Best camera for 400 euro

thegalavanter

Hi All,

Pretty simple really. I've set myself about 400 euro to spend on a camera for my travels if and when they happen. I'm open to anything. Its for semi-pro HD video recording that I want it, but seen as I don't want to carry a separate stills camera on my travels I'd rather buy one good stills camera than a camcorder. 2 in 1 sounds practical and most stills cameras do a good video job these days too. Other than this I want 1080p 30fps and 720p at 50fps ideally and having an external microphone input would be great as well. I don't need anymore than 7x or 8x optical zoom. 26mm or less is a must though.

The Canon Eos 550d or 600d are ideal but just too expensive at 600-700 euro retail depending on where you buy. I might stretch to 450 if the camera is right.

Any suggestions? Cheers in advance!

5uspect

At that budget you're going to have to consider secondhand if you want an SLR that shoots HD video. This before you consider a decent lens.

magicbastarder

yep, semi-pro video on an entry level DSLR is a lot to ask.

thegalavanter

Anyone try the Nikon D3000? I had a quick go in the shop and it was extremely slow to focus. The FZ150 looks great, however, its not a DLSR. Anyone have a chance to check it out?

kfish2oo2

The D3000 doesn't do video, and autofocus on DSLR's within your price range does not exist. Anyone who does DSLR video work learns how to do manual focus control, even when working with 5D MKII's and other high end DSLRs.

Search e-bay for a 550D kit. You should be able to find one for about e450. The 550D does video very well and fits your requirements. I'd recommend you pick up a 50mm f/1.8 too - its a cheap but beautiful lens that has a pleasingly shallow depth of field. Personally any video work I do is on the 50mm (even though the wider angle of my 18-55mm would be more versatile) because the 50mm just looks so much better.

EDIT: The Lumix Gx range is also a popular one with video makers. The Lumix G2 and G3 should be within your price range, and they typically are bundled with 14-42mm lenses which seems very versatile.

thegalavanter

kfish2oo2 wrote: »

The D3000 doesn't do video, and autofocus on DSLR's within your price range does not exist. Anyone who does DSLR video work learns how to do manual focus control, even when working with 5D MKII's and other high end DSLRs.

Search e-bay for a 550D kit. You should be able to find one for about e450. The 550D does video very well and fits your requirements. I'd recommend you pick up a 50mm f/1.8 too - its a cheap but beautiful lens that has a pleasingly shallow depth of field. Personally any video work I do is on the 50mm (even though the wider angle of my 18-55mm would be more versatile) because the 50mm just looks so much better.

EDIT: The Lumix Gx range is also a popular one with video makers. The Lumix G2 and G3 should be within your price range, and they typically are bundled with 14-42mm lenses which seems very versatile.

My main issue with something like a 14-42mm lens that is only 3x optical zoom which is nothing. I'd preferably like at least 7 or 8x optical zoom (i.e. 18-135mm).

5uspect

thegalavanter wrote: »

My main issue with something like a 14-42mm lens that is only 3x optical zoom which is nothing. I'd preferably like at least 7 or 8x optical zoom (i.e. 18-135mm).

And end up with terrible image quality as a result?

thegalavanter

5uspect wrote: »

And end up with terrible image quality as a result?

How so? Its a 18-135mm DSLR lens were talking about here. Is the image quality diminished with a longer lens somehow? If so thats news to me.

CabanSail

The greater the range of a lens the more compromise needs to be made. This also becomes more of an issue as the circle of illumination gets larger. This is why a large range is easier to achieve in compacts and bridge cameras.

The trend also seems to be that when someone is new to using an SLR they equate a large focal length range to be better. Then as we mature the beauty of primes becomes apparent and we look back at those zooms and nod slowly with a wry smile.

magicbastarder

thegalavanter wrote: »

How so? Its a 18-135mm DSLR lens were talking about here. Is the image quality diminished with a longer lens somehow? If so thats news to me.

with your budget, you'd almost want to be paring features away, rather than adding them, especially if you expect semi-pro results. a lens with a long zoom range tends to be inferior optically to a lens with a short range, plus you get issues like lack of flexibility on the aperture (you will not get a fast aperture, so the lens will be harder to use in low light), and obviously lower build quality.

nager

thegalavanter wrote: »

Anyone try the Nikon D3000? I had a quick go in the shop and it was extremely slow to focus. The FZ150 looks great, however, its not a DLSR. Anyone have a chance to check it out?

I think you refering to the Nikon D3100. My brother has it and it seems to be a decent camera for what you're actually looking for - entry level DLSR.
The only thing is if you are using zoom in the video mode - you will hear the lens zooming in the recording - I'm not sure if it has an external mic socket?

thegalavanter

nager wrote: »

I think you refering to the Nikon D3100. My brother has it and it seems to be a decent camera for what you're actually looking for - entry level DLSR.
The only thing is if you are using zoom in the video mode - you will hear the lens zooming in the recording - I'm not sure if it has an external mic socket?

That only makes the noise if set to autofocus though right? I'd be only using the manual focus.

CabanSail wrote: »

The greater the range of a lens the more compromise needs to be made. This also becomes more of an issue as the circle of illumination gets larger. This is why a large range is easier to achieve in compacts and bridge cameras.



The trend also seems to be that when someone is new to using an SLR they equate a large focal length range to be better. Then as we mature the beauty of primes becomes apparent and we look back at those zooms and nod slowly with a wry smile.

So would you stick to the 18-55mm lens that comes with the camera? I'm looking at the EOS 600D now. It seems better than the Nikon D3100 and video is my main priority. I just wonder would it be akward (shakey) using the manual focus while filming.

I want the camera for travel use and dont want to carry multiple lens with me. I want some half decent zoom to capture animals etc. The other flip side is I could get the Panasonic FZ150 which has a 24mm lens, but has 24x zoom. The only thing bugging me is its not a DSLR and I wonder how much photo quality I'll lose out on. Which would you buy if it was your money?

5uspect

Without an external mic you're going to hear the lens rotate and the body is going to move as you rotate the barrel even if you have it on a tripod.

You still seem to think you're going to get good image quality on your budget. You would need to spend at least as much again on glass and consider going secondhand. You might just be better off just getting a camcorder.

magicbastarder

my advice always is that an entry level nikon is better bought with a 35mm f1.8 lens than with the 18-55mm kit lens.

the_tractor

thegalavanter wrote: »

The other flip side is I could get the Panasonic FZ150 which has a 24mm lens, but has 24x zoom. The only thing bugging me is its not a DSLR and I wonder how much photo quality I'll lose out on. Which would you buy if it was your money?

Bear in mind that with compacts and bridge cameras, when recording video, generally zoom is not available, i.e. you zoom to where you want, start to record, and if you want to zoom in or out you have to stop recording.
Some use digital zoom to get around that, but that's just s-h-i-t-e.

It might help if you tell us what your travel plans are.

If you want long zoom, 300mm or similar, then 450 euros will be nowhere near enough for DSLR and a lens with that reach. It probably would not be enough for a 300mm zoom lens on it's own.

kfish2oo2

5uspect wrote: »

Without an external mic you're going to hear the lens rotate and the body is going to move as you rotate the barrel even if you have it on a tripod.

First part is... sort of accurate - you might, sometimes, with extremely poor quality glass hear the rotation of the lens elements with internal mics - but I've never come across it. Use the manual focus on any of your lenses now and tell me if there's audible noise - if so, you'll hear it on the internal mic, if not you won't. The internal mics are extremely bad quality; they're generally not nearly sensitive enough to pick up that kind of noise, even in very quiet environments.

The second part makes me think you've never filmed with a DSLR. I've done quite a lot of filming and have never, ever had that issue, nor have I seen it on any of the very many DSLR videos I've watched (for personal and research use). I've never come across a focus or zoom ring with enough resistance to cause the entire camera body to rotate, nor would I ever expect to.

5uspect

kfish2oo2 wrote: »

First part is... sort of accurate - you might, sometimes, with extremely poor quality glass hear the rotation of the lens elements with internal mics - but I've never come across it. Use the manual focus on any of your lenses now and tell me if there's audible noise - if so, you'll hear it on the internal mic, if not you won't. The internal mics are extremely bad quality; they're generally not nearly sensitive enough to pick up that kind of noise, even in very quiet environments.

The second part makes me think you've never filmed with a DSLR. I've done quite a lot of filming and have never, ever had that issue, nor have I seen it on any of the very many DSLR videos I've watched (for personal and research use). I've never come across a focus or zoom ring with enough resistance to cause the entire camera body to rotate, nor would I ever expect to.

Does your tripod cost more than the change the OP will have out of his €400?

Both my 24-70L and 70-200L make an audible but smooth noise when focusing and zooming. The 24-70L in particular as the lens extends. I've just tried it on my 7D.
You do hear this on the built in mic, which is about an inch from the zoom ring.
You will also pick up the sound of your own fingers brushing off the camera if your not careful.

kfish2oo2

5uspect wrote: »

Does your tripod cost more than the change the OP will have out of his €400?

Both my 24-70L and 70-200L make an audible but smooth noise when focusing and zooming. The 24-70L in particular as the lens extends. I've just tried it on my 7D.
You do hear this on the built in mic, which is about an inch from the zoom ring.
You will also pick up the sound of your own fingers brushing off the camera if your not careful.

Well, I haven't used either lens but my 50mm and 18-55 don't make noise that the internal mic pics up. Also there are very few situations in which you'd use a large zoom for filming, its almost always primes.

Re movement: I was referring to handheld, but even a cheap tripod (like mine) wouldn't result in the kind of camera movement you're describing. Really, the zoom/focus rings would need to have incredible resistance to cause that kind of movement, and if thats the case there's an issue with your lens.

5uspect

My lenses are fine. What kind of movement have I actually described? All I said is that the body is going to move. I've seen this in the lab and in my personal usage.

My lenses are much bigger than your 50mm and 18-55 so there is a larger moment arm. I also imagine the zoom and focus rings are stiffer. I'll have to compare.

thegalavanter

Ok, I'm upping my budget to €650. I'd rather pay a little more for something worth having. I've been looking at the Canon 600D and I really like it. I also checked out the latest NEX 5N model, but its got a bad ticking noise when you move the camera and even with the known problem Sony cant fix this until the next model. Sony really annoy me like this. My last camera was a Sony HX9V and I went through two of them before giving up and getting my money back. Both had lens zoom issues that were also known to Sony. It seems they dont even bother to test their products properly.

Anyway, yeah I love the idea of the touch to focus on the NEX 5 but its deal breaker with the clicking issue. The 600D is fantastic but again its only got 18-55mm lens which I believe is only 29mm equivalent and the x3 zoom for DSLR's limits their shooting a lot. However, the 600D has a very impressive digital zoom feature which surprisingly holds its full 1080p quality which in digital zoom. The only catch is I think you need to engage it before you start filming which may be unpractical.

The basics of what I want:
720p @ 25fps and 50fps
1080p @ 24fps
7x optical zoom
24-26mm wide angle lens
Quiet lens so it doesnt affect the filming
Manual focus

5uspect

You're still better off going second hand. Get something like a 500D.

Most digital SLRs have a sensor that is physically smaller than 35mm film so what you get is smaller part of the image recorded. This crop factor is 1.6 for Canon and about 1.5 for Nikon. So an 18-55mm lens becomes 29-88mm. If you want a wider lens prepare to spend more.

You're not going to get a good 7x zoom lens for the money you have left after buying a 600D. You can get the 18-135 for about €350.

You're also going to need an external mic. The internal mic just isn't up to the job.

For the requirements you've listed you're going to have to inset a 1 somewhere in your budget. I'll let you guess where.

thegalavanter

5uspect wrote: »

You're still better off going second hand. Get something like a 500D.

Most digital SLRs have a sensor that is physically smaller than 35mm film so what you get is smaller part of the image recorded. This crop factor is 1.6 for Canon and about 1.5 for Nikon. So an 18-55mm lens becomes 29-88mm. If you want a wider lens prepare to spend more.

You're not going to get a good 7x zoom lens for the money you have left after buying a 600D. You can get the 18-135 for about €350.

You're also going to need an external mic. The internal mic just isn't up to the job.

For the requirements you've listed you're going to have to inset a 1 somewhere in your budget. I'll let you guess where.

What about the FZ150 bridge camera? They say it has a 25mm. Is that the film equivalant with bridge cameras or is it cropped? So would it be 25 x 1.6?

5uspect

thegalavanter wrote: »

What about the FZ150 bridge camera? They say it has a 25mm. Is that the film equivalant with bridge cameras or is it cropped? So would it be 25 x 1.6?

25 - 600mm (35mm equiv.)

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2011/8/26/panasonicfz150announcement_gallery#specs

thegalavanter

5uspect wrote: »

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2011/8/26/panasonicfz150announcement_gallery#specs

wow yeah. Thats pretty good then. I'll have to check out the difference in photo quality between that and the Canon 600D then.