Another Noo-b Laser Question

TommyKnocker

Noo-b here and would like to understand the rules and reasoning behind the laser laws as they pertain to Airsoft here in Ireland, as I am a little confused

N.B. I am not looking to start an argument or champion the use of other laser colours. Nor am I looking to circumvent the rules regarding posting about illegal Airsoft equipment.

I understand from the charter that the only lasers legal in Airsoft in Ireland must conform to the following

• Red lasers
• 5mW or less
• 630nm-680nm

However I have seen discussions on different threads where folks mention other colours and I would like to understand why these are banned.

I always understood that different colour lasers had different power outputs and wave lengths, which were stronger than those listed above. However I have recently seen some advertisements on both Airsoft web sites and Ebay where Green lasers, meeting the power output and wave length specifications listed in the charter are for sale.

For example

• From Ebay
• From an Airsoft web site

So I am wondering

• How they have gotten a green laser to meet these power output and wave length specifications
• Would these green lasers now be legal in Irish Airsoft
• If not, then why, when they appear to meet the power and wave length specifications, as I can't imagine that the colour is that important, but maybe I am wrong

Again I am not looking for an argument, looking to champion the use of other colour lasers or discuss illegal Airsoft equipment on the forum. Just to understand the rules/laws as they apply to Airsofting here in Ireland.

I do of course understand that it would be a nightmare for the site marshals at present if 1 or 2 folks turned up on an Airsoft site with one of these green lasers, as typically a green laser would be outside the specifications allowed here.

Decoy

This has been discussed many times over, just do a search for "green laser".

From memory green lasers can never be within the approved wavelengths as green/blue are in an entirely different part of the spectrum than red. A sample green laser wavlength would be ~532nm, red would be ~650nm. Bottom line, anyone selling a green laser (on eBay) and saying that it's in the 630-680nm range is telling porkies just to get some sales and/or get around laser wavelength/power regulations. Airsoft retailers in other jurisdictions may well be allowed to sell colours/wavelengths other than red, just because they will ship to Ireland doesn't make them legal, they will happily ship airsoft devices >1joule after all.

Green lasers are banned because of the greater potential to cause physical damage, especially at higher power outputs. In the UK it is a criminal offence, under anti-terrorism legislation no less, to have/use a green laser.


I have no problem with the legislation as it stands, it reduces the likelihood of some gobsh!te blinding me or another player just because they think a 500mW green laser is cool. In light conditions where the use of a red laser might be practical/beneficial green lasers could be visible along the entire length of the beam thus rendering them pointless as the target(s) can identify where the laser is coming from.

bullets

Last nightgames I was at locally someone turned up with a Green Laser and proceeded to shine it at people during the games.

People complained about it and he was only told to turn it off :eek:
Later on in the evening same ass is shining it nearly directly into my eyes,
I nearly lost the rag!! had to Roar at the Marshell and explain to him
they were not legal (he seemed obliviuous) was stunned when is response was something along the lines of "its too bright now wait until later" :eek:

While I would love a "Legal" Green Laser I would not use one in airsoft though.


Maplin (I got a booklet posted to me yesterday) are currently selling
Green Lasers within Ireland that are advertised as 1mw but they
dont state the wavelength on their catalog. (On the UK website it shows them being outside the 630 to 680 wavelenth)
So not sure how they are getting away with that!

There are advertisements that show a description of a green laser
being within the required limits of 630 to 680nm
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/422450494/New_Brand_green_laser_pen_pointer.html

My Opinion is that the description is incorrect though ^^^^^
Since you cannot add filters to change colours and the spectrum of light to see a green falls outside 630-680
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Commercial_laser_lines.svg

Am trying to find where it says in Irish Law the wavelength if anyone has a link handy could ya fire it on to me ? As I know Astronomers in Ireland used to use Green Lasers within Ireland for star pointing a few years ago.

~B

TommyKnocker

Thank you for the responses.

I did a forum search and looked on Google, but did not find the answer I was seeking.

For the record I also have no problem with the current legislation governing the use of lasers in Airsoft. I was merely curious how folks where advertising lasers which were green in colour as apparently having the same specifications as a red laser.

I would not be familiar with light and wave lengths etc and was therefore curious to find out from folks who understood this topic.

Can I ask another noo-b question.

Looking again at the Ebay link I posted above, I notice that the laser has a wave length of 532nm which I took to be less than the 630nm-680nm allowed with red lasers. But is it a case that the lower the "nm" figure, the stronger the laser is?

For the record, I had assumed the opposite

Decoy

nm = nanometer, this is the wavelength, in real terms the colour

mW - milliWatt, this is the power rating

TommyKnocker

Decoy wrote: »

nm = nanometer, this is the wavelength, in real terms the colour

mW - milliWatt, this is the power rating

Cheers & possibly stupid follow on question on lasers in general, but I am still not sure whether it is the nm figure or the mW figure which causes a green laser to be banned?

i.e is a green laser (@ 532 nm which denotes the colour) and 5mW more powerful than a red laser (@630nm-680nm which denotes the colour) and 5mW, as the power rating of both is the same.

Are green lasers banned due to their wave length or their power output?

Shidosha

My understanding is that they're banned due to their wavelength. It has to do with how people's eyes react to the light - with red lasers we blink before they can do any damage, with green we can't. In theory even the weakest of lasers shining into your eye could deal damage, blinking prevents this.

I've been having a quick look around oireachtas.ie for the actual legislation on lasers - I know I've seen it before, but wanted to have a read over it. I seem to remember something about whether or not it was mounted (or capable of being mounted) on a firearm/imitation firearm. This might explain why green lasers seem to be available, but can't be used for airsofting. I've seen the boxes on the shelf in Maplins (though they seemed to be out of stock), and I know that green (and blue) lasers are used for astronomy here.

Anyone know exactly where to find the legislation?

DeBurca

Hi Bullets I have the same catalogue here and it states the wave length as 532nm and I also visit there store in Limerick often and they also have many branches nation wide

Soberts

This green laser crack makes no sense to me! There has been many a night club in dublin that i have been in have green lasers shining all over the place and shining in my eyes ect. I do a bit of djing myself and was wondering if it was legal or not for me to buy a green laser for my gear. Surely the night clubs should not have them if we cannot have them?

Surely they are not dangerous if they can still be used in other applications?

TommyKnocker

OP Here.

I am not looking to discuss or advance the the use of green lasers in Airsoft or their use in locations outside of Airsoft.

I am more than happy with the current Airsoft legislation.

In this thread I simply wanted to ask about green lasers, as I had seen other threads where they were mentioned and seen ads for green lasers where they were listed with the same specifications as legal red lasers.

Evade

TommyKnocker wrote: »

Cheers & possibly stupid follow on question on lasers in general, but I am still not sure whether it is the nm figure or the mW figure which causes a green laser to be banned?

The wavelength (nm) is what make's all green lasers illegal but it is possible to get red lasers that are above 5mW also making them illegal.

The thing about colour is it is literally all in your head, it's the way your brain distinguishes between different wavelengths of visible light. You can't have the colour green at the same wavelength as red.

In simple terms wavelength (nm) is colour and power (mW/W) is brightness.

Bobby Baccala

you never know you could end up giving people laser eye surgery with one of them green lasers

bullets

Could someone please send a link to show where it gives information about the legalities and wavelengths specifically in Irish Law so I can read for myself ?? I've looked but have been unsuccessful in finding the information.

I've looked at the customs site to see if there are documents about import restrictions and could not find the word laser
on their links/pdf files of lists of restricted stuff. Also searching Irish statute website cant seem to get the info.


I doubt Sparks would include the information in the Charter if he
was not sure that he was correct as he's usually good at backing up
anything he posts here on boards, it would be nice to add a link to that
section of the charter though for people to read so it will stop debate.

There are lots of Irish stores selling green lasers and violet lasers.
Take a look at adverts.ie and you will find Dublin and Kildare based
places selling them with wording such as:

Strongest green laser legal in Ireland!

http://www.adverts.ie/other-electronics/strongest-green-laser-legal-in-ireland-high-power-excellent-quality/831026

http://www.adverts.ie/for-sale/q_green+lasers/sortby_best_match-desc/

When trying to search there are people on other non-airsoft forums referring to the
airsoft charter but not linking to anyplace in Irish Law.

There are arguments on other websites (Not all Irish) over limits being 5mw or 1mW. There are people talking about European Restrictions where class IIIA lasers but others say class IIA and 1mW and legal to purchase as long as they are 5mw or under. (Regardless of Colour)

~B

Evade

bullets wrote: »

Could someone please send a link to show where it gives information about the legalities and wavelengths specifically in Irish Law so I can read for myself ?? I've looked but have been unsuccessful in finding the information.
I doubt Sparks would include the information in the Charter if he
was not sure that he was correct as he's usually good at backing up
anything he posts here on boards, it would be nice to add a link to that
section of the charter though for people to read so it will stop debate.

Maybe someone could PM him for a link to the source?

bullets

Evade wrote: »

Maybe someone could PM him for a link to the source?

I'd rather have a link to the facts (whatever they may be) added to the Charter
if its possible.

The Airsoft Charter is the only charter on boards that I have seen so far
that mentions the legalities and being allowed to discuss etc.

If Irish based companies are legally selling Green Lasers in Ireland above board with 1mW - 5mW range and its not breaking the law then the
airsoft charter part where it comes to green lasers is null and void.

If the current airsoft charter is correct then it means all the shops in Ireland
selling green lasers are doing so illegally and people can be justly told to
shut up talking about them here.

Dont get me wrong.... I would be against anyone using Green Lasers in a Skirmish (despite how cool they would look). But from an NON-airsofting use I would still love to own a pointer legally just out of fascination and love of technology factor.
(Hell I'd love a blue one if it was allowed and I could afford one)

~B

Shidosha

This is why I was looking for a direct link to the legislation too. I'm not questioning the existence of the law, I just want to know what it says. In fact, I have a memory of reading it before, and seem to recall that whether it can be mounted on a firearm/RIF being a pretty important part of it. That would explain why green lasers are available for various purposes here, but are not legal for airsoft use - but I'd like to have a read of it in any case.

Alan b.

are you possibly mistaking what the iaa had written up as a fact sheet on lasers? im sure they had mentioned the mounting of them.

i dont know if that comes into it as there is a difference between being mountable (which anything and everything is really)

and being designed to be mounted.

also you could argue being designed for real steel and being designed for airsoft would be a differant thing altogether aswell despite being cross compatable in a lot of cases.

hightower1

I'd love to see the legislation myself tbh?
Could be another one of these things where people pass it along that their illegal simply because "if its illegal in the UK it must be here too right?".

Could be wrong, wont really bother me ether way but its something that'd be handy to know in the long run.


Was just thinking of the legalities lately as I read this:http://gizmodo.com/5834091/wicked-laser-s3-krypton-lightning-review-holy-christ-now-its-green-and-goes-into-space

OzCam

Here's an answer I gave someone in October 2009. I think it's still valid.

The rules for lasers are:
- output of less than 5 milli Watts
- in the light frequencies of 630 to 680nm
These lasers used to be labelled Class IIIa (the letter A is significant), the new labelling system is Class 3R.

Which means that all blue and green lasers (which are out side of light frequencies of 630 to 680nm) are illegal. Green light appears _much_ brighter at night, due to the way the human eye processes light.

Note that a Class IIIB laser (now called Class 3B) is over 5 mW and is capable of instant eye damage in some circumstances. See the excellent wiki article at <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety&gt; for more information.

IANAL but my understanding is that possession of a laser above Class 3R is legal for certain purposes (eg Astronomy) but you need to be able to demonstrate "due cause", and airsoft doesn't count as a defence.

The main risk in buying cheap airsoft lasers from China is that the manufacturer may have used a laser diode more powerful than the case markings indicate (for example, a cheap batch of lasers being sold off). I would highly recommend buying from a reputable supplier, at a minimum.

Note that even class 3R lasers are not 100% safe for players wearing glasses, as the beam can still be focussed on the back of the eye and cause permanent damage. It is my firm belief that any player with glasses should have the right to insist on not being lit up for this reason - and they're tactically useless anyway.

In other laser news, a muppet in England who shone a green laser at a police helicopter got a year in jail yesterday. Result!
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/8321457.stm&gt;

Reading that wikipedia article should be mandatory for anyone interested in lasers.

See also http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/faqs/laser.html

Alan b.

an article explaining how green lasers are made in the legal wave lenghts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_pointer#Green

Evade

Alan b. wrote: »

an article explaining how green lasers are made in the legal wave lenghts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_pointer#Green

532nm is still outside the legal range of 630 to 680nm.

Alan b.

Evade wrote: »

532nm is still outside the legal range of 630 to 680nm.

yeah i should have pointed that out, i meant it shows the process of changing the output. i dont know much about laser technology or if its the only output they can change it to.

Evade

Alan b. wrote: »

yeah i should have pointed that out, i meant it shows the process of changing the output. i dont know much about laser technology or if its the only output they can change it to.

The output wavelength determines the colour so unless you can bend the laws of physics (or alter the part of your brain that determines colour) no matter how hard you try the only colour you'll get in the 630 to 680nm range is orange/red.

bullets

Wikipedia cant be relayed on for the truth.
the colour the wavelength eye damage or not.

Somebody please link Proof in Actual IRISH law not hearsay not english laws not European laws where it specifically states where green lasers that fall into the 532nm wavelength are specifically NOT legal to sell within the republic of Ireland.

Also remember import restrictions are not the same as being allowed to possess or purchase products already within the country.
(similar to it may not be allowed to import an airsoft device in the future but still be allowed to own or purchase one within Ireland)

I'm not agreeing or dis-agreeing with what anybody has said.
I Just want to see cold hard facts where is says these are not legal/or not specific to Ireland.

~B

Evade

bullets wrote: »

not European laws

Why not European law? Are we not subject to that too?

bullets

Evade wrote: »

Why not European law? Are we not subject to that too?

Not quite there are all sorts of legal mumbo jumbo about individual countries
governing themselves and laws within a country that may conflict with European or EU laws only thing that springs to mind is eight European countries prostitution
would be considered legal and other countries it may not be, Divorce/abortion
laws would vary from country to country despite European laws.
(Dont know the specifics) In the same way that Airsoft laws and firearms laws vary from country to country despite european law.

~B