Hit a brick wall

tyview · 13-09-2011 11:01am #1

Hi

I've hit a brick wall when it comes to tracing any information on my grandfather Thomas O'Connor born 3rd Januaury 1916. He was illegitimate and his mothers name on the birth cert says Catherine o'Connor. The address says; Mount Merrion, Blackrock. I've tried looking on the census but I can't pin point anything specific. Thomas was not brought up by Catherine and my mom didnt even realise this until she was in her late 20's and she was told never to mention it again. Legal adoption was not an option and it was not an illegal adoption either, he always grew up as an O'Connor. Any I fighting a losing battle?

shanew · 13-09-2011 11:48am

what are the details of the informant on the cert ?

these can sometimes show a family member, or maybe a clue to the location..

The townland of MountMerrion (aka Callary) included Merville Hse, now part of UCD, Owenstown Hse, and the Fitzwilliam estate.

Shane

trad · 13-09-2011 12:13pm

Madonna House?

Don't know if it was in existance back then but there was a lot of Church owned propery in the Mount Merrion area and ther may well have been a Childrens home / Orphanage there.

tyview · 13-09-2011 3:48pm

The informant was from holles street where he was born. Interesting about the townland and madonna house, I'll check them out

Update re Madonna house: just googled and it appears it was built on merrion road int he 1950's and then moved to blackrock in the 70's (kind of glad it can't be there after what I've been reading)

shanew · 13-09-2011 4:23pm

I wonder if they got the townlands mixed up on the registration - Merrion Rd runs though a couple of townlands but not Mount Merrion. It does run through a townland named Merrion, which now includes St. Vincent's Hosp., Sydney Parade etc

There were at least two Convents in townland adjacent to Mount Merrion - one in Roebuck, the other in Mount Anville, but no orphanages that I've heard of.

Shane

CeannRua · 13-09-2011 5:47pm

I've read this a few times and I still don't really get it... Could Mount Merrion be the mother's address rather than an orphanage or other institution? There is a Kate Connor listed on both censuses for Mount Merrion (18 in 1911).

He could easily have been fostered rather than adopted.

What information are you hoping to find OP? Do you know who brought him up?

shanew · 13-09-2011 6:27pm

I'm assuming that col. 2 on the cert has Holles street as place of birth, and col. 5 has the 'Mount Merrion, Blackrock' address. This column is captioned 'name and dwelling place of father' so I presume it's been used in this case as place of residence of the mother.

I saw that Kate Connor on the census, she is in the right location, and single - so could fit

The detail that's throwing me a little is Blackrock ..Mount Merrion is in the civil parish of Taney, and the RC parish of Dundrum at that time.

Shane

zagmund · 13-09-2011 6:42pm

On the geography front (in case the OP isn't from Dublin), as shanew points out, the placenames don't quite match up.

As you come out of Dublin by Ballsbridge, you pass Merrion Church (not Mount Merrion) on the left and St Vincents Hospital on the right (although it wouldn't have been there at the time of this birth). A little inland is Montrose (now RTE) and Belfield (now UCD).

Continuing along from Merrion Church you head towards Booterstown, Williamstown (now essentially a small road of about 7 or 8 houses in the grounds of Willow Park), and then Blackrock.

Inland from this, after passing Belfield you hit Mount Merrion (the clue is in the Mount - it's a large hill). I'm pretty sure that in 1916 there was nothing on the hillside other than a small number of large houses. Straight down from here to the coast brings you to Blackrock, but it's a long way.

So, in general terms, it's hard to see somewhere being listed as both Blackrock & Merrion (or Mount Merrion) as indicated in the original post.

z

zagmund · 13-09-2011 6:51pm

I'm not convinced about some of the townlands indicated on the OSI maps, but if we are to believe this - http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,720492,729241,5,10 - then what I've just posted above isn't quite accurate.

According to this, there's a townland called Merrion between Booterstown Avenue and Merrion Avenue.

This is in addition to the current location of Merrion - junction of Nutley Avenue & Merrion Road. I'm still not convinced by the townland naming on OSI though (is this map-blasphemy ?). There's a place called Priesthouse near Belfield that I've never heard of.

Looking at the 25" map - http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,720306,729154,6,9 - it's clear that the area between Merrion Avenue & Booterstown Avenue was known as Merrion at the start of the century (at least I think that's the date for the 25" maps). This would (in my books) be consistent with the description of Merrion, Blackrock.

Although, looking back over your original post, I see it's listed as Mount Merrion, Blackrock. If you go inland from the link above - http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,719380,728742,6,9 - you reach the area known even then as Mount Merrion, but you can see that it's pretty sparse at the time and is mostly fields.

z

tyview · 13-09-2011 6:58pm

shanew wrote: »

I'm assuming that col. 2 on the cert has Holles street as place of birth, and col. 5 has the 'Mount Merrion, Blackrock' address. This column is captioned 'name and dwelling place of father' so I presume it's been used in this case as place of residence of the mother.

I saw that Kate Connor on the census, she is in the right location, and single - so could fit

The detail that's throwing me a little is Blackrock ..Mount Merrion is in the civil parish of Taney, and the RC parish of Dundrum at that time.

Shane

Yes exactly,holles street as the place of birth, and address of father is down as mount merrion, blackrock.

I saw that kate connor as well and I think I'll try and find out more on her.

The blackrock is the one thing that is stopping me!

@zagamund
Thats for the area info. I know in general the area but I'm a northsider. The maps are fascinating.

@ ceannrua
That Kate Connor is one I had seen so further investigation will be done. I guess I'm trying to dig up info on my grandfathers biological mother.
About the orphanage: I simply do not know if there even was one involved.

The details about Thomas are very sketchy indeed. Being an illegitimate child was obvious full of shame. Even as a married man himself he never talked about it. I really only know that he grew up from some point in his life with a Mrs Dunne (possibly kathleen). I have a feeling that he might have been in some sort of contact with Catherine but can't work out how?? Its been driving me a bit mad for a good six months.

tyview · 13-09-2011 7:26pm

I've just found the birth of one of the children from the Kate Connors family on irihs genealogy (On second thoughts may not be that one, watching tv and researching is not good)

http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/22d40b1220935

The address reads MOUNT MERRION BLACKROCK & HOLLES HOSP

CeannRua · 13-09-2011 7:27pm

Given that Mount Merrion was in the countryside (farmland) and in Co Dublin could Mount Merrion, Blackrock have been the postal address? Or would it be Dundrum for Mount Merrion?

Was Mount Merrion Ave called this name in 1916?

The occupation of Kate Connor's father in 1911 is 'farm servant' so Mount Merrion is possible as an address I would think.

I don't think the Merrion at junction of Nutley Ave and Merrion Rd as marked on the current OS is a townland. The name is written in capital letter plus lower case whereas all other townlands are written totally in capitals if I'm reading it right.

OP, if you know or have any sort of inclination where your grandfather went to national school, if you can get the school register (not the rollbook where only the children's names are recorded) there should be a guardian listed for him (normally whoever the child was living with). Best place to look is the register he was listed in when he started school. There is normally a register of infants at the beginning where bio details are recorded. Have you tracked down a baptism for him - maybe the hospital if parishes have yielded nothing?

shanew · 13-09-2011 7:37pm

Postal address for Mount Merrion was Dundrum.

Merrion Avenue and Merrion Road had the same names in 1916. Neither are in the townland of Mount Merrion.

I mentioned the townland of Merrion earlier - it's where Vincent's Hosp. is located. Priesthouse is beside this and opposite side of the N11 from UCD

edit : just noticed there's a 2nd townland named Merrion to the North of Merrion Ave.

Shane

zagmund · 13-09-2011 7:42pm

CeannRua wrote: »

Was Mount Merrion Ave called this name in 1916?

I don't think the Merrion at junction of Nutley Ave and Merrion Rd as marked on the current OS is a townland. The name is written in capital letter plus lower case whereas all other townlands are written totally in capitals if I'm reading it right.

Yeah, I saw the difference in typeface or font or whatever it's called when it came to modern day Merrion/Nutley, so it may not technically be a townland. But, given that Merrion Church & the Merrion Shopping Centre are there, it's definitely where people would point you to if you asked for Merrion these days.

According to the OSI map, Merrion Avenue was so called back in the days of the 6" maps - 1830s-ish as far as I know.

z

shanew · 13-09-2011 7:46pm

I checked the townland Index and there are two separate townlands named Merrion :

Townland : Merrion
Area : 197 acres
Civil Parish : Donnybrook
Barony : Dublin
PLU/Registration District : Dublin South

Townland : Merrion
Area : 107 acres
Civil Parish : Booterstown
Barony : Rathdown
PLU/Registration District : Rathdown

(the townland database has the area incorrect for 2nd entry)

I think a location off [Mount] Merrion Avenue is more likely as that could be considered Blackrock.

Shane

CeannRua · 13-09-2011 8:04pm

It's interesting that the Irish Genealogy entry shows the same quirk of address. Definitely worth checking out that Kate Connor.

Zagmund, I don't really think it matters where people would say Merrion is nowadays - it's 1916 that matters surely!

OP, meant to say you could try here: http://www.fingalcoco.ie/library/fingalarchives/
and ask about fostering records. If your grandfather was fostered through the public system there might be something there. It is possible he could still have been in contact with Catherine though fostered.

zagmund · 13-09-2011 8:05pm

CeannRua wrote: »

Zagmund, I don't really think it matters where people would say Merrion is nowadays - it's 1916 that matters surely!

Agreed about 1916. I was only clarifying my description of it being regarded as Merrion now.

z

shanew · 13-09-2011 8:14pm

The baptism and the 1911 census records certainly match up.. looks like that family at least, referred to their address in Mount Merrion that way.

Other than Merville and Owenstown, almost all the townland was part of the Fitzwilliam estate so my guess is that's where James may have worked.

Shane

CeannRua · 13-09-2011 8:34pm

Part of census return for Kate Connor's father 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000233740/

Is the St Thomas Church the one at bottom of Foster Ave at junction of Stillorgan Rd? Does placement on form like this indicate they were close by or just in same townland

Edit: if it is the same family of course...

zagmund · 13-09-2011 8:45pm

Here's the return for the house in 1901 - http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Dundrum/Mount_Merrion_or_Callery/1315817/

And in 1911 - http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Dundrum/Mount_Merrion_or_Callary/94296/

There's a Kate aged 8 in 1901 & 18 in 1911. This would have her ~23 in 1916.

z

[edit] I got my years wrong originally, spotted by ceannrua

CeannRua · 13-09-2011 8:47pm

That's 1901 you have there Zagmund. She's 18 in 1911

shanew · 13-09-2011 9:06pm

CeannRua wrote: »

Part of census return for Kate Connor's father 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000233740/

Is the St Thomas Church the one at bottom of Foster Ave at junction of Stillorgan Rd? Does placement on form like this indicate they were close by or just in same townland
...

yes St Thomas Church the one at bottom of Foster Ave.

The listing order on the returns is not defined, but it seems likely that the [O']Connor family might have lived nearby. The only problem is the c1890s OSI map doesn't show any houses near to the church, although they could have been built soon after...

Other than the big estates - most of the smaller houses were round the edge of the townland i.e. Stillorgan Rd., Foster Ave, part of Mount Anville, part of Kilmacud Rd. (Lwr)

S

CeannRua · 13-09-2011 9:43pm

There looks to be a great big collection of Pembroke material in the National Archives so there may be an estate map in there somewhere if the OP wants to look into it (all 232 pages of it!!): http://www.nationalarchives.ie/PDF/PembrokeEstatePapers.pdf

shanew · 13-09-2011 10:03pm

also some details on the townland and estate here : http://www.mountmerrion300.ie/

Shane

pinkypinky · 14-09-2011 8:48am

CeannRua wrote: »

OP, meant to say you could try here: http://www.fingalcoco.ie/library/fingalarchives/
and ask about fostering records. If your grandfather was fostered through the public system there might be something there. It is possible he could still have been in contact with Catherine though fostered.

This will only be for the Fingal area though - and you need to go there in person. They don't do look-ups over the phone. Lovely people but desperately short-staffed.

tyview · 14-09-2011 9:56am

Thanks to everyone for all the ideas on where to look next. Fingers crossed I may be able to get somewhere with it.

CeannRua · 14-09-2011 5:11pm

http://www.learnaboutarchives.ie/archivists/web?task=Display&art_id=291

Fingal has records of the old Dublin Co Co and older bodies so think this should cover area of interest.

Hit a brick wall

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