Unite ballot for strike over sale of ESB

markpb

IrishTimes.com wrote:

The Unite trade union said it plans to ballot its members at ESB for industrial action up to and including withdrawal of labour over the proposed sale of the company.

Maybe I'm missing something but why would the workers strike because a small part of their company is being sold? My company has been MBO'd, IPOd, de-listed and finally put into voluntary pre-pack administration and restructuring since I started here several years ago and none of it affected me. It would certainly never have occurred to me to strike.

Can someone explain to me what's going on, preferably without resorting to insulting people?

hmmm

markpb wrote: »

It would certainly never have occurred to me to strike.

I presume, as per previous, that the greasing of palms with silver is the ultimate aim here. Beady eyes are looking enviously at what Eircom workers got.

20Cent

They are right to strike. Anything sold off in these fire sales should be made untenable with strikes and boycotts.

markpb

20Cent wrote: »

They are right to strike. Anything sold off in these fire sales should be made untenable with strikes and boycotts.

You mean they should strike in case the taxpayer gets bad value or because they empathise with the value of their company?

20Cent

markpb wrote: »

You mean they should strike in case the taxpayer gets bad value or because they empathise with the value of their company?

Neither.
Think my post is pretty clear.

Mr.Micro

The Government needs to raise money. Selling off a portion of the ESB will do that, I do not see why some workers should strike.....unless they are afraid of getting a dose of reality and losing their €75 K plus salaries a year.

Foghladh

I'd say they're fearful it'll lead to further privatisation of the company. A private sector company won't keep up the current levels of pay and benefits nor will they be as reluctant to strip any excess in terms of staffing.

loremolis

Mr.Micro wrote: »

The Government needs to raise money. Selling off a portion of the ESB will do that, I do not see why some workers should strike.....unless they are afraid of getting a dose of reality and losing their €75 K plus salaries a year.

I think you've got it in one.

Semi-state means self contained and answerable to nobody in terms of the scale of salaries and bonuses.

If private business gets involved then value for money comes into the equation and the unions know this.

I think it was Brendan Ogle who said that if someone wanted to address the pay levels in the ESB then they would be doing it in the dark.

20Cent

The ECB/IMF want to take assets, real things as payments for debts we don't actually owe them in the first place. Any sales should be made untenable by whatever means so that they are forced to face the real issue which is cancelling the debt we don't owe anyway.

thebman

A bad deal for everyone if ESB is privatised IMO. We have much better assets to privatise.

Ones that could be much more profitable in private hands and are not serving any purpose for the state and aren't even profitable.

Foghladh

thebman wrote: »

A bad deal for everyone if ESB is privatised IMO. We have much better assets to privatise.

Ones that could be much more profitable in private hands and are not serving any purpose for the state and aren't even profitable.

I suspect that the ones serving no purpose and that are unprofitable might not be so readily snapped up by the private sector.

Scrappylad

I believe the reason the staff would strike is to protect a company that has existed since the near foundation of state and which has never received a government bursary and has continuosly delivered profit to the state from being pulled apart at the seams.
The government seem willing to pay back billions in unsecured debt to speculators that invested in our banks and knew fully the risks at the time of investing. They did not seek a guarantee , they speculated , they lost in this investment but it is the Irish people and there assets ie the Esb for a start that are getting burned.

I for one hope to god the Esb staff make a stand on this, they will have my support. If someone does not say enough is enough we face ending up with the possible break up of the euro and no assets to call our own.

Manach

If I owe part of the state asset that is ESB, as a taxpayer, how can I sell it so as to pay my large ESB bill?

Scrappylad

Manach wrote: »

If I owe part of the state asset that is ESB, as a taxpayer, how can I sell it so as to pay my large ESB bill?

If only it was as simple as that, we sold assets and we the people got to decide were the money went there would some justification for it. Yourself and myself might just then get to pay off a few personal debts. If only .
But sadly this money will be used to make a tiny dent in a debt that isn't ours.
But we can hope

hmmm

Scrappylad wrote: »

and has continuosly delivered profit to the state from being pulled apart at the seams.

A public monopoly in a vital service would find it very hard not to return a "profit".

Scrappylad

hmmm wrote: »

Scrappylad wrote: »

and has continuosly delivered profit to the state from being pulled apart at the seams.

A public monopoly in a vital service would find it very hard not to return a "profit".

Profit that will leave the country if these companies are sold. I'm not saying the esb is perfect , perhaps far from it and it needs to change the way it is run. Other state companies deleiver less to the state and are as much a monopoly as the esb.
The Market is open by the way and the esb is no longer a monopoly .

donkey balls

Everyone going on about the break up of the ESB as a good thing would want to wake up and smell the coffee as if privatization will lead to lower costs, just say a private equity firm got hold of it they would asset strip the company sell off what they can to make a quick buck,This year the ESB took a load of apprentice sparks (from private firms which let them go)under it's wing to enable them to finish off there apprenticeship so they could find work elsewhere some how I don't think any private company for that matter would do the same.
Now before people start saying that I'm an ESB employee on €75k I'm not and having worked in a private company which at one time was a leading Irish company only for it to be asset stripped each time it got sold I'm in a position to talk about it,As for the €75k salary bandied about my Mates work for them and no way do they earn that amount,The ESBI are considered one of the best companies in the world for operating&managing power stations etc do you think that a private company would have them based here or would they close the operations here and move them to another country with job losses here me thinks the latter.
Also if the ESB was sold off the employees would get a nice lump sum as they have shares in the company yet they don't want to cash in on what would be a substantial amount of $$$$$,I don't know how many times I've mentioned it here about the average wage being €75k as total crap take Ryanair for example approx 8000 staff throughout their network about half of that would be flight crew earning anything between €60/160k pa already the average wage will be skewed.

Dannyboy83

hmmm wrote: »

A public monopoly in a vital service would find it very hard not to return a "profit".

Particularly when they 'offer' the most expensive electricity in Europe :pac:
http://www.vaasaett.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/HEPI-Press-Release-June.pdf

Victor

Scrappylad wrote: »

I believe the reason the staff would strike is to protect a company that has existed since the near foundation of state and which has never received a government bursary and has continuosly delivered profit to the state from being pulled apart at the seams.

On the contrary, they have long benefitted from government guaranteed loans and rarely gave a dividend.

anymore

It is worth saying that the sale of telecom resulred in a massive transfer of wealth to the Telecom workers and a very poor service for tist customers. The public who biought eircom shares with a view to being long term shareholders also suffered losses and had thier shares confiscicated for a pittance.

anymore

donkey balls wrote: »

Everyone going on about the break up of the ESB as a good thing would want to wake up and smell the coffee as if privatization will lead to lower costs, just say a private equity firm got hold of it they would asset strip the company sell off what they can to make a quick buck,This year the ESB took a load of apprentice sparks (from private firms which let them go)under it's wing to enable them to finish off there apprenticeship so they could find work elsewhere some how I don't think any private company for that matter would do the same.
Now before people start saying that I'm an ESB employee on €75k I'm not and having worked in a private company which at one time was a leading Irish company only for it to be asset stripped each time it got sold I'm in a position to talk about it,As for the €75k salary bandied about my Mates work for them and no way do they earn that amount,The ESBI are considered one of the best companies in the world for operating&managing power stations etc do you think that a private company would have them based here or would they close the operations here and move them to another country with job losses here me thinks the latter.
Also if the ESB was sold off the employees would get a nice lump sum as they have shares in the company yet they don't want to cash in on what would be a substantial amount of $$$$$,I don't know how many times I've mentioned it here about the average wage being €75k as total crap take Ryanair for example approx 8000 staff throughout their network about half of that would be flight crew earning anything between €60/160k pa already the average wage will be skewed.

So give us examples of the gross wages for a few different categories in the ESB and we can judge fir our selves.

irishh_bob

loremolis wrote: »

I think you've got it in one.

Semi-state means self contained and answerable to nobody in terms of the scale of salaries and bonuses.

If private business gets involved then value for money comes into the equation and the unions know this.

I think it was Brendan Ogle who said that if someone wanted to address the pay levels in the ESB then they would be doing it in the dark.

if it takes gordon gekko to soften that faux socilists cough , i hope they flog the entire thing

irishh_bob

Scrappylad wrote: »

I believe the reason the staff would strike is to protect a company that has existed since the near foundation of state and which has never received a government bursary and has continuosly delivered profit to the state from being pulled apart at the seams.
The government seem willing to pay back billions in unsecured debt to speculators that invested in our banks and knew fully the risks at the time of investing. They did not seek a guarantee , they speculated , they lost in this investment but it is the Irish people and there assets ie the Esb for a start that are getting burned.

I for one hope to god the Esb staff make a stand on this, they will have my support. If someone does not say enough is enough we face ending up with the possible break up of the euro and no assets to call our own.

imagine that , a monopoly making a profit

Scrappylad

I was talking to an electrician in the esb today. He works on the networks side of the company . He says that the wage for an electrician scale from 32,000 per year to 48,000 per year depending on experience and promotion . He says a general worker would be paid alot less. And that a qualified linesman would be paid the same rate as an electrician but could not progress as far up the payscale because of qualifications, so after a maximum service of 40 years a linesman can only earn a maximum of approx 41,000.
He says most craft workers would be somewhere in the middle of the scale and no one is gauraunteed to reach the maximum payscale at the time of retirement.
Now these figures are not set in stone. I'm only saying what I hear from a trusted source. And I presume they don't include overtime etc..

Scrappylad

irishh_bob wrote: »

Scrappylad wrote: »

I believe the reason the staff would strike is to protect a company that has existed since the near foundation of state and which has never received a government bursary and has continuosly delivered profit to the state from being pulled apart at the seams.
The government seem willing to pay back billions in unsecured debt to speculators that invested in our banks and knew fully the risks at the time of investing. They did not seek a guarantee , they speculated , they lost in this investment but it is the Irish people and there assets ie the Esb for a start that are getting burned.

I for one hope to god the Esb staff make a stand on this, they will have my support. If someone does not say enough is enough we face ending up with the possible break up of the euro and no assets to call our own.

imagine that , a monopoly making a profit

I'm still assuming that the Market is open and therefore the esb is not a monopoly. But if you believe that somehow a monopoly can exist within an open Market that's fine.

thebman

Foghladh wrote: »

I suspect that the ones serving no purpose and that are unprofitable might not be so readily snapped up by the private sector.

Not talking about ones that serve no purpose, just ones not being run the way we want them to be like CIE.

They aren't profitable because they are badly managed not because they are inherently unprofitable and most companies can see that from a mile away.

Also since they aren't working in public ownership, the worst we can do is end up with the same level of service unlike the Eircom problem.

markpb

Scrappylad wrote: »

I'm still assuming that the Market is open and therefore the esb is not a monopoly. But if you believe that somehow a monopoly can exist within an open Market that's fine.

ESB Networks exist in a monpoly.

ESB Customer Supply operated as a monopoly for a long time until competition was allowed a few years ago.

markpb

nokia lady wrote: »

the esb give the govt 500,000,000e every year in dividends

What!?

Someone should tell ESB because they said in their last annual report

ESB is recommending a dividend of €94.4 million for 2009. This, plus a special interim dividend of €185 million approved by the ESB Board last October, brings the total dividend paid by ESB in 2009 to €279.4 million. Over the past eight years, the Company has paid dividends of €815 million to the Exchequer.

That's an impressive some of money but it's one fifth of the 500m you claim when you're giving out about other peoples uniformed opinions

markpb

nokia lady wrote: »

as for as i know(correct me if im wrong)last yr was 2010?you quoted 2009!?!?..thank you...and take it from me it is 500aproxx

You're right, I did accidentally quote the 2009 report. The 2010 report saysin:

The Board is recommending a final dividend of 3.89 cent per unit stock or €77 million in aggregate.

If you're sure that they managed to slip an extra €423m to the government, then the chairman of the board is going to be facing some awkward legal questions about why their annual report only says €77m.

loremolis

nokia lady wrote: »

as for as i know(correct me if im wrong)last yr was 2010?you quoted 2009!?!?..thank you...and take it from me it is 500aproxx

Proof would be nice.

Also, the Government has funded the ESB regularly since its inception.

Call it a subsidy, subvention or a loan, they got buckets of money.

Only in recent years have they paid a dividend and it's certainly not €500 million a year.

donkey balls

So the ESB did or did not pay the govt €500mil in dividend? but they paid some thing if it was sold off do you think that the company who buys it would give the govt a cent,Who remembers when o Leary put in a bid for EI they had more cash reserves than what o Leary was offering in the bid,I know people are hurting with either losing their jobs or lucky to have one but paying bankers tax and soon to be gamblers tax on insurance premiums ala Quinn insurance,Myself I fall into the first category having lost my job 3yrs ago and struggling to find a full time job(managed to get temping work) and as someone who has worked in the private industry since leaving school I would be opposed to the selling off the ESB.
Jaysus I never knew Ireland had so many Tory boys here wanting to sell off every thing to make a quick buck and not think about the future.

donkey balls

I can only vouched for my mate with OT he earns about €40/44k pa

the groutch

maybe I'm being a bit naive, but why not sell loss-making semi-states, like CIE, Dublin Bus & RTE, all of which are a bottomless money pits?
it makes no sense to sell a profitable asset like the ESB

whatstherush

donkey balls wrote: »

I can only vouched for my mate with OT he earns about €40/44k pa

Gross or net

donkey balls

whatstherush wrote: »

Gross or net

Gross and to be honest with the other half not working now they are finding it hard at times with bills etc,Put it this way I hardly ever see them out at the weekends these days.

jonsnow

nokia lady wrote: »

but if the workers are well paid its because they are highly trained/skilled in a very dangerous industry and after training and spending money on them esb dont want people leaving..so the longer you stay the harder it is to leave(like most companys in the private sector also)..i hate to see uninformed comments on here from people that dont know the facts.thank you..

The fact is these "highly trained" ESB workers failed to follow flood mitigation practices such as the sequential release of flood waters from above the River Lee Inniscarra Dam leading to the disastrous flooding of cork city.Elderly people in affected areas still have dehumidifiers going 24/7 to draw the moisture out of the walls and are paying a fortune in ESB bills for the privilege.No public inquiry, no public report - protected from on high.These workers saw fit to give themselves payrises in the midst of an economic disaster unprecedented in this country and after causing untold millions worth of damage and hardship to the people of cork.

The government are selling a minority stake.I don,t think we are going to have an enron situation with a labour minister at the helm - so I for one have less than zero sympathy for this incompetent, spoilt, cosseted and intransigent workforce.

D1stant

Scrappylad wrote: »

Now these figures are not set in stone. I'm only saying what I hear from a trusted source. And I presume they don't include overtime etc..

Eh the 'overtime etc' is probably fairly significant. 'Overtime etc' is pretty non-existant in the private sector

I see ESB networks as a strategic asset (like TE was) and so would be against any sale of that part. But it seems that the only way the Govt can beat the unions is to sell the company.. which is the worst of white flags

Until the Govt grows balls and confronts the PS unions this country is not recovering.

Tea drinker

D1stant wrote: »

Eh the 'overtime etc' is probably fairly significant. 'Overtime etc' is pretty non-existant in the private sector

I see ESB networks as a strategic asset (like TE was) and so would be against any sale of that part. But it seems that the only way the Govt can beat the unions is to sell the company.. which is the worst of white flags

Until the Govt grows balls and confronts the PS unions this country is not recovering.

I am also in favour of keeping strategic assets, but not at any cost. ESB would be best kept under gov ownership but it seems impossible to deal with the ESB and the PS unions in any meaningful sense of the word.
No one wants low wage workers to suffer huge cuts, trim the fat ruthlessly and sensibly and we can move on to the next problem. How do we support (or force) the gov to do this? How can we make the PS unions accept some fair agreement?