Vitali vs Ali

badabing106

The disadvantage Ali has is 50 years of science, training , and knowledge

Did Alil evey fight someone like "Vitali Nowadays."..No

I know they breeded them thougher in those days...No one equaled to Viltalie Klictschoe, Lennox lewis was "beaten" after two rounds if you ever watch the fight , did he offer a rematch, No, he retired.

Vitali has never being knockedt out!

It is a big ask for someone from 50 years ago! and 50 pounds lighter to do it at this level? ? Vitali is a good offensive boxer and a good defensive boxer in any era?

badabing106

I think Ali would be run away from a "defeat"

cowzerp

I'd genuinely call this a 50-50 fight, vitali is so hard to beat but if anyone could do it they would need to be fast and smart like ali.

The fact this is asked shows vitali is getting some well earned credit.

We will still get some full of it people making out that Ali would win easily though, and on another thread I seen someone say Marciano would have beat vitali, that's ridiculis and laughable, joe louis would have been a better example.

mrgardener

cowzerp wrote: »

I'd genuinely call this a 50-50 fight, vitali is so hard to beat but if anyone could do it they would need to be fast and smart like ali.

The fact this is asked shows vitali is getting some well earned credit.

We will still get some full of it people making out that Ali would win easily though, and on another thread I seen someone say Marciano would have beat vitali, that's ridiculis and laughable, joe louis would have been a better example.

tbh its more ridiculous and laughable that people think they KNOW how a fight would go between two boxers from completely different eras.
If Vitali was around in Marciano's time, he could've been crap, and if Marciano was around now, he could be the best boxer of all time.
Thats the point, we'll never know.
Anything else is pure guesswork.

walshb

mrgardener wrote: »

tbh its more ridiculous and laughable that people think they KNOW how a fight would go between two boxers from completely different eras.
If Vitali was around in Marciano's time, he could've been crap, and if Marciano was around now, he could be the best boxer of all time.
Thats the point, we'll never know.
Anything else is pure guesswork.

I agree; and I have seen enough of both men to know that it would be a hell of a scrap. To claim it's ridiculous or laughable for EITHER man to win is naieve. BOTH bring serious strengths to the ring. Vitali's size, chin, reach and brains, against Rocky's power, heart, will, pace and variety. People seem to think Rocky was just a crude brawler. He was deceptively clever, tricky and could throw shots form all angles, to all places, with power.

As for Ali. Personally, I see no relevance to science aiding Vitali in his match
with either Marciano OR Ali. It's not like either man is from the dark ages.
50 years? What has so dramatically changed in boxing to think those of today
would beat those from the 50s and 60s? If anything, those from years' gone by
were probably that bit more prepared. More active can help.

There are fighters from all eras that would be great in all eras.
I am not one of these who idolises the oldies and is blinded when
comparing them against fighters from today and from the recent 80s and 90s

How I judge it is to watch fights from both men, and make my mind up.
I don't care if it's a fighter with 40 fights, like FLOYD, against a man with
many many more, like Duran. I watch both at their best, and then I pit them together.

I don't think Ali would have it easy at all, I do think he wins a UD
and does find the height and reach an issue. But, his feet and combination
punching, along with his steel chin should be too much for Klit.

cowzerp

Rocky was a little heavyweight, he would be badly bullied by vitali who is so hard to hit and a come forward fighter like rocky is made for him-the last post quoting me Is about if they where in different eras, mine is not-mine is both at there best in same ring and obv this is impossible but if we have that attitude then there is no point debating fighters at all.

Add on, most big middleweight top contenders would also beat Marciano if he suddenly appeared in this decade.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Add on, most big middleweight top contenders would also beat Marciano if he suddenly appeared in this decade.

Big Middleweights? 160 lbs is 160 lbs. Rocky would eat any middle/SMW/LH today, yesterday or yesteryear. Marciano was a solid 185-190 lbs. The heavyweight champion of the world, who beat Ezzard Charles twice, one of the greatest LH/CW fighters in history, and you think a Carl Froch, Kessler, Ward, Dirrell are going to beat Rocky?

C'mon, Klit will be a hell of a tough one for Marciano, but a freaking middle?

Why do you rate the guy so low that you would claim this?

Even a past his peak Louis (whom Rocky KNOCKED out) would be far too much for any 160 lb fighter today.

Walcott? Another class fighter would eat any MW/SMW today. Rocky KO'd hm twice; and if that right
hand that blew Walcott away even breezes by a Froch or Kessler, they are being stretchered out.

Sorry, Paul, that claim is like saying that any bantam today would defeat a LWW from years' gone by.

Rocky wasn't just any heavyweight, He was the champion of the world for that time.
Rocky would have almost two stones on say, Carl Froch, or Andre Ward.

You think Hagler would beat any middle today? If so, you think Hagler beats a 190 lbs Rocky Marciano?
And if so, how exactly?

Joe Calzaghe was a big SMW. Would he beat Rocky? I know you do not rate him, but he would surely
be a contender right now at 160-168 lbs.

Gerald McClellan, another big MW/SMW, what about him? None of these
beat a man like Rocky Marciano. None.

No middle in HISTORY beats Rocky Marciano. We could argue that a LH great could
be competitive, but a middle?

Spazdarn

It's not just weight to consider, Vitali is tall, stocky and rangey. Like any of Vitali's current challengers, they would rarely get in past his jab, and his power would scare them ****less.

I would consider Marciano beating him as extremely unlikely...

walshb

ToiletFusion wrote: »

It's not just weight to consider, Vitali is tall, stocky and rangey. Like any of Vitali's current challengers, they would rarely get in past his jab, and his power would scare them ****less.

I would consider Marciano beating him as extremely unlikely...

Hey, I would not fault anyone for that view. Vitali is a BIG HW fighter. He would be awkward for many of the past HW champs.

CorkMan

Regards Marciano VS Vitali, I think it would be very different from against Adamek. Adamek stayed on the outside, got hit by the jab and took right hands. He went at Vitali the odd time but Vitali just took a step back to get out of trouble.

Picture Mike Tyson VS a fighter with a much longer reach, that is how Rocky would have fought Vitali IMO. Marciano wouldn't have stayed on the outside eating jabs, he would have bobbed and weaved to the inside and brawled with Vitali whenever possible. Without thinking about the actual fight, you have to look at the outside first and think Rocky would have greatly taking Klitschko out of his comfort zone, and it wouldn't have been Adamek-Klitschko.

Regards Ali, I think Ali would beat him. People may talk about the way difference, Ali took on harder punches in Foreman and Shavers and lasted, so I don't think any of Vitali's right straights/hooks will have Ali shaking at the knees. Ali has an 80 inch too, I think Ali will just dance, take any punches he has to without getting too hurt and get a decision. BTW, we have not gone into Cassius Clay/Ali's pre-fight mind games yet

Vitali will hurt me none, I'll send him on his way,
there shall be a rocket hitting the Ukraine,
it came from America, rose from the ground,
but now i'm not sure if it'll come down.

cowzerp

Ok not middleweight, I'm confusing Mma middleweight 84kg-anyway the point I was trying to make was a fighter his weight now and of good standard would beat Rocky who I don't frankly rate, Joe Louis was a far better fighter, the fact he was an Italian in mafia times also does not sit well for me with his unbeaten record.

These days rocky would not be a heavy and would drop divisions or get beaten up.

Back on topic, rocky v anyone is another thread really.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Ok not middleweight, I'm confusing Mma middleweight 84kg-anyway the point I was trying to make was a fighter his weight now and of good standard would beat Rocky who I don't frankly rate, Joe Louis was a far better fighter, the fact he was an Italian in mafia times also does not sit well for me with his unbeaten record.

These days rocky would not be a heavy and would drop divisions or get beaten up.

Back on topic, rocky v anyone is another thread really.

Well, many think that Rocky beats Loius at any time. Me being one. Rocky had that power, stamina, and a very good chin. He was a ball of energy and power. Non stop aggression, deceptive defense, and such varied power shots.

He was unbeaten, but even if he did lose, what has this to do with matching him with fighters from today? He still IMO whups any of them. Yes, the Klits are going to be very tough bouts. Take David Haye for example. Apart from size he has nothing to beat Rocky with. You think
his 25 punches a round beats Rocky Marciano? Not saying you claimed this, but he is seen as one of the best in the world at HW.

BTW, why do you not rate him. What areas do you believe are so poor that he is not rated by you? I think he has a hell of alot going for him.

These days we have Haye, Povetkin, Solis? Jokes. So, why would a 190 lb Marciano need to stay at CW, to feast on such
"greats" as Tarver, Huck, Lebedev, Steve Cunningham, Danny Green? You really think any of these beats Marciano?

Reading your post you seem to be saying that Rocky would need to drop down to avoid losing to the names above.
Tarver going to beat up Marciano? Green? Huck? Beat Marciano up?

BQQ

If he can lose to Chris Byrd, he can certainly lose to Ali.
(btw I know he was injured, but anyone with heart would have gutted it out)

I see it as a points win for Ali. [Superior hand speed and footwork.]

walshb

BQQ wrote: »

If he can lose to Chris Byrd, he can certainly lose to Ali.
(btw I know he was injured, but anyone with heart would have gutted it out)

I see it as a points win for Ali. [Superior hand speed and footwork.]

No, suck it up and ruin a career? I think Vitali made the right choice.

I agree with the Ali pick. Too much speed, feet and all around class.

cowzerp

Haye at cruiser 2 years ago would have troubled Marciano, I don't rate haye at heavy as I wouldn't Marciano either,

His lack of skill and technique is blatant, as far as big punchers goes he'd be way down the list as opposed foreman, Tyson, etc

I think a technical or good chinned fighter easily beats him, I know you say he'd more than aggression but I disagree, all I've watched is like a small sloppy version of Tyson with less boxing ability.

Holyfield a small heavy would eat Marciano for breakfast

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Haye at cruiser 2 years ago would have troubled Marciano, I don't rate haye at heavy as I wouldn't Marciano either,

His lack of skill and technique is blatant, as far as big punchers goes he'd be way down the list as opposed foreman, Tyson, etc

I think a technical or good chinned fighter easily beats him, I know you say he'd more than aggression but I disagree, all I've watched is like a small sloppy version of Tyson with less boxing ability.

Holyfield a small heavy would eat Marciano for breakfast

Paul,

I disagree. I used to NOT see much with Rocky until I started watching
him closely. He showed me so much more than I thought. He hit you non stop, everywhere. Arms, hips, elbows, liver, head. Non stop. And, heavy punches too.

If a 40 year old Thompson can take Haye out, then Rocky kills him. Haye has NOTHING to trouble or stop a rampaging Marciano. Again, 25 punches a rd type fighter does nothing to beat Marciano.

You say he lacks skill? So, he hasn't the speed of foot that others had, (hands not all that fast) but he had some very
neat skills. His ability to dip, duck and throw shots from odd angles to me is a serious skill. He also
had lovely punch variation. Straight shots, turned into hooks, and uppercuts, from all sides.

Kristopherus

IMHO Vitali is not fit to tie Ali's boots.

cowzerp

That's a fair opinion, Ali is not called the greatest for nothing.

I disagree and bet most of Germany/Ukraine do too, thats because they know him unlike most people over here

gene_tunney

Kristopherus wrote: »

IMHO Vitali is not fit to tie Ali's boots.

In a boxing sense? Because as a person, Ali was pretty scummy.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

I think a technical or good chinned fighter easily beats him, I know you say he'd more than aggression but I disagree, all I've watched is like a small sloppy version of Tyson with less boxing ability.

Yet, one of boxings most skilled, Walcott, got Ko'd twice?

Charles, one of the best ever LH fighters got beaten twice.

So, who are these skilled and chinned fighters that beat him easily?

As for Holy? The one who at 190 lbs went life and death with Qawi?

Qawi? Great, but not near as good as Marciano at 190 lbs. And, maybe 4 inches shorter.

The HW Holyfield is a match for any man, but NO way he eats Marciano. Hell
of a scrap; and if Moorer can last the pace, then Marciano can.

Holy went to war. Not good when the opponent is Marciano.

Spazdarn

A late 80's Tyson has the size and the boxing ability to beat a 240 pound Vitali. A 190 pound Rocky doesn't have enough brute force, or boxing skill to take out Vitali, a man much larger and longer in reach than him.

Holyfield and Marciano? Well that's just an unbelievable fight, now that is contentious.

walshb

gene_tunney wrote: »

In a boxing sense? Because as a person, Ali was pretty scummy.

Why? Because he believed in segragation? Taunted Frazier?

Ali was not perfect, but the guy was full of class, personalilty, charisma, and fun. Always always had time for PEOPLE. He was that way. Loved by so many.

cowzerp

Ali was quite racist but in that times America i think thats perfectly understandable to be honest.

He did humiliate opponents in and out of the ring-thats business and makes money, if he was doing that in mataeur Boxing i would call it scummy.

Ali is much loved by all races now and i believe he gives that love back also, plus he loves and respects his ex opponents too

gene_tunney

walshb wrote: »

gene_tunney wrote: »

In a boxing sense? Because as a person, Ali was pretty scummy.

Why? Because he believed in segragation? Taunted Frazier?

Ali was not perfect, but the guy was full of class, personalilty, charisma, and fun. Always always had time for PEOPLE. He was that way. Loved by so many.

I'm on my phone now so I won't type up a big response about why he was a pretty bad guy but him beating his wife and cheating on pretty much all his wives would be two big ones. Heavyweight champ of the world and you're slapping your wife around? Pretty bad IMO

walshb

gene_tunney wrote: »

I'm on my phone now so I won't type up a big response about why he was a pretty bad guy but him beating his wife and cheating on pretty much all his wives would be two big ones. Heavyweight champ of the world and you're slapping your wife around? Pretty bad IMO

Beating a woman is scummy, no doubt. Cheating? C'mon, not nice, but it's part of every person. We are all animals. It's natural to crave more than one woman/man. The beatings. Do you have solid evidence of this?

Spazdarn

Don't make him show you the bruises...