Player Accountability

Stev_o · 11-09-2011 12:49pm #1

Much hate is directed at the Irish coaching staff over poor performances in all our internationals for the past month and hell for the most part 2 years but does anyone else think that the players manage to escape a good brunt of the criticism?

Coaches can't be held responsible for players failing to tackle properly, getting over the gainline, being able to use their brain and play what's in front of them.

Are we just cursed when it comes to the WC and play in the SH?

Are our current crop of players past it?

Im in no way defending that the coaching staff should be immune from criticism in fact I would want a clear out just like most people at the end of this campaign.

When players aren't standing up and taking control who are we to blame?

corny · 11-09-2011 12:51pm

The basics are so poor from some of the Irish players i think it would be foolish to think they are exempt from criticism. However it is the coaches job to get the best out of them.

RuggieBear · 11-09-2011 12:52pm

Stev_o wrote:

When players aren't standing up and taking control who are we to blame?

the other provinces players.

Stev_o · 11-09-2011 12:53pm

RuggieBear wrote: »

the other provinces players.

Should we send a Connacht XV in future for a more calmer forum?

lologram · 11-09-2011 1:57pm

Stev_o wrote: »

Are we just cursed when it comes to the WC and play in the SH?

Are our current crop of players past it?

There's no such thing as being cursed. In my opinion, the reasons we fail in World Cups/against SH teams are

1) not having the right tactics/preparation/selection
2) not having the right mentality (hearing about wanting to be 'underdogs' makes my head spin)
3) not being good enough sometimes (you're not going to win if the opposition, from time to time, is just plain better in all facets of the game).

1) and 2) can absolutely be fixed with the right coaching, and as you say, the right work from the players. You've just got to hope that you avoid 3) as much as possible.

We don't fault the players' commitment. We know that these guys go out there to do themselves, their country and their fans proud. But we need to question what it is they're committed to. The wrong gameplan and the wrong selection leaves us where we are now, with an incredibly disappointing string of results, and let's face it, a very unhappy aura around the national side. Just look at the posts on this forum for a sample.

So I say it's got to be the coaches, tactics and selection you look at first first. But I absolutely agree that you don't absolve players of responsibility. The way you respond to sub-par performances from a player is by playing someone else. However, the response for a coaching set-up is to remove the coaches, and that's a lot more high-profile. Hence Kidney et al. get most of the focus.

While I'm at it, could I mention one of my biggest bugbears is the idea of playing player X one week in a position and player Y next week implies that X was dropped in disgrace. Why does Irish rugby have such a thing against rotating players? Good luck to the team which only has one player for each position, such as... Ireland WC '07

And yes, some of this crop is just past it. Sad and all as it is.

phily2002 · 11-09-2011 2:05pm

yeah we can blame the players, but alot of the players haven't been playing well for a while now and the coaching staff have done nothing to address it. If they dropped say Heaslip(just for example) you could guarantee he'd lift his game to get his place back. But like a number of players on the team they can play crap but they'll still be first on the teamsheet regardless...

Blair · 11-09-2011 2:11pm

Is there anyone else holding judgment of this Irish team until the Australia game? I know I could be completely of the mark but still I think they are holding back especially in today’s game, I don’t agree with this tactic but it’s what I believe is going on. History may prove me wrong but I hope not.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 11-09-2011 2:14pm

Blair wrote: »

Is there anyone else holding judgment of this Irish team until the Australia game? I know I could be completely of the mark but still I think they are holding back especially in today’s game, I don’t agree with this tactic but it’s what I believe is going on. History may prove me wrong but I hope not.

They haven't used a proper rehearsed backs move since the 6Ns. Is that because Gaffney has failed to come up with any or are they hiding them. Personally even if they try them against the Aussies you can't expect them to work first time they are used in anger.

Ste_D · 11-09-2011 2:17pm

I think a good example of the difference in coaching was obvious in the 6N this year. Gaffney managed to take the core of the Leinster back line, that was making muck of European defences, and make them look completely inept. Sure, the players must take some responsibility but what is going on in camp that is different to the provincial set-up??

durkadurka · 11-09-2011 2:20pm

RuggieBear wrote: »

the other provinces players.

I think you'll find it's the outhalf from whichever province it is that you don't support

Blair · 11-09-2011 2:21pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

They haven't used a proper rehearsed backs move since the 6Ns. Is that because Gaffney has failed to come up with any or are they hiding them. Personally even if they try them against the Aussies you can't expect them to work first time they are used in anger.

Yep I’m being a tad optimistic aren’t I, but here’s hoping.

irishbucsfan · 11-09-2011 2:23pm

Leinster and Munster have together won the H Cup 4 times between them since 2006.

Most people would expect the 4 Semi-Finalists of the RDP12 to include 3 Irish teams.

If players are excelling for one team and then failing for another then it only seems right to me to blame the difference between the two setups, IE coaching and management.

To me though, I wouldn't really blame many of the Irish coaches. Our scrum is good (Feek), our defense is good (Kiss) our general forward play is good (Smal). The big problem is our backs and attacking play, and that falls squarely on the shoulders of Alan Gaffney.

Gaffney coached a poor back line for Leinster. Even the year they won the Heineken Cup they scored very few tries and were pushed on by their awesome defense (McQuilkin). When he left Leinster and Schmidt came in the difference in the quality of Leinster's attacking play was huge. He's just not good enough and our attacking play has been hugely sub-standard since he came in (even during the grand slam year). He's moving on soon, I believe, and to me that day can't come quickly enough. The next step for Ireland is finding someone like Schmidt to coach the backs.

Apart from Gaffney you could blame Kidney's squad management perhaps. I think it's poor but I don't think it's the problem.

Player accountability is important, but I think it's more important to single out the reason these players are playing badly. instead of just sitting around destructively criticising them.

Amazotheamazing · 11-09-2011 2:25pm

There is a big weakness in the central contract system that seems to insist an Irish contracted player plays ahead of a provincially contracted one.

I'll resist the urge to use other provinces and solely apply it to Munster but I think it can be applied to the others. There's guys like DOC who are certain of their Irish place, let alone their Munster one. That means every game isn't a cup final, he knows he'll always have next week to impress. I think DOC can be and frequently is a super player, he's at every ruck, he usually leads the tackle counts etc. If he could carry he'd be considered one of the best in the world, he's deservedly a two time Lion, and deservedly captained a Lions midweek side. However, he is also inconsistent, he is prone to drifting through smaller games and usually steps it up for big matches, for both Munster and Ireland.

If he was really in competition for his place with both Munster and Ireland, I think we'd see a more consistent performer. Guys like Nagle are virtually excluded from really challenging DOC for his place because of the nature of the central contracts. I think DOC will start next week and I think he'll be very good but that doesn't excuse today.

Similarly, O'Gara really stepped up his game for both Munster and Ireland when a credible challenger took his Irish place.

I think the current system builds in a certain amount of complacency that countries with deeper squads wouldn't allow. I remember reading that when Fitzy was with NZ, each player was allowed three bad games in a row for their club, after that they are were gone and had to win back their place. We need to be a bit more ruthless with our senior players.

Stev_o · 11-09-2011 2:30pm

Could also be a timing issue. When is the last time that the Irish national side has really wowed anyone in June? We always seem to peak at the wrong times. We'v always been known for slow starts and then gradually getting the juggernaut going.

irishbucsfan · 11-09-2011 2:32pm

Stev_o wrote: »

Could also be a timing issue. When is the last time that the Irish national side has really wowed anyone in June? We always seem to peak at the wrong times. We'v always been known for slow starts and then gradually getting the juggernaut going.

When we won the Grand Slam though we started strong (beating France) and then became dodgier towards the end (squeaking past England and Wales).

I think our bad performances in June are gnereally due to the players coming off a long season, but I'd doubt that's the problem here, because they were all well rested.

catseye2 · 11-09-2011 3:45pm

Ste_D wrote: »

I think a good example of the difference in coaching was obvious in the 6N this year. Gaffney managed to take the core of the Leinster back line, that was making muck of European defences, and make them look completely inept. Sure, the players must take some responsibility but what is going on in camp that is different to the provincial set-up??

Absolutely agree.. Can't all be down to ISA . Either gaffney isnt able to deliver or kidney just can't motivate them to perform. I know some of these lads are getting past it but they seem to forget it all in a green jersey

Salty Dog Shrimp · 11-09-2011 4:19pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

They haven't used a proper rehearsed backs move since the 6Ns. Is that because Gaffney has failed to come up with any or are they hiding them.

I was hoping they'd use the "holding back" excuse after today's game but Declan could only bring himself to blame it on the man above and the weather. So it seems what we saw today is what we get.

As for this can't handle being favorites thing and people expecting a huge improvement against the aussies. The same thing was said in 07, too much pressure to annihilate Georgia and Namibia, all would be ok when we'd be underdogs against the French and Argentina...

RoryMc23 · 11-09-2011 4:29pm

It really is a carbon copy of 2007. Same excuses from people as well. Kidney must take the blame, it was under his tenure that the backline moves became non existent and his selections have been terrible.

I've heard from friend who plays for one of the provinces that against England in the 6 Nations match it was decided by a few senior players (Best, Heaslip and BOD apparently) that Reddan and Sexton would run the ball as they would under Schmidt to see if it bore fruitation. Although it was a good result, Kidney was not happy and as a result refused to play them together. The game Kidney wants is apparently cross-field kicks, playing the ball wide until a gap appears and using crash ball runners with backs running off them. He also wants forwards regularly out on the wings and thus isnt overly concerned with committing numbers to the ruck

CIARAN_BOYLE · 11-09-2011 4:33pm

RoryMc23 wrote: »

It really is a carbon copy of 2007. Same excuses from people as well. Kidney must take the blame, it was under his tenure that the backline moves became non existent and his selections have been terrible.

I've heard from friend who plays for one of the provinces that against England in the 6 Nations match it was decided by a few senior players (Best, Heaslip and BOD apparently) that Reddan and Sexton would run the ball as they would under Schmidt to see if it bore fruitation. Although it was a good result, Kidney was not happy and as a result refused to play them together. The game Kidney wants is apparently cross-field kicks, playing the ball wide until a gap appears and using crash ball runners with backs running off them.

I wouldn't be surprised if Redden and Sexton did do a mini mutiny. The two of them probably could pull it off. The England match showed strength we haven't seen before or since in an Ireland jersey at least since our grandslam year.

thomond2006 · 11-09-2011 4:35pm

Interesting.

Chucky the tree · 11-09-2011 4:45pm

Stev_o wrote: »

Coaches can't be held responsible for players failing to tackle properly, getting over the gainline, being able to use their brain and play what's in front of them.

If a player can't tackle properly what's he doing out on the pitch?

SomeFool · 11-09-2011 4:49pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Interesting

It's not really, just rumour, suspicion and tripe talk.

Amazotheamazing · 11-09-2011 4:53pm

RoryMc23 wrote: »

It really is a carbon copy of 2007. Same excuses from people as well. Kidney must take the blame, it was under his tenure that the backline moves became non existent and his selections have been terrible.

I've heard from friend who plays for one of the provinces that against England in the 6 Nations match it was decided by a few senior players (Best, Heaslip and BOD apparently) that Reddan and Sexton would run the ball as they would under Schmidt to see if it bore fruitation. Although it was a good result, Kidney was not happy and as a result refused to play them together. The game Kidney wants is apparently cross-field kicks, playing the ball wide until a gap appears and using crash ball runners with backs running off them. He also wants forwards regularly out on the wings and thus isnt overly concerned with committing numbers to the ruck

I'd be amazed if that was true. I guess I've watched the majority of games that Kidney has coached over the last 13 or so years and he has no overall philosophy of how rugby should be played. He's a pragmatic coach who works with what he has. If he genuinely felt Ireland could play to Leinster's gameplan he'd simply copy it. Kidney got to where he did by being a realist, he knows the limitations of all his teams.

shuffol · 11-09-2011 4:55pm

IMO it all comes down to intensity and its just not there at the minute for whatever reason, whether its lack of hunger, desire, lack of confidence, lack of faith in the system, etc.

As for the coaches, personally I think they're a spent force, it feels like the end of EOS reign all over again.

Bogsnorkler · 11-09-2011 5:01pm

RoryMc23 wrote: »

It really is a carbon copy of 2007. Same excuses from people as well. Kidney must take the blame, it was under his tenure that the backline moves became non existent and his selections have been terrible.

I've heard from friend who plays for one of the provinces that against England in the 6 Nations match it was decided by a few senior players (Best, Heaslip and BOD apparently) that Reddan and Sexton would run the ball as they would under Schmidt to see if it bore fruitation. Although it was a good result, Kidney was not happy and as a result refused to play them together. The game Kidney wants is apparently cross-field kicks, playing the ball wide until a gap appears and using crash ball runners with backs running off them. He also wants forwards regularly out on the wings and thus isnt overly concerned with committing numbers to the ruck

I call bull****. Very convenient that no Munster player was involved in this. I think your pushing an agenda.

RoryMc23 · 11-09-2011 5:07pm

Bogsnorkler wrote: »

I call bull****. Very convenient that no Munster player was involved in this. I think your pushing an agenda.

I have no agenda, I am just saying what I heard from a former class mate who is playing for a particular province that would make your accusation seem even more ridiculous. What agenda would I be pushing? I just mentioned the names that were mentioend to me, maybe POC,Wallace, DOC were involved as well, I don't know.

phog · 11-09-2011 5:11pm

RoryMc23 wrote: »

It really is a carbon copy of 2007. Same excuses from people as well. Kidney must take the blame, it was under his tenure that the backline moves became non existent and his selections have been terrible.

I've heard from friend who plays for one of the provinces that against England in the 6 Nations match it was decided by a few senior players (Best, Heaslip and BOD apparently) that Reddan and Sexton would run the ball as they would under Schmidt to see if it bore fruitation. Although it was a good result, Kidney was not happy and as a result refused to play them together. The game Kidney wants is apparently cross-field kicks, playing the ball wide until a gap appears and using crash ball runners with backs running off them. He also wants forwards regularly out on the wings and thus isnt overly concerned with committing numbers to the ruck

Hearsay with absolutely no evidence of it other than Ireland having a good game and the big problem with this kind of post is that others will actually take it as gospel.

Bogsnorkler · 11-09-2011 5:13pm

There is no way that an action like that would have had no repercussions. If one says "well, maybe #Kidney is keeping quiet cos twill make him look bad" well tbh knowing the way kidney is he'd walk if there was a player revolt. He has always been an excellent player manager and well liked so I couldn't see it happen.

Also we often hear how much input the players (BOD in particular) has on the way the team play so a revolt would be unnecessary.

IMO it could be a mis representation of what happened i.e. players had input and this was taken on board.

shuffol · 11-09-2011 5:13pm

I think Heaslip could do with a kick up the arse, unfortunately dropping him isnt an option as you'd be rewarding Leamy for being just as bad. Its a real pity Wallace got injured as that pretty much eliminated any competition in the backrow, if he'd been fit the backrow for next week would be Ferris/Wallace/SOB. Its crazy how today our pack was carried by a guy who's played 2 games since January despite the fact they were up against ameteurs.

RoryMc23 · 11-09-2011 5:14pm

phog wrote: »

Hearsay with absolutely no evidence of it other than Ireland having a good game and the big problem with this kind of post is that others will actually take it as gospel.

So ignore it then if it offends you. I don't really care because I have no agenda I just thought people would be interested in hearing what I heard from someone actually involved in Irish rugby.

phog · 11-09-2011 5:18pm

RoryMc23 wrote: »

So ignore it then if it offends you. I don't really care because I have no agenda I just thought people would be interested in hearing what I heard from someone actually involved in Irish rugby.

I've no difficulty ignoring a post like that but what bothers me is that other posters seem to accept it as fact, btw if it did happen then I get rid of Sexton if I was the head coach.

SomeFool · 11-09-2011 5:19pm

RoryMc23 wrote: »

So ignore it then if it offends you. I don't really care because I have no agenda I just thought people would be interested in hearing what I heard from someone actually involved in Irish rugby.

Kidneys interviews not enough for ya :pac:

sting60 · 11-09-2011 6:00pm

BOD should be dropped with Darcy ,captain my arse he is shocking .He was captain in the last World cup and what did he do ll.Australia will love to attack our shower at 12 and 13 , BOD is so crap southern teams have been laughing for years.

Fight_Night · 11-09-2011 6:01pm

sting60 wrote: »

BOD should be dropped with Darcy ,captain my arse he is shocking .He was captain in the last World cup and what did he do ll.Australia will love to attack our shower at 12 and 13 , BOD is so crap southern teams have been laughing for years.

who do you propose we put in 13 instead of BOD? We already tried Earls and he is very clearly a winger not a centre. Darcy arguably should be dropped.

RoryMc23 · 11-09-2011 6:05pm

Fight_Night wrote: »

who do you propose we put in 13 instead of BOD? We already tried Earls and he is very clearly a winger not a centre. Darcy arguably should be dropped.

Don't fall for the bait

Fight_Night · 11-09-2011 6:09pm

RoryMc23 wrote: »

Don't fall for the bait

Yeah it's an obvious troll but I'm bored

jacothelad · 11-09-2011 6:20pm

sting60 wrote: »

BOD should be dropped with Darcy ,captain my arse he is shocking .He was captain in the last World cup and what did he do ll.Australia will love to attack our shower at 12 and 13 , BOD is so crap southern teams have been laughing for years.

If you argued that they should be dropped because of poor performances many would agree, at least about Darcy. However, BOD was the only player to come out of the last RWC with any credit. If the rest had played like him we'd have beaten Argentina and annihilated Georgia and Namibia. As for the last mindlessly cretinous sentence, it exposes your total lack of knowledge about world rugby.

ThelotusKid · 11-09-2011 6:28pm

shuffol wrote: »

I think Heaslip could do with a kick up the arse, unfortunately dropping him isnt an option as you'd be rewarding Leamy for being just as bad. Its a real pity Wallace got injured as that pretty much eliminated any competition in the backrow, if he'd been fit the backrow for next week would be Ferris/Wallace/SOB. Its crazy how today our pack was carried by a guy who's played 2 games since January despite the fact they were up against ameteurs.

Heaslip has looked disinterested for some time. The invention, flair and step he has shown in the past has evaporated.

sting60 · 11-09-2011 7:02pm

lologram wrote: »

There's no such thing as being cursed. In my opinion, the reasons we fail in World Cups/against SH teams are

1) not having the right tactics/preparation/selection
2) not having the right mentality (hearing about wanting to be 'underdogs' makes my head spin)
3) not being good enough sometimes (you're not going to win if the opposition, from time to time, is just plain better in all facets of the game).

1) and 2) can absolutely be fixed with the right coaching, and as you say, the right work from the players. You've just got to hope that you avoid 3) as much as possible.

We don't fault the players' commitment. We know that these guys go out there to do themselves, their country and their fans proud. But we need to question what it is they're committed to. The wrong gameplan and the wrong selection leaves us where we are now, with an incredibly disappointing string of results, and let's face it, a very unhappy aura around the national side. Just look at the posts on this forum for a sample.

So I say it's got to be the coaches, tactics and selection you look at first first. But I absolutely agree that you don't absolve players of responsibility. The way you respond to sub-par performances from a player is by playing someone else. However, the response for a coaching set-up is to remove the coaches, and that's a lot more high-profile. Hence Kidney et al. get most of the focus.

While I'm at it, could I mention one of my biggest bugbears is the idea of playing player X one week in a position and player Y next week implies that X was dropped in disgrace. Why does Irish rugby have such a thing against rotating players? Good luck to the team which only has one player for each position, such as... Ireland WC '07

And yes, some of this crop is just past it. Sad and all as it is.

Where was your post when I was banned from this site saying that the appointment of Kidney was a hugh mistake when appointed.Talking about the horse bolting,your points are meaningless now.

Reloc8 · 11-09-2011 7:04pm

RoryMc23 wrote: »

The game Kidney wants is apparently cross-field kicks, playing the ball wide until a gap appears and using crash ball runners with backs running off them. He also wants forwards regularly out on the wings and thus isnt overly concerned with committing numbers to the ruck

This is a perfectly credible way to play the game. Of course it has to be executed accurately, at pace, a la the All Blacks to succeed.

For some reason, the collective that is the Irish rugby team hasn't achieved this in ages.

It would not surprise me if the players on the pitch wanted to revert to a more structured running game as per the rest of your post (although...believe half of what you see and none of what you hear comes to mind at times like this) - i.e. set piece & planned move based. And again...what's wrong with a Plan B when Plan A has been non-functional.

mrpdap · 11-09-2011 7:40pm

catseye2 wrote: »

Absolutely agree.. Can't all be down to ISA . Either gaffney isnt able to deliver or kidney just can't motivate them to perform. I know some of these lads are getting past it but they seem to forget it all in a green jersey

Motivate them ? I know that's part of the coache's job but they shouldn't need Kidney or anyone else to motivate them, if they don't want to be there then step aside. I'm sure they're very motivated but something just ain't clicking, why all the endless talk about the 'happy camp', and how many times now have we heard players talk about 2007, move on lads, its 2011 (isn't it?).

Reloc8 · 11-09-2011 8:09pm

mrpdap wrote: »

...its 2010.

Ah here. Not knowing what year it is surely disqualifies you from commenting.

mrpdap · 11-09-2011 8:37pm

Reloc8 wrote: »

Ah here. Not knowing what year it is surely disqualifies you from commenting.

feel I'm in a time warp, will eventually be back in 2007....:)

Player Accountability

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