How to go about beating the big 3

twinytwo

So we play the aussies in the group, and assuming we dont have a brain fart like 07 and keep going into the knockouts we will have prob end up playing one of the other 2 at some stage.

Having seen a pull out in the paper the other day with comments on how to beat them..

NZ- stay with them, as they panic if they have not put teams away going into the last 15.( not too sure about this one tbh)

AUS- Plain and simply get to genia.. rattle him and you get to their whole back line.

SA- Make them realize they are not as hard as they think they are.( good luck with that one)

Realistically though we have to hit their weaknesses so what if any do you think they are?

As far as I'm concerned, whilst you need to be aware of their strengths and weaknesses and look to capitalise on them - the reality is that beating a top 3 team is more about playing to your own strengths and minimising errors than it is purely about exploiting flaws.

If 4 - 6 ranked teams show up and play to their best strengths whilst not failing in any particular area they can take scalps. It's about consistency.

Piliger

I will be astonished if we make it out of our group and doing so should be our sole concern right now.

We have beaten Aus and SA before and can do it again. It will all depend on the mental intensity we can bring to the field imho, not any special tacts.

theboss80

Minimal handling errors and excellent discipline and defense

wixfjord

Piliger wrote: »

I will be astonished if we make it out of our group and doing so should be our sole concern right now.

We have beaten Aus and SA before and can do it again. It will all depend on the mental intensity we can bring to the field imho, not any special tacts.

Ah come on now.
Most on here would be bitterly dissapointed and surprised if we failed to make it out of the group. It would be a serious catastrophe if we didn't.

irishbucsfan

Amazing that someone would be astonished if we can beat teams who have never beaten us in their entire history.

Talk about hysteria.

We can beat anyone in the world on our day.

phog

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Amazing that someone would be astonished if we can beat teams who have never beaten us in their entire history.Talk about hysteria.

We can beat anyone in the world on our day.

There's always a first time and hopefully Ireland beating NZ for the first time will happen in the 2011 W/C

GerM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Amazing that someone would be astonished if we can beat teams who have never beaten us in their entire history.

Talk about hysteria.

We can beat anyone in the world on our day.

It is, more than likely, going to come down to a single game against Italy who have beaten us in the past. In fact, there was a period in the not too distant past when we did nothing but lose to them.

I think we'll get through our group but it's not going to be a walk in the park. Italy will play this weekend and then lock themselves away, training and preparing with the sole purpose of beating us. They've gone to NZ with one target in mind and that is to send us packing in our match. One or two injuries to our pack and it really could be a very nervous game.

theboss80

GerM wrote: »

It is, more than likely, going to come down to a single game against Italy who have beaten us in the past. In fact, there was a period in the not too distant past when we did nothing but lose to them.
.

We have only ever been beaten by them 3 times , the last time being 1997

GerM

theboss80 wrote: »

We have only ever been beaten by them 3 times , the last time being 1997

I wouldn't consider that being ancient history, personally. It was in the professional era. We lost to them 3 times on the bounce. Regardless, the point was that we have lost to them before and the group is going to come down to one single game on neutral ground against them. We're one or two injuries from the game being on a knife edge. If we were to lose Mike Ross alone, it will be a very uncomfortable match.

theboss80

Our current players have never lost to their current players. I think we have what it takes to keep that record. True that we are a couple injuries away from a creaky scrum but so are they to be fair I'd say.

Gonna be a huge match and can't wait for it but seeing as its the WC I cannot see the players making the same performance they did at the 6N.

little173

Piliger wrote: »

I will be astonished if we make it out of our group and doing so should be our sole concern right now.

We have beaten Aus and SA before and can do it again. It will all depend on the mental intensity we can bring to the field imho, not any special tacts.

You will be "astonished" if we beat Italy then? Surely you cant mean USA and Russia as well. I know we havent exactly being playing great but we we have beaten Italy 14 times in row by the way!.

siltirocker

theboss80 wrote: »

Minimal handling errors and excellent discipline and defense

In fairness, Ireland could potentially be the No. 1 team in the world with those two minor things constantly in their game. And a good run of games to produce confidence to back it up.

I truly believe that.

On our day we are as good as the Wallabies on their day. FACT.

irishbucsfan

No wonder the team say they were demoralised when they were still in Ireland. They have to listen to Irish people talking them down and lowering expectations all the time.

We have one of the best squads in the competition. We have dominated northern hemisphere rugby for the past 5 years, winning the Heineken Cup repeatedly. We won a grand slam not too long ago and our players and players are repeatedly winning awards or being nominated amongst the best in the world.

We are better than Italy in every single position. We shouldn't be going around moaning and criticising our team. We should be behind them and rooting for them.

There was a period in 09 when we rightfully felt we could beat any team in the world. That year not a single team could beat us. We were bemoaning the fact we didn't schedule a game against New Zealand because we felt we could beat them. Irish fans were behind their team and were pushing them forward. We beat a South African team who wiped the floor with their Tri-Nations opponents. The team were full of confidence and that was largely because the fans were full of confidence.

I WOULD BE ASTONISHED IF WE CAN MAKE IT OUT OF THE GROUP. We're in a group with Russia, Italy and the USA. They aren't even close to being on our level. We should go out and obliterate them. And we should turn our sights to Australia and come at them with the force of a nation who have beaten them before and can beat them again. They have huge weaknesses, as they showed against Samoa and others recently.

The only difference between 2009 and today is the crushing pessimism that greats our guys any time they open an Irish newspaper or tune in to an Irish radio station. In fact Irish rugby is in better shape now than it was in '09.



How do we beat the top 3?

Australia: Keep Pocock busy and have Ferris in his face at every offensive breakdown. Have O'Brien, Heaslip, Healy running straight at the defenseless Cooper. Question whether we really want to kick the ball to Beale, and instead of a kicking game keep possession and attempt to draw penalties from them, which hasn't been hard.

South Africa: Keep the contact areas few and far between. Far between being the most important part. Use O'Gara, and hope O'Connell can beat Matfield in the lineouts like he did in 09.

New Zealand: God knows.

wonton

I think that's one thing people dont seem to notice either, the team we have now is actually better than the 09 team. Imagine if we had healy,ross and O'brien that year with the confidence running as high as it was.

Kiwi_knock

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Australia: Keep Pocock busy and have Ferris in his face at every offensive breakdown. Have O'Brien, Heaslip, Healy running straight at the defenseless Cooper. Question whether we really want to kick the ball to Beale, and instead of a kicking game keep possession and attempt to draw penalties from them, which hasn't been hard.

Cooper will not be defending from 10, they will shift him to full back or wing and bring in Ioane or Beale to defend at 10.

To beat Australia we have to retain possession, needlessly kicking the ball away will just give chances to Beale, Cooper and Ioane to slice through our defence. We have to be very competitive at the breakdown and slow the ball down as much as possible. Cut down any space. Try and dominate the set piece. Australia are beatable, if we force them into a kicking game we should be able to win.

To beat SA we have to be very physical and confrontational, a game against them will require our players to be at full fitness. SA's backline to do not scare but it will be their pack which will do the damage.

To beat NZ we will have to be on the top of our game both physically and mentally, even then I think it would be a struggle to win.

BarackPyjama

Piliger wrote: »

I will be astonished if we make it out of our group

You'll be astonished if we beat USA, Russia and Italy? I don't think we've ever lost to any of these teams in the professional era. Why would you be astonished :eek:

corny

I thought the top 3 included France at the minute. It should do imo. I'd certainly fancy them to take the Boks and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if they take NZ or Australia.

NZ: Don't let them play their high tempo game and you might (big might for us) have a chance.

Australia: Basically strangle them up front if you can. The English are good at this.

SA: Keep the tempo high and defend well off the set piece. They'll score the majority of their tries from hard running off good lineout ball.

France: We won't beat them.

If we played as well as we can we could beat SA and Australia. I don't hold much hope we can reach that level though.

sock puppet

corny wrote: »

I thought the top 3 included France at the minute. It should do imo. I'd certainly fancy them to take the Boks and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if they take NZ or Australia.

NZ: Don't let them play their high tempo game and you might (big might for us) have a chance.

Australia: Basically strangle them up front if you can. The English are good at this.

SA: Keep the tempo high and defend well off the set piece. They'll score the majority of their tries from hard running off good lineout ball.

France: We won't beat them.

If we played as well as we can we could beat SA and Australia. I don't hold much hope we can reach that level though.

France were annihilated the last time they played each of the Tri Nations teams. Capable of beating the Boks but wouldn't be ranked ahead.

twinytwo

Lets assume for a sec we lose to AUS in out group and win the rest of our games. We get SA in the QF(im assuming they are going to win theirs). IN a one off game against we can beat them, i would see them as currently being the "weakest" of the big 3.

If and i say again if we can beat the saffers, we get the winners of england v France in the semi. Its hard to know who wins this game. (again im assuming the AB's beat france,).... at this point anything could happen.

The route to the final is very reachable for us.

Aus take the abs in the other semi we take aus in the final.. boom happy days:pac:

JustinDee

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

Cooper will not be defending from 10, they will shift him to full back or wing and bring in Ioane or Beale to defend at 10

In the Aussie third of the pitch, he goes to 13 and a back-five player (preferred) goes 10/12. Ioane would never be a line defender anywhere except wide.

profitius

I'm in a minority here in saying that I think SA will be harder opposition than Australia. The Aussies won the try nations but the other 2 teams were not concentrating on it. Also, they'll be hot favourites coming up against an Ireland team under no pressure, packed with players who are used to winning things. It should be closer than people think.

Its been made clear that in the 4 warm up matches, Ireland were holding things back. It clearly looked like they were too.

I also think the Irish front row can give the Aussies front row all sorts of problems. The Aussies have improved but the Irish front row have been putting every opposition they've met under pressure last season and against France a few weeks back they French were under more pressure.

bamboozle

profitius wrote: »

I'm in a minority here in saying that I think SA will be harder opposition than Australia. The Aussies won the try nations but the other 2 teams were not concentrating on it. Also, they'll be hot favourites coming up against an Ireland team under no pressure, packed with players who are used to winning things. It should be closer than people think.

Its been made clear that in the 4 warm up matches, Ireland were holding things back. It clearly looked like they were too.

I also think the Irish front row can give the Aussies front row all sorts of problems. The Aussies have improved but the Irish front row have been putting every opposition they've met under pressure last season and against France a few weeks back they French were under more pressure.

i dunno, thing about SA is that we know how they will play, parity up front, disrupt their lineout and ruffle Steyne's feathers and we'd be in with a chance.
for OZ we need to hope to be able to dominate the scrum & lineout and have our back row treat oz attackers like skittles. Tight frustrating game against oz would work.
to beat new zealand, hope that McCaw & Carter are injured going into the game, hope there's a referee out there brave enough to call the NZ pack's consistant offsides, physically target Dagg.

in reality i'd think if we were playing Oz in our last pool game we'd have some chance but that game's too soon, who knows if SA have suffered some injuries by the quarters we could take them, but then again will Ferris by still fit by them, on the plus side by the QF's Kearney, Darcy, BOD, Flannery, Ferris should all be fully match fit.

twinytwo

profitius wrote: »

I'm in a minority here in saying that I think SA will be harder opposition than Australia. The Aussies won the try nations but the other 2 teams were not concentrating on it. Also, they'll be hot favourites coming up against an Ireland team under no pressure, packed with players who are used to winning things. It should be closer than people think.

Its been made clear that in the 4 warm up matches, Ireland were holding things back. It clearly looked like they were too.

I also think the Irish front row can give the Aussies front row all sorts of problems. The Aussies have improved but the Irish front row have been putting every opposition they've met under pressure last season and against France a few weeks back they French were under more pressure.

I think everyone hopes they were holding back... personally i cant see them letting england beat them not a home.

twinytwo

bamboozle wrote: »

i dunno, thing about SA is that we know how they will play, parity up front, disrupt their lineout and ruffle Steyne's feathers and we'd be in with a chance.
for OZ we need to hope to be able to dominate the scrum & lineout and have our back row treat oz attackers like skittles. Tight frustrating game against oz would work.
to beat new zealand, hope that McCaw & Carter are injured going into the game, hope there's a referee out there brave enough to call the NZ pack's consistant offsides, physically target Dagg.

in reality i'd think if we were playing Oz in our last pool game we'd have some chance but that game's too soon, who knows if SA have suffered some injuries by the quarters we could take them, but then again will Ferris by still fit by them, on the plus side by the QF's Kearney, Darcy, BOD, Flannery, Ferris should all be fully match fit.

I dont think SA are that big a threat, obviously we dont underestimate them but their biggest threat was always their lineout. POC is more than a match for matfield. Our pack should hold its own assuming ross and healy play. Our backrow is on par if not better than theirs.

So long as we can avoid their " If you cant beat them, break them" mentality we should come out on top

CatFromHue

Well we've a pretty good record against SA over the last few years. I think we've beaten them in 3 of the last 4! So we do know how to beat them. Even in that game last November while they were on top we could have snuck a draw.

Australia are a bit different. Everyone keeps going on about how good they are since they beat the All Blacks and have won the Tri Nations. Both great things to be doing but there is more to it. South Africa didn't really play the Tri Nations this year and it was effectively their first game when they came up against the Aussies in South Africa as they had already rested so many players. The kiwi's wiped the floor with Australia when they played their first choice team against them at the start of the tournament in NZ. So what people are going on about is the last game against the All Blacks. What should be mentioned here is that NZ played alot of that game with 3 second rows and 2 flankers. Both Read and Thompson went off injured which was a big blow as the back row is where the Oz pack is at it's strongest. What I do find really interesting about that game is the turn around NZ did in bringing the score from 20 - 3 to 20 all. They used their tight five predominantly to pick and go. It took less than 20 mins to even the scores. I personally think the Ireland Oz game is going to be very tight as while they have momentuum they are not better than us. Better than us in some areas but weaker in others too.

How do we beat NZ? I think composure and confidence is a big thing. We've played games against them were we have been evens or ahead coming into the late stages of the game when they would up a gear or capatalise on a simple mistake to win the game. We've also played games against them when we had been forcing it or rushing ourselves. If we had been more composed and confident we would have won. (There have also been games were they anhilated us but let's not talk about them!)

molloyjh

Oz: Ball up the jumper, slow the whole thing down and strangle them up front. They've shown a few times in the last couple of months that they can't handle that style of play. Give them time and space and they will wipe the floor with us. Take that from them and they have very little. Avoid kicking possession away as much as possible, something we've tended to do a lot of recently.

SA: If we can take them on and gain parity up front and use that to free up our backline I think we can open them up. That would be an incredibly tough physical battle but if we can live with that and get something going in our back line we stand a good chance.

NZ: Remove errors completely and keep up with them for the full 80. In the AIs last year there was a 12 minute period where we fell off the pace and we paid for it dearly (we still may not have won but it would have been close). If we stick with them for the full 80 and minimise errors then we're in with a shout. At the end of the day that's the best we can hope for I'd say. A rub of the green - the bounce of a ball or referee decision - could make a big of difference.

mrboswell

theboss80 wrote: »

We have only ever been beaten by them 3 times , the last time being 1997

...and we were completely **** back then.

It is completely different now. We are a professional, well-oiled unit (even if we don't often look it).
We are in another league to Italy, even if we make it hard for ourselves.

How to beat the big 3?
OZ and SA - as kiwi_knock said above.
NZ - be prepared to challenge hard every ruck out of penalty range. Be prepared to concede trys but play an all out expansive attacking game and score more trys. I've never seen us play like we think we are as good as them and maybe thats why we have never beaten them. They showed France the outside in 2007 and France called them on it. Nice if we had the balls to do it as well and go down with a real fight.

twinytwo

CatFromHue wrote: »

Well we've a pretty good record against SA over the last few years. I think we've beaten them in 3 of the last 4! So we do know how to beat them. Even in that game last November while they were on top we could have snuck a draw.

Australia are a bit different. Everyone keeps going on about how good they are since they beat the All Blacks and have won the Tri Nations. Both great things to be doing but there is more to it. South Africa didn't really play the Tri Nations this year and it was effectively their first game when they came up against the Aussies in South Africa as they had already rested so many players. The kiwi's wiped the floor with Australia when they played their first choice team against them at the start of the tournament in NZ. So what people are going on about is the last game against the All Blacks. What should be mentioned here is that NZ played alot of that game with 3 second rows and 2 flankers. Both Read and Thompson went off injured which was a big blow as the back row is where the Oz pack is at it's strongest. What I do find really interesting about that game is the turn around NZ did in bringing the score from 20 - 3 to 20 all. They used their tight five predominantly to pick and go. It took less than 20 mins to even the scores. I personally think the Ireland Oz game is going to be very tight as while they have momentuum they are not better than us. Better than us in some areas but weaker in others too.

How do we beat NZ? I think composure and confidence is a big thing. We've played games against them were we have been evens or ahead coming into the late stages of the game when they would up a gear or capatalise on a simple mistake to win the game. We've also played games against them when we had been forcing it or rushing ourselves. If we had been more composed and confident we would have won. (There have also been games were they anhilated us but let's not talk about them!)

I think that none of the irish team believe 100% that we are capable of beating them... hence why we never do.

JustinDee

twinytwo wrote: »

I think that none of the irish team believe 100% that we are capable of beating them

You'd be wrong.
This is a confident, capable and tough squad.
They're not there to make up numbers.

twinytwo

JustinDee wrote: »

You'd be wrong.
This is a confident, capable and tough squad.
They're not there to make up numbers.

I mean along the lines of a mentality of "we can beat them" compared to one of "we will beat them"

profitius

They have the master motivator in Declan Kidney. I think in that regard theres no better coaches out there.

Scott Holden had come in as forwards coach when Kidney took over and remembers the meticulousness of the planning under the future Ireland coach. “I remember warming up in the dressingroom before we played Clontarf. Mobile phones had just come in and we were getting geared up for battle when my phone goes off and it’s Deccie ringing from Argentina. “So, I’m there on the phone in the dressingroom passing on what Deccie was saying. It wasn’t quite, ‘Okay lads, Deccie says pull the chain’, but near enough. “Maybe it wasn’t ideal but it showed how much he put into his coaching; he was halfway across the world but it was killing him not to be there,” says Holden.

“He was brilliant to work with – he knew exactly what he wanted and it made coaching very easy for me. He definitely got the best out of me.” At the start of that promotion season, Kidney had taken the squad on tour to Torquay and deliberately let them off the leash as he sought to create a bond that would stand to them for the battles ahead. Each night, the players would arrive back in dribs and drabs to the hotel and go downstairs to the residents bar where they were allowed to run amok by the indulgent owners, who had no other guests to kick up a fuss. It was messy, childish and spirit-forging. That season came down to a match away to Malone that Dolphin had to win to get promotion. Hundreds of club members made the long journey north, as well as representatives of Cork print and radio media, and the players knew they were playing for history. “We had a run-out on the morning of the game and were getting the bus back to the hotel,” remembers scrum-half Paul Buckley. “It was incredibly tense and all of a sudden, Deccie gets up and puts a video into the machine.

“Next thing, we see shots of fellas acting the maggot in Torquay – let's just say there was pool, darts and human pyramids, and not a whole lot of clothing. “Talk about attention to detail... he had got the CCTV tape off the hotel, held on to it for six months and produced it at a key moment. It broke the tension completely and we blew away a Malone team that had some serious players like Maurice Field, Colin Wilkinson and Stuart Duncan.” Kidney’s success with Dolphin attracted Munster’s attention – albeit reluctantly, after they were turned down by Andy Leslie and John Bevan – and, suddenly, he was gone to a higher calling.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-cup/the-kidney-chronicles-2871439.html

petethedrummer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No wonder the team say they were demoralised when they were still in Ireland. They have to listen to Irish people talking them down and lowering expectations all the time.

No wonder they keep losing if a bit of negative criticism is all it takes to knock them off their stride. They must not have a very professional mindset. Anyway if they're happy enough to use the media to line their pockets they should be grown up enough to take some criticism.

daithimacgroin

south africa to top their group is a big assumption to make.
ireland might be better off playing a weakened team against australia either way
as south africa look extremely poor and over the hill,
most of their players should have been put to pasture after the lions tour.

Some may argue they're the world champions, but they barely won a notoriously poor world cup with an extremely easy run to the final where they played a poor equally negative English team.

mrboswell

daithimacgroin wrote: »

south africa look extremely poor and over the hill,
most of their players should have been put to pasture after the lions tour.

Famous last words...

Its all about intensity. If we can match their intensity at the breakdown/tackle the odds against us plummet.

For Australia, we need to get under their skin, force them into errors at the breakdown and generally stay in their faces all game and they will give away peno after peno and ROG/Sexton will do the rest

If we are unlucky against the aussies then it will be probably SA in the pissing rain in Wellington.. I think its pretty astonishing that people are writing the boks off, I honestly think they will eat us in the quarter final. They are just too powerful up front and I have a feeling we wont match their intensity.


The All Blacks? Jesus wept, not a hope.

yupyup7up

Don't commit 6 to every ruck (NZ and SA) and don't kick to their back 3 (Losses to NZ, OZ and France are nearly always because of this stupid tactic :mad:)

siltirocker

yupyup7up wrote: »

Don't commit 6 to every ruck (NZ and SA) and don't kick to their back 3 (Losses to NZ, OZ and France are nearly always because of this stupid tactic :mad:)

We have a winner. Simple as.

P.S The only kicking we should be doing against them is the odd cross field or the fly half going for touch. NEVER in play territory kicking. Or Rob Kearney blasting one into Beale or Ioane's hands. That Aussie back 3 makes me piss my pants.