Bye-Law Query

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Hi,
Not sure if this is the correct section but;
If the information given in the 'Definitions' of Bye-Laws is incorrect who do I inform/complain to?

Thanks

Scealta_saol

I suppose who the Bye Law relates to? Like the County Council if it's a Local Authority Bye-law?

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Scealta_saol wrote: »

I suppose who the Bye Law relates to? Like the County Council if it's a Local Authority Bye-law?

Its a state body (and a very unresponsive one at that).

Victor

where do i go from here wrote: »

If the information given in the 'Definitions' of Bye-Laws is incorrect who do I inform/complain to?

Almost by definition you are somewhere between curious and wrong. The purpose of the definitions section is to redefine things.

If you are aware of a discrepancy, the secretary and/or law officer of the relevant organisation would be the appropriate person to contact.

Would you like to share the definition?

Where To

According to the NRA, a bus is described as a vehicle;

"which is constructed or adapted to carry 8 or more passengers and their effects"
http://www.nra.ie/GeneralTollingInformation/StatutoryNotices/
(click on any of the bye law pdfs)

However, European and Irish law both define a 'bus' as a passenger vehicle with a minimum of ten seats i.e. 9 passengers plus driver;

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/revised-vehicle-classification.html

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32001L0116:en:NOT

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0037/sec0002.html#sec2

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/act/pub/0005/sec0102.html

to name a few.

As a resultof this cars with 9 seats (8 passengers plus driver) are being (wrongly I am sure) charged as 'buses' on toll roads.

dermot_sheehan

The legal system can have varying definitions of a "bus".

What is considered a "bus" in toll bye laws might be different then what is considered a "bus" under the finance acts.

The reason the toll bye laws have a definition section and don't just have "bus" is to clarify or change the definition.

Where To

dermot_sheehan wrote: »

The legal system can have varying definitions of a "bus".

What is considered a "bus" in toll bye laws might be different then what is considered a "bus" under the finance acts.

The reason the toll bye laws have a definition section and don't just have "bus" is to clarify or change the definition.

However the Local Government (Toll Roads) Act, 1979 states that a toll scheme shall;
(c) indicate the classes of vehicles which and other road users who will be charged tolls in respect of such use,
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1979/en/act/pub/0034/sec0003.html#sec3

It doesn't state they can 'make up' their own classes of vehicles.

If that was the case, whats to stop them making a bye-law defining a motorcycle as a goods vehicle?

dermot_sheehan

where do i go from here wrote: »

However the Local Government (Toll Roads) Act, 1979 states that a toll scheme shall;
(c) indicate the classes of vehicles which and other road users who will be charged tolls in respect of such use,
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1979/en/act/pub/0034/sec0003.html#sec3

It doesn't state they can 'make up' their own classes of vehicles.

If that was the case, whats to stop them making a bye-law defining a motorcycle as a goods vehicle?

Repealed by the Roads Act, 1993
S. 61(3(a) of which provides:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0014/print.html#sec61

Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1), bye-laws under this section may—
specify the amounts of the tolls that shall be charged, or the scales and other provisions by reference to which they shall be charged, in respect of the use of a toll road by vehicles and road users of each class specified in the bye-laws and may specify different such amounts by reference to such circumstances or combinations of circumstances (whether relating to classes of vehicles or road users, seasons of the year, days of the week, times of the day or otherwise) as the road authority may consider appropriate

Where To

'specified' - to state explicitly or in detail.

So the bye-law is 'specifying' that a vehicle can be legally defined as two completely different classes of vehicle at the same time?

To me, that seems the same as legally defining a person as both a 'man' and a 'woman'.

dermot_sheehan

The bye laws can specify different classes, in this case the class "bus" which is defined as "x" and for which the toll is "y".

The only argument you could make that the bye laws were ultra vires would be if the parent legislation (in this case the Roads Act) had a different definition or required that a "bus" be defined in a certain way.

For example, s. 62 of the Roads Act exempts gardai, defence forces and fire brigade vehicles from tolls. The toll bye laws also happen to exempt them, but if the bye laws didn't, section 62 would override them.

Victor

Dermot is right. As I said:

Victor wrote: »

The purpose of the definitions section is to redefine things.

Legally, the could have called the category "widgets", "Aardvarks", "PB123s", "Veicles which is constructed or adapted to carry 8 or more passengers and their effects" or whatever else they liked, they just happened to call them "buses".

Where To

Fair enough, I had always thought that the classification of vehicles was subject to EU type-approval.

Thank you both for your time.

Victor

Imagine we work for the same comapny and we are both issued with new contracts.

Your contract defines you as "the employee". However, my contract defines me as "the employee". On your assertion, you and I would then be the same person, when we aren't.

The definition is for the purpose of the particular document, it isn't a dictionary defintion made law.

For example, in the Roads Act 1992, "road" means everything from boundary to boundary, whereas common sense says the road extends from kerb to kerb, excluding the verge, footpath, etc.