Your take on Scrum

Tim Robbins

Looking for some player feedback here.

Anyone here play Scrum, more specifically front row?

When you get penalised do you know what you are being penalised for or do you think there's a bit of "interpretation" going on?

Do you find it easy to say whip wheel a scrum and the ref not notice?
Do you find it easy to destabilise the scrum and the ref not notice?

Are there a lot scrum penalities in your games?

Your thoughts...

vinny chase

Good thread, be really interested in hearing prop's take on this.

I played scrum half for years, and from even that proximity to a scrum I felt you could tell which props were generally in the ascendency and who was struggling.

Always be some refs though with an interpretation that would baffle you!

Jawgap

Thought the front row was like the Magic Circle - explaining to outsiders how things are done leads to instant dismissal and ostracisation from the bretheren:)

As a ref, I find dealing with technically gifted props a "nightmare" - as their subtlety can be difficult to detect - the prop relying on and out-and-out strength and agression tends to be an easier prospect as their attempts to either frustrate their direct opponent and / or disrupt the scrum tend to be very obvious.

When I penalise someone, I tell them what it's for - they mightn't agree with it, but I think it's better to give an explanation than leave players wondering.

Pixelcraft

I find refs (j2) hit and miss, they either know the scrum very well or not at all. My main concern on refereeing is binding, for example the last game I played a new prop came on, bound on my arm pulling it down and I was penalised

CatFromHue

This will be an interesting thread. I don't subscribe to the "black arts" mentality of the scrum. It may be difficult to tell but I'm sure the props know exactly what they're doing and more importantly what they can get away with.

Art_Wolf

Generally I've been told the reason though when its on the other side of the scrum to the ref you may face issues if the opposing prop is pulling you down. Though in these cases, if you tell the ref, the ref will stand on your side of the scrum and keep and eye out.

Eoin

CatFromHue wrote: »

This will be an interesting thread. I don't subscribe to the "black arts" mentality of the scrum. It may be difficult to tell but I'm sure the props know exactly what they're doing and more importantly what they can get away with.

Of course they know, but importantly most refs don't as it can be very hard to spot. That's as far as the "black arts" bit goes, and as much as most people understand it to be - unless I missed your point?

Tim Robbins wrote:

Do you find it easy to say whip wheel a scrum and the ref not notice?

Depends. If the loosehead is moving forward legally, it's not that hard for the hooker and tighthead to crab over sideways a little to increase the angle. It can go either way though - even if a scrum is legitimately turned.

Tim Robbins wrote:

Do you find it easy to destabilise the scrum and the ref not notice?

I don't know if destabilise is the right word, but there's a lot that a ref will miss when it comes to binds, shoulders etc. Is a loosehead boring in, or does the tighthead have him turning in? Is the loosehead not binding, or has the tighthead stopped him from getting a long arm bind?

Often very hard to tell and it can be a 50/50 call.

What annoys me is the complete inconsistency about popping out of the scrum. I've said it time and time again here - any time I've done that is because either I'm getting mullered, but my second row is standing firm (hence pushing me up) - or the opposing prop is illegally driving upwards.

Either way - you pop up to stop your neck from being pushed into your chest too much, as it's a very unpleasant feeling - especially at hooker - and potentially very dangerous.

That said, I suppose it's going to lead to a lot of gamesmanship if you can just stand up whenever you're driving backwards.

Tim Robbins wrote:

Are there a lot scrum penalties in your games?

Not really, but I played mostly J4 last year where scrummaging is devalued because of the laws. When I was playing at J1, then there a few more penalties.

Incidentally - hookers should be included in the thread as well; it makes a big (but often ignored) difference if a hooker can scrummage as well. A hooker that can work his shoulders can put the opposing hooker in a good bit of bother.

Jawgap

I think any messing with binding is quite easy to spot - assuming you're on the right side of the scrum to spot it, likewise with boring in.

Judging why a player has popped up is a lot more subjective and I can see why players get frustrated if they get pinged for something caused by someone else's illegal behaviour.

From the refeeing perspective, I'm not sure how you get around it, other than by constantly varying your position at the scrum. I've seen some refs move quickly around a scrum once it's set, but its not something I'd do, but I don't adopt the same position for every scrum.

As for the increased penalty count at J1 as opposed to J4 - I wonder is that down to more messing in the scrum or a better class of ref being allocated to those games?

PhilTorres

Play tight-head prop myself. I always find once I put off my loose-head opposition then that will make the row behind him unstable and put massive pressure on the scrum. Of course this might sound basic but I don't mean just by simply having a stronger drive I mean by distracting him and riling him up so that he is not concentrating on the actual push. This is, of course, easier when the ref is on the opposite side of the scrum but one that I always see done is digging your chin into the side of the opponents face. It may not be the most gentlemanly thing to do put is painful as fcuk and definitely takes the other props concentration away from beating you in the scrum.

I dunno if this is the sort of stuff your looking for but in alot of games I have played, especially at senior level where I have to play against guys a couple of years older than me most times, where it is a sheer battle of wills and a mental battle in the scrums as there is little to choose between us physically.

On a side note, I remember when I played j1's first there was a hooker who I'd say was about 35-40 at the time but an absolute animal. Anyway he used to be able to vomit at will and when in the first scrum of the game he used to just get sick on the opposition front row. Really disgusting butput them off big style as i'm sure you can imagine

Eoin

Jawgap wrote: »

I think any messing with binding is quite easy to spot - assuming you're on the right side of the scrum to spot it, likewise with boring in.

I disagree, there's still a few things you can get away with even if it looks like you have a proper long bind.

And you might get pinged for boring in, when in fact, you've been turned in by the other prop!

Jawgap wrote: »

As for the increased penalty count at J1 as opposed to J4 - I wonder is that down to more messing in the scrum or a better class of ref being allocated to those games?

I think it's more because you can only drive a few yards at J4 level, and a wheeled scrum is reset rather than a turnover. While it's obviously still no harm to get the scrum advancing, it's still a lot less potent with those restrictions in place.

Conas

The scrum is a very tricky and hard thing to ref even with all the cameras and technology.

The hit is easy, it's what happens in the seconds after is what's tricky, but it's very important to watch the body position of both props and hookers. Easier said than done, but the best refs are really sharp on this. I don't mean to get all technical but there's a science to the scrum that's very interesting. Weight, Body position, height are all things that are overlooked, but are massive factors in something being illegal or not.

I love studying the scrum, and I just love the rules of the game. I may if I'm going to get my refs license from the IRFU.

Reloc8

Eoin wrote: »

Incidentally - hookers should be included in the thread as well; it makes a big (but often ignored) difference if a hooker can scrummage as well. A hooker that can work his shoulders can put the opposing hooker in a good bit of bother.

This is crucial to the scrum as a weapon. Part of the reason the French have been so dangerous of late is that Servat is big enough and strong enough with excellent technique to scrummage far more independently than a smaller weaker man, leaving his props with more freedom to do what they wish, whether that is defensively or aggressively.

CatFromHue

Eoin wrote: »

Of course they know, but importantly most refs don't as it can be very hard to spot. That's as far as the "black arts" bit goes, and as much as most people understand it to be - unless I missed your point?

My point was that commentators seem to gloss over the problems at scrum time with the whole "black arts" thing. Which is wrong.
This kinda leads to some refs not actually reffing the scrum and getting away with it. Is it Bryce Lawrence or Steve Walsh who very rarely reset but call a penalty instead? This isn't right and then leads to the situation where a team with a potentially weaker scrum making the scrum a lottery.
The scrum is a big part of the game and if the props know what they are doing then so should the refs. If it is a case of creating an extra official just to help with the scrum then so be it.

Tim Robbins

CatFromHue wrote: »

The scrum is a big part of the game and if the props know what they are doing then so should the refs. If it is a case of creating an extra official just to help with the scrum then so be it.

I remember doing loads of research into all the different ways a LH or TH will try to cheat. Talking to refs, players, watching videos etc etc. Then, in the prematch talk the following saturday for a J4 game, I told both front rows I don't want to see A because I know that means B, I don't want to see C because I know that means D,... E, F, G ... Z

The reply I got back was: "Jaysus haven't heard of half of those. Thanks for the tips!"

PhilTorres

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I remember doing loads of research into all the different ways a LH or TH will try to cheat. Talking to refs, players, watching videos etc etc. Then, in the prematch talk the following saturday for a J4 game, I told both front rows I don't want to see A because I know that means B, I don't want to see C because I know that means D,... E, F, G ... Z

The reply I got back was: "Jaysus haven't heard of half of those. Thanks for the tips!"

Wanna share some of these tips:D

durkadurka

This thread is GENIUS!

WeeBushy

An interesting point that someone made to me before was that refs tend not to have played prop in their playing days. Refs would generally be ex-backs (fatties can't keep up with play!). At a professional level this shouldn't matter too much because the refs should know the ins and outs of it anyway, but at lower levels (J2/3/4/5) where the refs wouldn't be of the same standard (not giving out) they wouldn't be as aware of some of the finer points of front row play and how the rules are bent.

stealinhorses

A lot also depends on the second rows. If one of them is noticeably stronger/positions himself better in scrums, it can screw up the whole set up and lead to a lot of turning and popping up. This doesn't usually happen at pro level, but can be a factor sometimes.

I'd also like to support someone else's point about the hooker's involvement in the whole mess. If he can stabilise the whole structure (with adequate help on his backside from second rows), the props are more free to maneuver their position.

Losty Dublin

The past two post here are spot on; that being that most refs have no practical experience of the goings in at scrum time and the skill/lack in the positionals of the second row and most crucially the hooker. Put simply, the hooker is the single most important man in the scrum so he/she has to be up to the job in hand. A strong solid scrum has to have the hooker solidly in place in order for props to bind onto and for the second rows to pack into, either for a drive or just for a stable put in. The second a hooker is loose in his bind, it opens his tight head up to boring while it makes his loose head vunerable to any amount of a wheel; bad binding penalties tend to eminate from this as well.