Signal drop across Boss pedals

kevin65

I have always noticed a signal drop across my boss pedals, but it never really bothered me years ago when I was using them on a regular basis. In recent years I have used just the distortion in the amp and no other effects. Took the board out recently (5 pedals and master switch in the boss case) and the signal drop is very noticeable to the extent it's annoying me. As far as I know, Boss pedals are not true bypass, so even when they are off the signal is passing through the pedal circuitry.

Is there anyone out there running a few Boss pedals in their effects line, and how do you find the signal drop on your setup?

rcaz

kevin65 wrote: »

I have always noticed a signal drop across my boss pedals, but it never really bothered me years ago when I was using them on a regular basis. In recent years I have used just the distortion in the amp and no other effects. Took the board out recently (5 pedals and master switch in the boss case) and the signal drop is very noticeable to the extent it's annoying me. As far as I know, Boss pedals are not true bypass, so even when they are off the signal is passing through the pedal circuitry.

Is there anyone out there running a few Boss pedals in their effects line, and how do you find the signal drop on your setup?

First of all, what do you mean by "signal drop"? Loss of high end? Loss of volume?

No, Boss pedals aren't true bypass, they're buffered. If you had 5 true-bypass pedals your "signal drop" would likely be worse. I don't know how long your guitar cables are, and I don't know exactly what your 'master switch' set up is, but if it were a linear 5 pedal set up with everything true bypass, two 10 foot guitar cables to and from the board, and four 6 inch patch cables between the pedals, your guitar's signal would be traveling 22 feet unbuffered (without counting the probably non-negligible distance the electrons have to travel around inside your pedals) . If you compare that to traveling 10 feet without any pedals in between, of course you'd notice a "signal drop".

A lot of people like to blame buffered pedals for 'tone suck' or whatever, and complain that 'when I turn it off I want it OFF' and all that, but if you're going to go through a few pedals, you need buffers. The buffer in Boss pedals isn't amazing, but it definitely isn't rubbish either. And if you're running your guitar through 5 effects pedals, you're going to be getting loads of great sounds that don't sound traditionally like a guitar, so is it that big a deal that your dry signal doesn't sound exactly like a straight-into-the-amp guitar?

A lot of people get REALLY stuck up about their guitar "rigs" (you know, like a big manly truck :rolleyes: ) and spend hundreds and thousands of blips on relatively mundane equipment (the original Klon Centaur is the one to look at here! [okay it's a wonderful overdrive but it's hardly as exciting as a MoogerFooger delay!]), super expensive cabling (in the guitar, in the instrument cable, in the electronic components in the pedals), extensive research and modification of pedals' buffers, endless talking online trying to find the best tone... Wouldn't they be happier playing music??

Okay so this post is half-vent, half-response to your question... But don't worry too much about that stuff I reckon, losing a bit of treble and a bit of volume is inherent of using a few effects. I use 13 pedals (3 of which are Boss-made, 6 of which are true bypass) and a laptop (all sorts of lossy things going on when I put the guitar through AD/DA conversion and process it with computer programs), and it really doesn't bother me... Just don't plug straight into your amp, that way you don't know what you're missing :pac:

You can minimise "signal drop" by rewiring your guitar, spending lots of money on cables that minimise 'treble bleed' or whatever it's called, hyper-excellent super pedals hand crafted by 'boutique builders', but I'd rather have that money to spend on a greater number of normal-spec equipment, and I'd rather have all the timbral options open to me...

Here's an article about true bypass by Pete Cornish, who builds effects for rich expensive guitar players. As far as I know what he does is takes the pedals they like to use, takes all the signal-processing components out of the original pedal cases, and puts them all into one box, hardwired together in series, with some modifications to 'improve tone'. I dunno, I'd rather play tunes than worry too much about that stuff

And all this is subjective anyway, how can you measure a tonal 'improvement'?

Sorry I went off one on there, I'm a recovering gearaholic, still pretty easy to get a rise out of me (trolls take note)

rcaz

A little off topic, but I just had another read of that Pete Cornish article, and I don't really agree with him that much. He says that the 'degraded' tone resulting from a true bypass system is 'too bad for serious work' - but the only time anyone is going to have all their pedals hooked up at once is when they're playing on their own, rehearsing seriously for a show, or playing that show, right?

As far as getting the perfect tone is concerned, those first two situations are hardly 'serious work' - if you can make a note and it sounds anything like you want it too, that's good enough for noodling and rehearsing. Sure, you want to sound great when you're playing a show, but there isn't any other reasonable way (other than one of those million-loop true bypass switcher things) to have a big pedal set up for a show. And then your amp will be mic'd, the microphone will leave its own tonal imprint, that mic will be fed through compressors, limiters, equalisers and loads of other equipment that will all have their own say on the spectrum of your guitar's sound. The sound coming through the PA speakers will be a good bit different from the sound coming through your amp, and that's the way it needs to be for a band to sound good together.

So in my opinion, the only time you really need to get the tone completely perfect out of your amp is for serious recording projects. And then, you're only going to put your signal through the equipment it needs to go through, for tone-preservation reasons, right? Any time my band has recorded, I've stripped my pedal board down and put it back together for each song, only including the pedals I need for that one. That way the guitar signal goes through minimal cabling and components and all, but also the power supply is cleaner, and I can only use my best cabling between units (I can't afford to have only decent quality cable, everyone's got a few ****ty patch cables right? :pac: ).

Man, you never have to deal with all this **** when you're a synth player

Again, sorry for the rant. I need to sleep

eoin5

kevin65 wrote: »

I have always noticed a signal drop across my boss pedals, but it never really bothered me years ago when I was using them on a regular basis. In recent years I have used just the distortion in the amp and no other effects. Took the board out recently (5 pedals and master switch in the boss case) and the signal drop is very noticeable to the extent it's annoying me. As far as I know, Boss pedals are not true bypass, so even when they are off the signal is passing through the pedal circuitry.

Is there anyone out there running a few Boss pedals in their effects line, and how do you find the signal drop on your setup?

As El Pr0n said it shouldn't be happening. It could be a problem with a particular pedal or patch lead, I've seen something like that happen the clean sound on a DS1 before. Get two leads you know are good and test all the pedals individually. Then try the patch leads the same way. Let us know how you get on.

rcaz

eoin5 wrote: »

As El Pr0n said it shouldn't be happening.

Er... Actually I said it's inevitable that it does happen, that it's part of using several effect pedals...

eoin5 wrote: »

It could be a problem with a particular pedal or patch lead, I've seen something like that happen the clean sound on a DS1 before. Get two leads you know are good and test all the pedals individually. Then try the patch leads the same way. Let us know how you get on.

All good advice, but we don't know how bad the OP's problem is. Could be really bad because of a dodgy part in the signal chain, could be just normal volume or treble loss because of the length of the chain and amount of processing the signal goes through.

Seziertisch

A true bypass looper might work for the above poster. There are any one of a number of companies making these, though I think Keeley was the first one.

In terms of more affordable alternatives, it might be an idea to get in contact with Jimmy Behan http://www.jimmybehanfx.net/

You could put your pedalboard in the loop and switch it in and out as you need it.

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

In terms of more affordable alternatives, it might be an idea to get in contact with Jimmy Behan http://www.jimmybehanfx.net/

That guy's stuff looks savage! Slow Gear, yum... :cool:

kevin65

Thanks for replies.

First, I just want to say that I'm not a tone snob, with an array of boutique valve amps and high end axes. The amp is a Peavey Studio 50 I've had for the last 25 years. I like the sound that comes direct from the amp and would like the minimise the effect that the pedals have on this.

The problem is a slight drop in volume and slight loss of tone when the signal is going through the pedal board, travelling through 5 Boss effects pedals in series.

I have a Boss BCB-6, which is basically a case to hold up to 6 Boss pedals. It contains 5 effects pedals and a master switch which switches the 5 pedals in and out of the signal chain. It's over 20 years old, but none of the pedals have given a minutes trouble.

When using the distortion or compressor pedal, the signal drop is not noticeable as the output levels on these pedals seem to compensate for it, but it's more noticeable with the flanger and digital delay.

I could get a set of high end cables like Lava cables, but don't think this will be much help.

I have read the Pete Cornish article before, but I find it difficult to agree with his argument about true bypass.
The only way to test this would be to substitute some of the Boss pedals with true bypass pedals. Another check to do I suppose a good check would be to put just one pedal in the signal chain and keep adding while taking note of the effect on the signal.

Think it may be just me, my Peavy amp and Les Paul from now on. Sh*t, maybe I am a tone snob:eek:

eoin5

El Pr0n wrote: »

All good advice, but we don't know how bad the OP's problem is. Could be really bad because of a dodgy part in the signal chain, could be just normal volume or treble loss because of the length of the chain and amount of processing the signal goes through.

He did say very noticable, there's lots of unknowns in every situation but to me that sounds more like a problem with something.

El Pr0n wrote: »

Er... Actually I said it's inevitable that it does happen, that it's part of using several effect pedals...

Sorry that was in reference to the true bypass vs buffered question where you said:

El Pr0n wrote: »

If you had 5 true-bypass pedals your "signal drop" would likely be worse.