Changes to the Catholic Mass Service and other stuff.

Turtwig

I was astonished to see no one has a thread started on this because I was at Mass this weekend and there was some confusion over what to say and do with the new missal (still in beta mode). There was also a little unease with the whole idea of "And With Your Own Spirit" (if I got the response right). What are Catholics opinions on this? It seems to be an attempt to bring the service closer to the Latin meaning but some of it seems a little pedantic and dare I say it European. All I saw today though was confusion. I'm sure in time though it will all sink in.

alex73

"And With Your Own Spirit" .. Its from latin. italian, polish, spanish already carry this same phrase. Dominus vobiscum,..et cum spiritum tuum its a pity they did not get the translation right the 1st time. As someone here who prefers mass in Latin or koine greek, its good they have moved it closer to the other translations.

gimmebroadband

At Mass last night (vigil) the Priest told the congregation that we will be introduced to the new missal gradually, and the missalette reflected the changes. I agree the new missal closely reflects the Latin Spirit of the Mass. I have no problems with it, though it'll take some time to get used to it!

Church to introduce first of changes to missal today.......

http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2011/09/church-to-introduce-first-of-changes-to.html

CiaranMT

The heretics over at the ACP seem to think the whole thing is a backwards, sexist step, according to the Sunday Times anyway. Can't access their online articles unfortunately, not a subscriber.

Onesimus

CiaranMT wrote: »

The heretics over at the ACP seem to think the whole thing is a backwards, sexist step, according to the Sunday Times anyway. Can't access their online articles unfortunately, not a subscriber.

Which part of it is sexist?

gimmebroadband

Onesimus wrote: »

Which part of it is sexist?

Ignoring Women

Many women will be rightly enraged by the continued deliberate use of non-inclusive language. The ACP strongly opposes the introduction and use of any texts which will insult and offend women who are at the heart of every Christian community in Ireland.


http://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/02/press-conference-on-new-liturgical-texts/

The Mass is about God, and not about man/woman.

Fr. TONY FLANNERY of ACP had the following to say about the Taoiseach after his speech against the Vatican:

"Maybe it needs someone like the Taoiseach and words of the force that he used to get through to them."

http://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/07/maybe-it-needs-someone-like-the-taoiseach-and-words-of-the-force-that-he-used-to-get-through-to-them/

It is worth remembering that Fr Tony Flannery CSsR and Frank Flannery, one of the Taoiseach's key advisors within Fine Gael, are brothers.

Onesimus

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Ignoring Women

Many women will be rightly enraged by the continued deliberate use of non-inclusive language. The ACP strongly opposes the introduction and use of any texts which will insult and offend women who are at the heart of every Christian community in Ireland.


http://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/02/press-conference-on-new-liturgical-texts/

The Mass is about God, and not about man/woman.

Fr. TONY FLANNERY of ACP had the following to say about the Taoiseach after his speech against the Vatican:

"Maybe it needs someone like the Taoiseach and words of the force that he used to get through to them."

http://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/07/maybe-it-needs-someone-like-the-taoiseach-and-words-of-the-force-that-he-used-to-get-through-to-them/

It is worth remembering that Fr Tony Flannery CSsR and Frank Flannery, one of the Taoiseach's key advisors within Fine Gael, are brothers.

But this translation was used for centuries and no woman ever got offended? I think that is because all the old women back then knew that the term ''men'' included everyone. Today the world change the language and expect the Church to move with them when it's the opposite way around. We should be moving with the Church, whose teaching is more modern than ours.

Keaton

And with your spirit, actually.

Come on guys. This isn't difficult. You can do it!

Onesimus

Keaton wrote: »

And with your spirit, actually.

Come on guys. This isn't difficult. You can do it!

LAUGHING OUT LOUD!!!!!!!!!!

yeah I know it's amazing how childish society really is.

Keaton

Onesimus wrote: »

LAUGHING OUT LOUD!!!!!!!!!!

yeah I know it's amazing how childish society really is.

Yeah. I think I just have difficulty accepting the fact that everybody is not as intelligent as I am.

PatricaMcKay2

If the priest says for all instead of for many, the Sacrament doesnt happen, that should be clear as day...And yis attack C of I Sacraments.

Keaton

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

If the priest says for all instead of for many, the Sacrament doesnt happen, that should be clear as day...And yis attack C of I Sacraments.

Who told you that?

For all, as used for the last forty years, was part of what was, and remains, a valid consecration formula.

yutta

In the 1970s, when the changeover occured there wasn't a peep out of anybody - they just got on with it. These changes are minuscule in comparison.

This ACP outfit needs to be reigned in by the Bishops. They're doing nothing but stirring **** because they were passed over for promotion to a bigger parish, etc.

alex73

Its good that people are talking about the mass. Maybe we will see people with missals for once!,, or even singing.!!!

Amateurish

Malty_T wrote: »

I was astonished to see no one has a thread started on this because I was at Mass this weekend and there was some confusion over what to say and do with the new missal (still in beta mode). There was also a little unease with the whole idea of "And With Your Own Spirit" (if I got the response right). What are Catholics opinions on this? It seems to be an attempt to bring the service closer to the Latin meaning but some of it seems a little pedantic and dare I say it European. All I saw today though was confusion. I'm sure in time though it will all sink in.

1. I would have thought you'd have burst into flame going through the door,:)
2. I reckon they have more pressing matters to attend to than changing a few words here and there and
3. The wording said 'He descended into hell'? Thats a new one to me.

Monty.

Malty_T wrote: »

I was astonished to see no one has a thread started on this because I was at Mass this weekend and there was some confusion over what to say and do with the new missal (still in beta mode). There was also a little unease with the whole idea of "And With Your Own Spirit" (if I got the response right). What are Catholics opinions on this? It seems to be an attempt to bring the service closer to the Latin meaning but some of it seems a little pedantic and dare I say it European. All I saw today though was confusion. I'm sure in time though it will all sink in.

Glad to see it changing back to a more faithful translation.
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the most important and beautiful event on earth.
There were far too many things changed in Vatican II.
It will take a while and practice to get used to it.

ISAW

alex73 wrote: »

"And With Your Own Spirit" .. Its from latin. italian, polish, spanish already carry this same phrase. Dominus vobiscum,..et cum spiritum tuum its a pity they did not get the translation right the 1st time. As someone here who prefers mass in Latin or koine greek, its good they have moved it closer to the other translations.

You can add French to that Avec Ton Esprit
They also say "the Peace of christ" which is directly from "Pax Christi" instead of "peace be with you"

ISAW

Keaton wrote: »

Who told you that?

For all, as used for the last forty years, was part of what was, and remains, a valid consecration formula.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur46.htm

Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments first gave a brief official reply in January 1970 and later commissioned a brief but dense article on the subject by noted Jesuit scholar M. Zerwick, published in the May 1970 edition of Notitiae, the congregation's official organ (pages 138-140).
...
c) In the approval given to this vernacular variation in the liturgical text, nothing less than correct has crept in, which would require correction or amendment
...
"Pro vobis et pro multis effundetur" which expounded the biblical justifications for the change from "many" to "all." The following text, while sometimes a trifle technical, is sufficiently clear:

"A response was already given in Notitiae, n. 50 (January 1970), pp. 39-40, to the difficulty that in the vernacular interpretations of the words of the consecration of the wine 'pro omnibus' was used in place of 'pro multis.

... circumnavigating the aramaic...

the oldest known Eucharistic Prayer of all, the Apostolic Tradition of St. Hippolytus of Rome (circa A.D. 225), uses the following formula: "This is my blood, which is shed for you. As often as you do this, do it in memory of me."

Cybercelesta

"And with your spirit".

An article in Alive newpaper.

St. Paul uses it in four of his letters. For example, he greets the Galatians, "May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit! (6,18); and to the Phillipians he writes: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit." (4,23)

For St. Paul our spirit is our very selves at our deepest level.

Alice1

Hm, we had no problems in our Church at the Vigil Mass.

It was rather nice to hear the "old" version of some prayers - like the Confiteor. Didn't we used to have a similiar version of the Confiteor - in the dim and distant past?

It does take a wee bit of getting used to but I'm sure we'll be fine by Advent.

Regarding the use of "for us men and for our salvation", well I am one of those women who some people seem to be afraid of offending. It really is kind of insulting to me and my intelligence that you would think that of me. I do know that the use of the word "men" in the foregoing does not refer to gender - it refers to all mankind. I would imagine that quite a lot of other women know this too....

scriba

On a slight tangent, I believe that this liturgical change well help people focus again on the words and their associated theological and spiritual meanings. I can't help but feel that mass has become somewhat automated in terms of response. This is not a criticism of parishioners or clergy. I just think that there may be additional benefits to this change. The words of the mass, when examined closely, really encapsulate the core aspects of Christian belief; something I believe is not fully grasped by everyone.

The Brigadier

To be honest with you I think this is a very good thing. I normally attend a Mass where everything is in Latin anyway (Novus Ordo or EF) so it doesn't make that much of a difference to me.

I fail to see why every other country works with an accurate venacular translation without a fuss and yet in English we felt the need to play around with things.

I was surprised to read about a seditious priest in Ireland though

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0912/1224303945478.html

Monty.

The Brigadier wrote: »

I was surprised to read about a seditious priest in Ireland though

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0912/1224303945478.html

There's a whole group of them called the "Association of Catholic Priests"

Kumbaya tambourine and guitar "Fr. Trendy" clown mass types, attached to the world.

http://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/

gimmebroadband

It should be renamed the The Association of Heretics! It's amazing how the media can sniff them out!!! :rolleyes:

Monty.

gimmebroadband wrote: »

It should be renamed the The Association of Heretics! It's amazing how the media can sniff them out!!! :rolleyes:

The media also portray them as representative of all priests.