrum.

losthorizon

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Most european football, such as soccer, rugby or, I presume Gaelic football, originated from Mob or Shrove Tuesday football.

Sedgefield in County Durham still has an annual match.

Cricket, as we all know, results from a racial memory of the Krikkit wars, the most catastrophic war the galaxy has ever known.

Rugby originated I think from football (soccer) and was a result of a player cheating by picking up the ball during the match and running for the line. I cant remember for the life of me in what English city this happened but rugby is an offshoot of football and Ive read this on more than one or two occasions.

Fratton Fred

losthorizon wrote: »

Rugby originated I think from football (soccer) and was a result of a player cheating by picking up the ball during the match and running for the line. I cant remember for the life of me in what English city this happened but rugby is an offshoot of football and Ive read this on more than one or two occasions.

It was at a Public School, in err Rugby.

MarchDub

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It was at a Public School, in err Rugby.

Oh that settles it then - it was definitely the result of cheating.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

Oh that settles it then - it was definitely the result of cheating.

And a ball by definition is round , and a rugby thing is an oblong.

jonniebgood1

losthorizon wrote: »

Rugby originated I think from football (soccer) and was a result of a player cheating by picking up the ball during the match and running for the line. I cant remember for the life of me in what English city this happened but rugby is an offshoot of football and Ive read this on more than one or two occasions.

It is a romantic ideal but supposed in many quarters to be apocryphal. The origins in the town of Rugby would seem to be obvious given the name of the game.

CDfm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

It is a romantic ideal but supposed in many quarters to be apocryphal. The origins in the town of Rugby would seem to be obvious given the name of the game. In reference to some of the comments there is alot more cheating in soccer and Gaelic games AFAIK.

I know rugby is a modern game but there were variations of gaelic football that transferred to Aussie Rules and American Football.

Methinks there is a bit more to be said of an upper class copy of a "faction fight"/blood sport about rugby.

CiaranC

Organised soccer in Ireland can trace it's historical roots to 1878. It is widely accepted that the history of Irish soccer began with Belfast merchant John McAlery. McAlery was on his honeymoon in Edinburgh, Scotland on his honeymoon when he saw his first organised football match. He was taken by the game and decided to introduce association football to Ireland by inviting two football teams from Scotland, Queens Park and Caledonians, to play an exhibition game at Ulster Cricket Grounds in Ballynafeigh on the 24th October 1878. Queens Park won the football match 3-2.

John McAlery went on to form the first known football club in Ireland when he established Cliftonville in 1879. He placed the following advertisement in the News Letter and the Northern Whig:

CLIFTONVILLE ASSOCIATION FOOTBALL CLUB
(Scottish Association Rules)

GENTLEMEN DISIROUS OF BECOMING MEMBERS of the above club will please communicate with

J.M.McAlery, 6, Donegall Street or
R.M.Kennedy, 6, Brookevale Terrace, Antrim Road

OPENING PRACTICE TO-DAY AT 3-30

Cliftonville's first match was 1-2 defeat to Quidnunces on 29th September 1879. The club's first victory was on 1st November 1879 when Cliftonville beat Knock 2-0.

On November 18th, 1880 in Queens Hotel in Belfast, the Irish Football Association (IFA) was established. The founding members were all from Northern Ireland, and the clubs were Alexander (Limavady), Avoniel, Cliftonville, Distillery, Knock, Moyla Park, and Oldpark. The first competition introduced by the IFA was the Irish Cup and the inaugural winners were Moyla Park, who beat Cliftonville 1-0 in the 1800-01 season. It would take a further ten years before the establishment of an Irish football league.

The first meeting of the Irish Football League took place in the Belfast Estate Office of the Marquess of Dufferin and Ava on the 14th March 1890. The founding member clubs were Clarence, Cliftonville, Distillery, Glentoran, Linfield, Milford, Oldpark, and Ulster. The first president of the Irish Football League was M McNiece of Cliftonville.

Because of John McAlery's involvement in the history of Irish soccer Ireland's second city, Belfast, was the home of the sport. Every other sport in Ireland had it's headquarters in Dublin.
First Irish Soccer International Match

Ireland played it's first international match on 18th February 1882 (although some reports suggest that it was 30th January) at Bloomfield Park in front of an attendance of 2,500. England provided the opposition and Ireland lost heavily by a scoreline of 0-13. This remains Ireland's heaviest defeat in and international football match. The team representing Ireland on that day was; James Hamilton (Knock), John McAlery - Captain (Cliftonville), Don Rattray (Avoneil), David Martin (Cliftonville), John Hastings (Knock), James Buckle (Cliftonville), Billy McWha (Knock), John Davison (Cliftonville), John Sinclair (Knock), Andy Dill (Knock), Davy McCaw (Malone).

A week later Ireland played Wales in the second Irish international match and although the match ended in another heavy defeat, 1-7, the match was notable for one particular reason. Sammy Johnson (Distillery) scored the first Irish goal at international level. Ireland's first result at international level was a 1-1 home draw with Wales on 17th March 1883. William Morrow (Moyola) scored the Irish goal. Ireland's first international victory came at the 16th attempt when Wales were beaten 4-1 in Belfast.

http://www.soccer-ireland.com/irish-football-history/

losthorizon

The thing is if Cliftonville were the first club (Im not doubting it) then what about Knock and Quidnunces who would seem to have already have been playing according to that article.

Its also interesting to note that Cliftonvilles support now is mainly nationalist.

CiaranC

losthorizon wrote: »

The thing is if Cliftonville were the first club (Im not doubting it) then what about Knock and Quidnunces who would seem to have already have been playing according to that article.

Its also interesting to note that Cliftonvilles support now is mainly nationalist.

http://www.cliftonvillefc.net/history_chapter1

Quidnunces were actually a rugby team, Knock were a cricket/lacrosse club. Mr McAlery apparently helped both set up football teams after he had formed his own, and then went on to set up the IFA.

As far as I know, and I may be wrong, Cliftonville became "nationalist" pretty much completely because of where they are located in Belfast. As areas became increasingly segregated along sectarian lines, there were few or no local fans from the unionist tradition to attend matches when the club started its revival in the early 1970s. Not much has changed.

_blank_

MarchDub wrote: »

Oh that settles it then - it was definitely the result of cheating.

No it wasn't. Categorically not.

Soccer and Rugby are offshoots of the games which was played at various Public Schools in England in and around the 1850s.

When lads from these schools came to the big colleges, like Cambridge and Oxford and wanted to play their game, there would be arguments and meetings as to which rules from which school would be followed.

Some of the lads wanted to allow certain rules, some wanted to disallow them, one of the most contentious was the use of the hands to propel the ball (another was the allowing, or not, of "hacking" - kicking your opponent in the shins). There are recorded events where one half would be played under one set of rules, and the second half played under another.

Eventually, some codified rules were agreed upon and the Football Association was set up (as we all know the word "Soccer" is short for Association), the people who didn't want to adhere to this codification went their separate ways and codified Rugby.

Your story of a lad cheating is apocraphal, and actually comes from an advertisement which was televised in the late 80s or early 90s, which showed the exact scenario you describe.

MarchDub

Des wrote: »

No it wasn't. Categorically not.

Soccer and Rugby are offshoots of the games which was played at various Public Schools in England in and around the 1850s.

When lads from these schools came to the big colleges, like Cambridge and Oxford and wanted to play their game, there would be arguments and meetings as to which rules from which school would be followed.

Some of the lads wanted to allow certain rules, some wanted to disallow them, one of the most contentious was the use of the hands to propel the ball (another was the allowing, or not, of "hacking" - kicking your opponent in the shins). There are recorded events where one half would be played under one set of rules, and the second half played under another.

Eventually, some codified rules were agreed upon and the Football Association was set up (as we all know the word "Soccer" is short for Association), the people who didn't want to adhere to this codification went their separate ways and codified Rugby.

Your story of a lad cheating is apocraphal, and actually comes from an advertisement which was televised in the late 80s or early 90s, which showed the exact scenario you describe.

You're answering the wrong poster - that was not my story or in my post at all. I was just making a joke based on another poster's comment.

You do have to follow these threads carefully...

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

You're answering the wrong poster - that was not my story or in my post at all. I was just making a joke based on another poster's comment.

You do have to follow these threads carefully...

Thank god for that, I thought you were going to create an international incident by repeating that an Anglican Clergyman would lie and cheat.

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

Thank god for that, I thought you were going to create an international incident by repeating that an Anglican Clergyman would lie and cheat.

No not that - I have little to no interest in the history of rugby - just trying to keep Des straight on which poster said what. Bad enough that I sometimes have to defend what I say - but having to answer for someone else 's post, well that's beyond the Pale.

And we all know that Dubs never went beyond the Pale - except at their peril.