Termination lecture at NUI

Irishchick

http://www.youthdefence.ie/latest-news/call-to-action-termination-of-pregnancy-masterclass-in-maynooth-next-friday/

I wonder why this lecture is being given to medics when they cannot legally perform the procedure here. ( although they can give advice I suppose)

Whats worse is that its being portrayed as a positive option

georgieporgy

the most dangerous place for a child to be is in its mother's womb, and the most dangerous place for a student to be, it would seem, is in a 'catholic' university.

Got to hand it to those Youth Defence kids. They're not afraid to call a spade a spade.

santing

Ah well, they must be looking to the future. It will only be a matter of time before the Irish are forced to say yes to abortion...

Currently we export our abortion problem, but with the changes in moral behavior in the last 20 years, I don't think it will take long before legalized abortion is acceptable by the majority of the Irish people.

But no matter what the law says, God says that the killing of (unborn) children is wrong.

fedor.2.

santing wrote: »

Ah well, they must be looking to the future. It will only be a matter of time before the Irish are forced to say yes to abortion...

Currently we export our abortion problem, but with the changes in moral behavior in the last 20 years, I don't think it will take long before legalized abortion is acceptable by the majority of the Irish people.

But no matter what the law says, God says that the killing of (unborn) children is wrong.

Does he? did he say it to you personally?

santing

fedor.2. wrote: »

Does he? did he say it to you personally?

Let's say "Thou shall not murder" - does that come close enough? You may have heard that command as well.

Irishchick

santing wrote: »

Currently we export our abortion problem, but with the changes in moral behavior in the last 20 years, I don't think it will take long before legalized abortion is acceptable by the majority of the Irish people.
.

I think if it came to a vote "no" would still be a majority.

Ickle Magoo

Irishchick wrote: »

I wonder why this lecture is being given to medics when they cannot legally perform the procedure here. ( although they can give advice I suppose)

They can legally perform the procedure here - but only under certain circumstances.

Irishchick

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

They can legally perform the procedure here - but only under certain circumstances.

If we are thinking of the same curcumstances then that is not considered abortion.

If a preganant woman is ill and they they do all they can to save mother and child but the child dies and has to be removed from the womb it is still not considered abortion.

The surgeons/medics did not intend to kill the child/ remove it from the womb.

El_Duderino 09

Irishchick wrote: »

If we are thinking of the same curcumstances then that is not considered abortion.

If a preganant woman is ill and they they do all they can to save mother and child but the child dies and has to be removed from the womb it is still not considered abortion.

The surgeons/medics did not intend to kill the child/ remove it from the womb.

I think that is an abortion. My mother had a miscarriage and the record said spontaneous abortion. She brought it up at the time and they told her that is what it's called.

Ickle Magoo

According to Irish law, abortion is legal if there is risk to the life of the woman...abortion that results as a side-effect from treatment is legal - and standard treatments that result in in-direct abortion have never been illegal...what the IMC views as professional misconduct is another thing...

Irishchick wrote: »

I think if it came to a vote "no" would still be a majority.

I'm not so sure, certainly I don't think that will be the case for much longer - wasn't there was a poll which showed 3 in 5 18-35 yr olds are in favour of legalisation...?

Irishchick

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I think that is an abortion. My mother had a miscarriage and the record said spontaneous abortion. She brought it up at the time and they told her that is what it's called.

In medical terms yes it is, because that is what happened but the niether the mother nor the doctor set out for that to happen. So in the eyes of the church it is not an abortion, just a tragic event that happens in life sometimes.

El_Duderino 09

Irishchick wrote: »

In medical terms yes it is, because that is what happened but the niether the mother nor the doctor set out for that to happen. So in the eyes of the church it is not an abortion, just a tragic event that happens in life sometimes.

So if it' just the bad abortion, and not the good abortion, that you don't like then why do you have a problem with them learning about the good abortion in a university? Sounds like the right place to learn about it.
As for the bad abortion, it is a medical procedure, surely it is normal for medical professionals to know about a procedure even if they don't agree with it.

If Catholics don't want to perform the procedure they don't have to specialise in that area. In fact they should leave it to non-Catholics to do. But not learning about it is hardly professional. Wouldn't you agree?

PDN

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

As for the bad abortion, it is a medical procedure, surely it is normal for medical professionals to know about a procedure even if they don't agree with it.

Performing an execution via lethal injection is a medical procedure. Should Irish doctors be trained in that too?

El_Duderino 09

PDN wrote: »

Performing an execution via lethal injection is a medical procedure. Should Irish doctors be trained in that too?

If it were in any sense relevant to them then absolutely. If they intend to work in that area it would be essential in I should think. A one day seminar on it would be a good idea in the interest of professional development.

Is that what you mean?

Fanny Cradock

What would be covered by this one day seminar?

Cossax

santing wrote: »

Let's say "Thou shall not murder" - does that come close enough? You may have heard that command as well.

Is that one of those 'do as I say and not as I do' commandments?

El_Duderino 09

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

What would be covered by this one day seminar?

Not much relatively I expect. A general overview for those possibly interested in pursuing it further. Similar to the depth I imagine the termination seminar covered.

Surely nobody thinks they can carry out an abortion procedure after the jobbie in Maynooth

Fanny Cradock

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Not much relatively I expect. A general overview for those possibly interested in pursuing it further. Similar to the depth I imagine the termination seminar covered.

Surely nobody thinks they can carry out an abortion procedure after the jobbie in Maynooth

I'm not sure I understand anything you wrote there. Why would a medical professional be expected to attend a seminar on an illegal procedure?

El_Duderino 09

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand anything you wrote there. Why would a medical professional be expected to attend a seminar on an illegal procedure?

They are not be expected to attend. As far as I know the seminar was voluntary. These are medical professionals we are talking about and the subject matter is within the field of medicine. It's not unusual for professionals to look into procedures which are carried out in countries other than their own. Whats not do understand?

Irishchick

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So if it' just the bad abortion, and not the good abortion, that you don't like then why do you have a problem with them learning about the good abortion in a university? Sounds like the right place to learn about it.
As for the bad abortion, it is a medical procedure, surely it is normal for medical professionals to know about a procedure even if they don't agree with it.

If Catholics don't want to perform the procedure they don't have to specialise in that area. In fact they should leave it to non-Catholics to do. But not learning about it is hardly professional. Wouldn't you agree?

Your twisting my words. I never reffered to anything as a bad or good abortion. The church doesnt see miscarraige as abortion so its not a "good" abortion.

In the eyes of the church abortion must have intent.

PDN

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If it were in any sense relevant to them then absolutely. If they intend to work in that area it would be essential in I should think. A one day seminar on it would be a good idea in the interest of professional development.

Is that what you mean?

That is exactly what I mean. So you appear to have no problem with students in an Irish institution learning stuff to enable them to carry out acts which are illegal in Ireland.

Maybe some enterprising soul could set up a College course in Torture Techniques. It would be good personal development for anyone contemplating a career in the Syrian or North Korean security services.

Bannasidhe

georgieporgy wrote: »

the most dangerous place for a child to be is in its mother's womb, and the most dangerous place for a student to be, it would seem, is in a 'catholic' university.

Got to hand it to those Youth Defence kids. They're not afraid to call a spade a spade.

NUI universities are covered by equality legislation and are not specifically 'catholic'. Given that many students are not only not Catholics, but not even Christian (there are large numbers of Muslim students) it is not reasonable to expect the religious ethos of one group to dominate in s State funded university.

El_Duderino 09

Irishchick wrote: »

Your twisting my words. I never reffered to anything as a bad or good abortion. The church doesnt see miscarraige as abortion so its not a "good" abortion.

In the eyes of the church abortion must have intent.

I read back on what you said, fair enough you were speaking from the catholics point of view. I didn't mean to twist your words. Rest assured you can call it anything you like. Out in the real world an abortion to save the mothers life is, of course, an abortion procedure regardless of what anyone prefers to call it.

El_Duderino 09

PDN wrote: »

That is exactly what I mean. So you appear to have no problem with students in an Irish institution learning stuff to enable them to carry out acts which are illegal in Ireland.

Maybe some enterprising soul could set up a College course in Torture Techniques. It would be good personal development for anyone contemplating a career in the Syrian or North Korean security services.

Well torture is not something I support personally but if a seminar were to be on in Maynooth, my knickers would remain untwisted. Surely they would explain the legality of any procedure they speak about.

If you mean interrogation techniques then sure if it is within the field of medicine, then yes. I am not sure if it would be relevant in Ireland though. Its not like its an option for doctors in Ireland to refer people for torture elsewhere so its not a great analogy. Would you agree? (also its a one day seminar we are speaking about).

On the other hand if Irish doctors were expected to know about torture for reference purposes then they would need to know about it. I don't think that's the case at the moment. So to the answer your question no. the reason is that its not relevant in any sense to Irish doctors unlike abortion.

Fanny Cradock

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well torture is not something I support personally but if a seminar were to be on in Maynooth, my knickers would remain untwisted. Surely they would explain the legality of any procedure they speak about.

If you mean interrogation techniques then sure if it is within the field of medicine, then yes. I am not sure if it would be relevant in Ireland though. Its not like its an option for doctors in Ireland to refer people for torture elsewhere so its not a great analogy. Would you agree? (also its a one day seminar we are speaking about).

On the other hand if Irish doctors were expected to know about torture for reference purposes then they would need to know about it. I don't think that's the case at the moment. So to the answer your question no. the reason is that its not relevant in any sense to Irish doctors unlike abortion.

You have given the nod to seminars on torture and execution for personal advancement. I wonder if there are any topics that you wouldn't allow?

The short talk I posted from J. Budziszewski entitled "Toleration and Moral Truth" seems pertinent.

yawnstretch

Good to know - thanks.

Abortion is illegal in Ireland because we still strive for morality.

El_Duderino 09

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You have given the nod to seminars on torture and execution for personal advancement. I wonder if there are any topics that you wouldn't allow?

The short talk I posted from J. Budziszewski entitled "Toleration and Moral Truth" seems pertinent.

Well I said it wasn't a great analogy and I said

[QUOTE=So to answer your question no.[/QUOTE]

and you read a nod from that. (Again you are free to take 'no to mean 'yes' but it will become confusing in the real world.)

Abortion seems to have a different meaning to what I understood and so does NO.
Not sure where to go from here.

Fanny Cradock

Merely asserting that I've twisted language on it's head after what you wrote doesn't help.

Well torture is not something I support personally but if a seminar were to be on in Maynooth, my knickers would remain untwisted. Surely they would explain the legality of any procedure they speak about.

If you mean interrogation techniques then sure if it is within the field of medicine, then yes. I am not sure if it would be relevant in Ireland though. Its not like its an option for doctors in Ireland to refer people for torture elsewhere so its not a great analogy. Would you agree? (also its a one day seminar we are speaking about).

On the other hand if Irish doctors were expected to know about torture for reference purposes then they would need to know about it. I don't think that's the case at the moment. So to the answer your question no. the reason is that its not relevant in any sense to Irish doctors unlike abortion.

If it were in any sense relevant to them then absolutely. If they intend to work in that area it would be essential in I should think. A one day seminar on it would be a good idea in the interest of professional development.

If you are actually saying "No, I don't think that doctors should attend seminars on torture and executions because both are illegal in this country" then we are probably largely in agreement. If you aren't saying that then my point stands. Perhaps you can actually clearly and concisely point out exactly what you mean. Again, is there anything off limits in your hypothetical seminars?

I wonder if you would have more of an issue with your doctor attending one of the seminars you mentioned or displaying a Catholic Medical Association plaque in their office?

El_Duderino 09

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Merely asserting that I've twisted language on it's head after what you wrote doesn't help.


If you are actually saying "No, I don't think that doctors should attend seminars on torture and executions because both are illegal in this country" then we are probably largely in agreement. If you aren't saying that then my point stands. Perhaps you can actually clearly and concisely point out exactly what you mean. Again, is there anything off limits in your hypothetical seminars?


I wonder if you would have more of an issue with your doctor attending one of the seminars you mentioned or displaying a Catholic Medical Association plaque in their office?

Practices which are completely irrelevant to Irish medical professionals should probably be completely off limits in practice because they are a waste of time to an extent. So both the examples you brought up would be in that category but on the other hand I don't get to tell other people what they can learn about in their spare time. So if they were to attend it that would be up to them.
Actually I went to a torture museum in Amsterdam once. Fascinating stuff even though I do not agree with or practice torture

Abortion on the other hand is relevant to Irish medical professionals because some abortion is legal in Ireland and it is an option for Irish citizens to travel to have an elective abortion procedure (whether we like it or not).


I don't get to have an issue with what associations my doctor is part of or what interest she has in her spare time so long as she does her job. Does that right to take issue come with being Catholic?

PDN

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I don't get to have an issue with what associations my doctor is part of or what interest she has in her spare time so long as she does her job. Does that come with being Catholic?

Maybe you should address that question to a Catholic rather than to Fanny?

El_Duderino 09

PDN wrote: »

Maybe you should address that question to a Catholic rather than to Fanny?

It's an open question, I don't mind who answers.