Vintage Swiss as a Daily Beater?

Snake_Doctor · 06-09-2011 2:19pm #1

I’m on the lookout for a daily beater and reading some through some of the excellent info here, (especially from Marcus1971) I was thinking that a vintage swiss (new old stock maybe?) would make a good choice as I want an Automatic with a date, and I suspect that the 60’s to 70’s stuff is well built. I am looking for the best bang for the buck - Max 100 Euro range, don’t particularly care about branding but would like a good solid make (The Volkswagen of its day!)
I am looking at something like this (Markus mentioned shockproof in another thread) and would appreciate any thoughts, advice on what to go for. Is there a specific movement that I should look for (The 2824 of its day?).
Would I be better to get something for around the 60 Dollar range and get it serviced (and where would one get a good watchmaker to service a vintage Auto in Ireland?)
All input appreciated....
Peasant – Before you say it - I already have a few Russians including a K-34 but want to try something different

Wibbs · 06-09-2011 2:46pm

I dunno if a 100 quid budget will get you much TBH. I'd be thinking of a figure nearer 400 myself.

Eoin · 06-09-2011 3:14pm

I was playing around with the idea as well, but most of the ones I could find for under €100 were a bit ropey looking. The ones from India etc looked suspiciously fresh, so were at least repainted dials, if not entirely frankenwatches!

I'm still keeping an eye out though, I don't know how much this Ernest Borel will go for, but it's worth monitoring. Edit, there's longer than I thought on that auction; will probably go for a good bit more.

Ghost Train · 06-09-2011 3:23pm

Was going to mention looking at the watches from India
Here's one seller. Picture are pretty detailed showing what you're buying
http://myworld.ebay.com/watchdot/

Snake_Doctor · 06-09-2011 7:14pm

Man, worth a punt at that price, sure if you got a month out of them you're quids in

Wibbs · 06-09-2011 8:39pm

The Indian stuff is in the majority pretty crappy. I'd take any description with a pinch of salt. Personally I'd avoid. Might be worth a punt at the prices, but... Put it another way our own fair Peasant who knows, likes and can spot a bargain better than any Kerryman steers well clear of them. For good reason IMHO.

marcus1971 · 06-09-2011 9:10pm

Monty Burnz · 06-09-2011 9:49pm

marcus1971 wrote: »

There are also Tressa, which are Rado rebadged for the middle eastern market

Cool. I did not know that.

I know that India is shockin' bad for the frankens and dodgy redials, but what is the issue with the Israeli sellers? I only bought one from there before, an Omega Seamaster 30 which I bought for about 90 dollars and it's sitting on my wrist right now. I reckon it went so cheap because the seller put up some awful photos, but you could see the watch wasn't too bad. When it turned up it was totally original and in lovely nick apart from a small bit of flaking around a couple of the painted second dots between 3 and 4, not noticeable unless you really look (seems to be silver paint on a silver dial), and the usual tool marks from case-opening on the back. The movement is beautiful too. I guess I got lucky, and my experience was not necessarily typical?

Another thing that puzzles me is where the hell these guys get all the watches to sell, all sorts of random stuff. These guys are based in Spain and seem to have shifted towards selling new stuff and straps, but they sold thousands of used watches of all stripes for a few years. Where do these guys who sell 50 watches a week on the 'Bay get them all from?

From Israel, there's these guys. From Switzerland, these guys, and from Singapore, these guys.

marcus1971 · 07-09-2011 2:10am

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Cool. I did not know that.

I know that India is shockin' bad for the frankens and dodgy redials, but what is the issue with the Israeli sellers? I only bought one from there before, an Omega Seamaster 30 which I bought for about 90 dollars and it's sitting on my wrist right now. I reckon it went so cheap because the seller put up some awful photos, but you could see the watch wasn't too bad. When it turned up it was totally original and in lovely nick apart from a small bit of flaking around a couple of the painted second dots between 3 and 4, not noticeable unless you really look (seems to be silver paint on a silver dial), and the usual tool marks from case-opening on the back. The movement is beautiful too. I guess I got lucky, and my experience was not necessarily typical?

Another thing that puzzles me is where the hell these guys get all the watches to sell, all sorts of random stuff. These guys are based in Spain and seem to have shifted towards selling new stuff and straps, but they sold thousands of used watches of all stripes for a few years. Where do these guys who sell 50 watches a week on the 'Bay get them all from?
From Israel, there's these guys. From Switzerland, these guys, and from Singapore, these guys.

I suppose I should really take that comment back, anything thats coming in at the 100ish Euro mark is going to be ok no matter where it comes from once it both works and is serviceable, redials/frankens and transplants don't really matter for those prices, so my bad on that one..... I wouldn't spend much more than 100 though

Where do they all come from? well if selling watches is your full time job, you will get them from lots of places:

How many people have brought a watch in for repair to be told its not worth what it would cost.....where do all of these watches (that usually take 5mins to fix) end up?

Consider that in places like Madrid, Barcelona, Rome etc. that the natives can steal you underpants right off your a55 without you even feeling the breeze.....lots of watches too, not just underpants

, they all end up for sale somewhere.

Then there are pawn auctions, estate auctions, lost and found auctions, seized goods etc. etc.

Places like Singapore are huge markets for makers like Rolex and Omega and there is traditionally no interest there in antiques or vintages, they want new and they want it now, when its 3 or 4 years old they want another new one....I suppose they probably just trade in what they already have against a new one and if there is no market there for secondhand they are only too happy to sell them to us.....and we are only too happy to buy them!!

Also a lot of what you see on eBay is and has been for sale for well over a year in some cases.... Sept 27th 2010 I sold a vintage Omega Chrono,
there had been about half a dozen of the same watches in much much worse condition for sale at that time for $2000-$3500 and I sold mine at that time for $1450, and it was almost mint.........the other half dozen are still listed for sale at exactly the same prices and will probably still be there this time next year, so I think a lot of whats for sale from week to week is rollover stock.

Snake_Doctor · 07-09-2011 9:47am

My hat goes off to the information supplied here, its exactly what i was looking for. I am leaning towards This one the New Old Stock, with the same supplier that Marcus used as I don't think I will do any better especially as Marcus has dealt with him and was happy.
One more question, in his listings he mentions that the seal is over 30 years old, I usually wear my watches in the shower, is it a difficult job to get a new seal for these old watches, and could my local Jeweller replace it?
Again, thanks for the info,
S'Doc

Wibbs · 07-09-2011 11:23am

I'd not trust any vintage watch's water resistance beyond the odd splash of water. Not without a full restoration job anyway and only if they had a good water resistant design in the first place. Even new old stock. Like you say the 30 year old seals can perish. Its not just the seal at the back, it's the seal at the glass and the seal at the crown(if it's not a screwdown crown). Showers can be a problem because of the temperature. I'd just take it off before hopping in the shower myself.

marcus1971 · 07-09-2011 2:26pm

Snake_Doctor wrote: »

My hat goes off to the information supplied here, its exactly what i was looking for. I am leaning towards This one the New Old Stock, with the same supplier that Marcus used as I don't think I will do any better especially as Marcus has dealt with him and was happy.
One more question, in his listings he mentions that the seal is over 30 years old, I usually wear my watches in the shower, is it a difficult job to get a new seal for these old watches, and could my local Jeweller replace it?
Again, thanks for the info,
S'Doc

That would be exactly my choice too, good value for money.
I hate giving direct recommendations - just in case, but the two I got from him were honestly brand new inside and out, I just dug out mine for a once over and two shakes and off they were ticking and keeping time so far, so hopefully if you get one from him it will be just as good.....the only minus is the strap which is a bit cheap, but they are new which I suppose is better than one that has been on a hairy, sweaty arm for the last 20 years.....ugggh, dunno how anybody can wear a second hand leather strap.
The watch has a 3 language day wheel and the date is set with a button at 4, nothing is screwdown, so even from new it would not have been suitable for anything other than splash resistance, just like 99.9% of all the watches from that time really.

Seals are really easy to replace, every watchmaker will have a huge bag of various sizes that will have one to fit, I checked mine and the seals have never been changed and are perfect, probably an idea to grease them, buy one of these and do it yourself,

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENIE254&q=kiwi+shoe+shine&gs_upl=396l3780l0l3980l15l14l0l2l2l0l428l3122l0.2.6.3.1l12l0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=10683114795606319163&sa=X&ei=5H1nTqz0EIPEgAf15e3dDA&ved=0CHQQ8gIwBA#

.....and if you use it on all of your watches, every year or so, you will find that the seals will last a very very long time

I think he is just covering himself in case some idiot goes swimming with one and then looks for a refund if it leaks

As for wearing your watches in the shower, this is something that maybe you should rethink..... I know the emphasis that manufacturers put on regular servicing and replacing seals, I personally think its a bit ott, but if you really do use your dive watch for what its intended I suppose its important to be sure. For the 99.99% of us that wouldn't swim from one end of the year to the other never mind dive I really think its unnecessary....BUT, I have read in lots of posts (mostly on WUS, which is full of tossers for the mostpart....especially the Omega forum, so a lot of what I read there is taken with a pinch of salt) there seems to be a lot of "documented evidence" that showering, even with the most robust of divers, is a bad idea...... sudden shifts in temprature cold-hot-cold will have the components expanding/contracting at different rates - especially the sapphire crystal vs. the steel case - which is bad in itself, considering the steamy environment, but might also leave the rubber components momentarily exposed to attack from whatever you use to beautify yourself, especially anything with any kind of mineral oil.....
Manufcturers like Omega will recommend strongly against wearing your watch in the shower and cite that the watch only ever be rinsed in cool water and cleaned with a soft toothbrush and some dishsoap.......
.....but then again there is a bloke on the Rolex Forum that cleans his watches in the dishwasher.

Snake_Doctor · 07-09-2011 2:43pm

Yes,
I found out the hard way with my k-34, I have got a tiny bit of moisture on the inside of the glass. The only reason I wear it to the shower is the lazy mans way of keeping it clean, thats the end of that.
Incredibly, my 40 euro Vostok Amphibia easily stands up to the shower, for well over a year now, no problems.
I absolutely agree on the leather strap, I normally bin them and replace with a stainless steel watchadoo, very robust for everyday use, and doesnt smell. They are a bit expensive alright, but they could tow a car.
The only leather strap I will wear is on dress watches, out for a meal etc.
I wont bother with replacing the seal so, its only going to get normal everyday wear, getting the odd drop of rain from the car to the office is the extent of it.
OK, will pull the trigger as soon as funds allow! (and the wife is away:D)

Edit: Good idea on the grease, does the back just screw off, is there a tool for that? The grease link is for shoeshine?

m4r10 · 07-09-2011 4:10pm

To unscrew the back you need a watch case opener, you can easily find one on the flee bay for a few quid. As for the grease, I use silicone based grease and so far I had no problems with my watches after I changed the batteries on them.

Bullseye1 · 07-09-2011 4:47pm

Brilliant as always Marcus.

marcus1971 · 07-09-2011 7:12pm

Snake_Doctor wrote: »

Yes,

Edit: Good idea on the grease, does the back just screw off, is there a tool for that? The grease link is for shoeshine?

Yup the caseback screws off, best thing for it is a Horb Sticky Ball..(never scratches em), find em on eBay or another option is a simple duct tape ball .... roll a length of duct tape into a ball and twist off the back with it, usually works on most casebacks.
The shoeshine stuff is simple silicone grease delivered via a sponge, not that its any cheaper than just buying silicone grease the thing is that its available in almost every supermarket in the country, just press on the sponge a few times and it will release some silicone, roll the gasket around it a bit and viola you are ready to go, advantage with this is that its not going to overload the gasket with too much silicone....also good for putting a bit of life back into a weathered leather strap and a rub on a steel bracelet can help with squeaks.

If you ever do get a bit of moisture into a watch and dont think its worth taking to a watchfixer or opening it up, just pull out the crown(s) and put it into a cup of rice (obviously not cooked) and leave it there for a day or two, dont use a hairdryer or anything with too much heat to it....on some watches the hairspring is glued on at one end and you could melt the glue and be left with a pita repair.

Snake_Doctor · 07-09-2011 11:18pm

marcus1971 wrote: »

Yup the caseback screws off, best thing for it is a Horb Sticky Ball..(never scratches em), find em on eBay or another option is a simple duct tape ball .... roll a length of duct tape into a ball and twist off the back with it, usually works on most casebacks.
The shoeshine stuff is simple silicone grease delivered via a sponge, not that its any cheaper than just buying silicone grease the thing is that its available in almost every supermarket in the country, just press on the sponge a few times and it will release some silicone, roll the gasket around it a bit and viola you are ready to go, advantage with this is that its not going to overload the gasket with too much silicone....also good for putting a bit of life back into a weathered leather strap and a rub on a steel bracelet can help with squeaks.

If you ever do get a bit of moisture into a watch and dont think its worth taking to a watchfixer or opening it up, just pull out the crown(s) and put it into a cup of rice (obviously not cooked) and leave it there for a day or two, dont use a hairdryer or anything with too much heat to it....on some watches the hairspring is glued on at one end and you could melt the glue and be left with a pita repair.

I like the duct tape - it appeals to my cheap side and my Mackiver side (yes i know its spelt wrong, blame the wine)
The rice - thats just pure genius, or I can rob a load of desiccant from work - I suspect its the same principle!
OK, the shoeshine is an excellent idea as well - Marcus what the hell do you do for a living? are you some sort of economist watch Genius?:D

marcus1971 · 07-09-2011 11:56pm

Snake_Doctor wrote: »

desiccant from work - I suspect its the same principle!

Yup, or if you have kids of a certain age shred a Pampers or a Huggie, they are full of what looks like microscopic powdery gel balls, get em out of the pad and put them in a bowl or something and that will work too.

B1gft · 13-09-2011 7:42am

Wibbs wrote: »

The Indian stuff is in the majority pretty crappy. I'd take any description with a pinch of salt. Personally I'd avoid. Might be worth a punt at the prices, but... Put it another way our own fair Peasant who knows, likes and can spot a bargain better than any Kerryman steers well clear of them. For good reason IMHO.

I was reading in the wus forum that you should be safe buying on the internet if the seller has a large number of sales with a high percentage of positive feedback.
Taking that advice into account I would have purchased from
watchdot who has ( 10376) sales, with 98.6% Positive feedback.

Now I am really confused. Surely, out of 10376 sales he would not have such a high positive feedback, unless the watches were ok.

Bullseye1 · 13-09-2011 7:55am

The negative feedback maybe to do with shipping out slowly, not responding to emails. There are alot of nervous buyers out there.

Eoin · 13-09-2011 8:54am

B1gft wrote: »

I was reading in the wus forum that you should be safe buying on the internet if the seller has a large number of sales with a high percentage of positive feedback.
Taking that advice into account I would have purchased from
watchdot who has ( 10376) sales, with 98.6% Positive feedback.

Now I am really confused. Surely, out of 10376 sales he would not have such a high positive feedback, unless the watches were ok.

Read some of the negative feedback and see what you think. Change the feedback display setting to show 200 messages per page, and you can scan through them.

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=AllFeedback&userid=watchdot&iid=-1&de=off&interval=0&items=200

B1gft · 13-09-2011 11:55am

Eoin, very good point, after reading those negative reviews I would not go near him either. Just shows, me and i assume thousands, just look at the percentages and make a decision. Wont any more. Thanks for the tip.

Eoin · 13-09-2011 12:04pm

Just remember that buyers can be unreasonable, just like sellers can sometimes be. The most recent feedback says a refund was offered, but shipping was too costly. That's hardly the buyer's fault or problem.

Snake_Doctor · 19-09-2011 2:41pm

Watch arrived in the Post last Wednesday, been a bit busy, but basically I am delighted with it, it looks brand new, and is keeping rock-solid time with the System clock in Work. Just got a tiny bit of misting on the inside over the Weekend, so I will probably replace the seal when I get a chance. I will add photos as soon as.
All good!

peasant · 19-09-2011 5:46pm

If you have the watch misting up (has happened to a few of my non-waterproof oldies as well ..sometimes you just forget

) it is a good idea to allow the mist to vent as quickly as possible, don't leave it sitting there or your watch will start to rust/get flecked from the inside out.

If you can't get the caseback off, at least pull the stem out and put it aside and off the warm wrist for a while until the dial clears again.

Ghost Train · 01-10-2011 11:38am

Just to add, I did order a basic watch from the watchdot ebay indian seller and four weeks later its arrived (big opened by customs stickers on envelope). Watch matches listing photos, clean, with new strap. Not sure how long it will last but for the moment it's ticking

. Will stick photo up in the pics thread

Snake_Doctor · 01-10-2011 11:57am

We should keep tabs on the watches to compare:D Actually mine did stop completely, but I think I half pressed in the day advance button by mistake, its going perfect since.

Ghost Train · 01-10-2011 4:49pm

I'm sure they'll both be fine *gulp*

Vintage Swiss as a Daily Beater?

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