Wireless programmable room thermostats

MrThrifty

Looking to upgrade to a wireless programmable thermostat system for use with a standard 3 zone heating circuit. The current system has no thermostats at all, not even at the cylinder. There's a lot of choice out there so just wondering if anyone has any recommendations (Honeywell, Heatmiser, Danfoss etc.).

I have the distinct impression that we're a bit behind in this country when it comes to wireless programmable thermostats and that we're still getting our heads around plain old wireless thermostats.

yoshytoshy

I've been putting in wireless stats a few years now. The reason they aren't used all the time is because an interlock is still required back to the boiler ,so theres still wiring involved with them.

DoneDL

Have a look online at wireless heating controls, my preference would be honeywell or danfoss.

youtheman

I used a 4-Zone Horstmann controller with 4 separate thermostats (1 cylinder and 3 room). One of the room stats is a Sunvic wireless stat. I believe you can also get a wireless cylinder stat. So this might be your best bet (controller, boiler and zone valves all wired back to a central wiring station, and the receiver part of the wireless stat(s) also wired back).

MrThrifty

Thanks for the responses but... I think there may be a bit of confusion over something. I'm asking here about wireless PROGRAMMABLE thermostats, not wireless thermostats. These are essentially a timer controller and thermostat in one, which gives much better control since you can program different temperatures at different times of day. So there's no wiring required between the thermostats and the zone valve controls, and also no timer controller connected to the controls. Instead you simply have either a few receivers or a multi-block receiver yoke located at the control valves and wired to them. So, with this setup, if you're up in the middle of the night and want to boost the heating on, you can do so from a thermostat since this is essentially the timer controller as well. There's usually lots of clever stuff built into the stats that monitors how quickly your house heats up and cools, and then modifies the programs so as your house is at the right temperature at the right time.

I don't mean to sound condescending here or appear to be lecturing, but like I said in the original posting, we seem quite behind in this country when it comes to this technology.

yoshytoshy

For the zone valves to be wired properly ,they need to be interlocked back to the boiler.

If your looking to do it cheaply without interlock ,check out heatmiser or siemens.

MrThrifty

In my case, the control valves are interlocked with the boiler already so I would just have to connect the receiver units to these instead of a regular controller.

DoneDL

Have a look at the Danfoss RX3.

MrThrifty

Thanks for that. But... I've just had a rethink about all of this. The cheapest and most practical way to have control of the temperature in every room of a house seems to be to put thermostatic valves in all rooms. Right so, let's suppose I do that then. So, do I actually need wireless thermostats in one or two rooms (obviously with the TRVs disabled or removed)? If not, the only issue is that the bloody controls are located in a garage and you'd have to go out there to change the settings or boost the heating. Can you get wireless timer controllers, not stats, just a wireless controller that would run off batteries from say the kitchen and then there'd be some receiver yoke at the controls in the garage?

youtheman

I still think you're trying to be too innovative. If you have separate controllers then you can adjust the system remotely. But then if you're downstaires, and want to go out, you have to race upstairs to re-set the controller.

If you boiler is in a garage then you can fite zone valves there, plus a wiring centre, plus some receivers for remote thermostats. All you have to do is pcik a location for a single controller (say kitchen) and run a multicore cable form the controller back to the wiring centre in the garage. You can then fit wireless thermostats in whatever romm you want. Plus you can fit TRVs in all other rooms (except the room with the thermostat). So the only cable to be run is from the wiring centre to the controller.

If you think you want a burst of heat upstairs in the middle of the night you can turn the controller to 'ON' for that zone and then turn the thermostat down. Whe you want heat just turn the stat up, and you have heat in that zone.

MrThrifty

youtheman wrote: »

I still think you're trying to be too innovative. If you have separate controllers then you can adjust the system remotely. But then if you're downstaires, and want to go out, you have to race upstairs to re-set the controller.

I'm realising now that you're possibly right!:)

But running a cable to the garage is not really an option. It can be done, but not very tidily (considered this before and running the cable inside fascia along the length of house etc.). That's why I was wondering if there's such a thing as a 3-channel timer controller that's wireless. Currently, the zoning controls and a hard-wired timer controller are already in the garage.

Asking another silly question maybe, I'm wondering now why you would really need a thermostat at all in a room if you could fit TRVs instead and just use a timer for control. The only thing I can think of is that it would save the boiler cycling if it already was a hot day and the timer triggered the boiler on. There's a bypass valve in place that would protect the pump obviously.

youtheman

A thermostat can turn a boiler on/off and thus regulate the temperature. A TRV cannot turn a boiler on/off, it can only regualte the max room temp, assuming the heat is already on.

In an ideal world every room would have a thermostat and there would be loads of zone valves. But this is impractical. To be practical you have to limit the number of zones. So if you have a zone for upstairs and fit one thermostat then you are guaranteed that you can control the temp in that room. The temp in the other room will be whatever it is, depending on the size of the radiator, the insulation in the room etc. It may reach a temp much higher that the room with the thermostast, or much lower. If you fit a TRV then you can can at least control the max temp.

TRVs are ideal for bedrooms where you may want a temp lower than another room on the same zone.

TRVs are cheap, and require no wiring, and have limited control (but not full control) of the room temp.

MrThrifty

Fcuk, youtheman alright! Never had thought about it like that before! So, basically if I'm getting the swing of this, you'd use TRVs in rooms that tend to reach their optimum temperatures quickly - so that usually means bedrooms which tend to be kept cooler and also any rooms that tend to overheat like a sunroom, attic conversion etc. Then you'd lob the thermostat for a zone in the room that tends to heat slowest so that the boiler is kept on till it's heated properly, at which point all the rooms with TRVs should be heated too (to the set max temperature).

youtheman

The location of the thermostat is very topical. When my house was built there was no zones, just a thermostat in the hall. My philosophy on the thermostat is : fit it where you can to control the temp. If you have a zone downstairs then fit it in the room where you spend most of the time like a living room (but keep it away from cookers, heaters, draughts etc. which will likely to give error signals back to the system).

If you have no zones then fit a thermostat to the master room, and TRVs to the others. If you have a zone for upstairs, then the same philosophy stands, designate one as the master bedroom (with the thermostat) and fit TRVs to the others.

MrThrifty

Good advice, I think I'll be going for a plain old timer controller with wireless thermostats!

MrThrifty

Not the most intelligent question maybe, but...

A) Are the outputs of the timer controller usually wired in series with the outputs of the wireless thermostat receivers to the zone valves which in turn trigger the boiler/pump when open...?

OR

Are the outputs of the timer controller wired to the zone valves and then the outputs of the wireless thermostat receivers wired via the zone valve switches to the boiler/pump...?

Both methods would give an interlocked system from what I can see but the first would mean that every time a thermostat called for heat, the zone valve would have to open again which would then trigger the boiler/pump. The second way means that the valves are kept open during the timed period but the boiler/pump only turned on when the thermostat calls for heat.

youtheman

The outputs from the controller are wired in series with the thermostats to the actuator on the zone valve. So all this circuit does is open and close the respective zones valve.

The limit switches on the zones valves are all wired in parallel to the boiler. So if any zone valves is open (as determined by the actuator limit switch) then the boiler gets a signal to fire. This is a vole free circuit.

MrThrifty

Thanks youtheman, it's A so and what I had always assumed. But it is interesting to me anyway how B would mean minimising the usage of the zone valve actuators and maybe increasing their lifetime. Maybe lifetime isn't an issue though!

Can I do all the wire connections inside an electrical box using strip terminal connectors or is there a better, more standard way of doing this?!

youtheman

You can buy a special box called a 'Wiring Control Centre' (or words to that affect). It has the terminal strip already fitted. I bought mine in B&Q, you'll see them in the plumbing section beside the thermostats, controllers, pumps etc,

MrThrifty

Perfect... While I'd hoped to finish this thread here and stop pestering ye any further, I might just chance dragging it out just for one last bit. I've been looking at all the wireless stat options for a 3 zone system (inc wireless cylinder stat) and the options are limited and not too cheap. But then, I discovered these: http://www.rvr.ie/Product_Groups/0_271_269/ !!!

Now I wasn't deliberately for the record looking for programmable thermostats any more, but just look at the bloody price - basically a wireless stat and receiver kit for ~70 quid. Granted they ain't pretty and the manufacturer seems non-existent when you google them (is that a roll of thunder I hear?!), but has anyone out there any experience with these?

I'd have concerns over battery life and the old 'buy cheap, buy twice' saying... but they're for nothing IF they work!

MrThrifty

Just for people's information, I've done a bit of research on the web into the different options out there for moving to a completely wireless controlled 3-zone heating system. Hopefully there's no issues or errors in my summary of things below:


Danfoss:
2 x programmable room stats
1 x programmable cylinder stat [ugly looking thing!]
1 x 3 channel receiver
-> Total of 4 parts, minimum wiring and a very straight-forward system.

OR

2 x room stats
1 x cylinder stat
1 x 3-channel receiver
1 x 3rd party 3-channel timer controller [e.g. Horstmann]
-> Total of 5 parts, straight-forward wiring and a logical and straight-forward system.


Heatmiser:
1 x programmable room stat with HW output
1 x programmable room stat
1 x 3rd party cylinder stat
2 x receiver modules (2 outputs each)
1 x 3rd party cylinder stat receiver
-> Total of 6 parts, bit of wiring work with receivers and end system is not very integrated. If cylinder stat were already hardwired then a total of only 4 parts would be required making it a much nicer system.


Honeywell:
1 x 'Sundial 'room stat
1 x 'Sundial' cylinder stat
1 x 'Sundial' 2-channel timer/receiver combo [real smart thinking!]
1 x programmable room stat
1 x receiver
-> Total of 5 parts, straight-forward wiring but end up with a system that's timed for 2 zones by a central controller and independently timed for the other (e.g. living area). Could work well though considering hot-water and bedroom heating requirements remain more constant than living area.


Horstmann:
2 x room stats
1 x 3rd party cylinder stat
2 x receivers
1 x 3rd party cylinder stat receiver
1 x 3-channel timer
-> Total of 7 parts, bit of wiring work with individual receivers and timer but otherwise a logical and straight-forward system


'Krugmann':
2 x programmable room stats
1 x programmable cylinder stat
3 x receivers
-> Total of 6 parts, bit of wiring work with individual receivers but a very straight-forward system. HOWEVER, the stats all lose their programming when changing batteries -> crazy in this day and age...


My opinion is that Danfoss and Honeywell are the winners in terms of component count and wiring simplicity. However, Danfoss's 4 part system is more straight-forward and probably cheaper too so it pips Honeywell I would think. Should Honeywell come out with a 3-channel version of the Sundial kit then this would knock everyone else out of contention since you'd have a centrally timed system with inbuilt receivers in the one timer controller for all your stats.


Edit: Oh yeah, I didn't bother writing about Drayton, Sunvic or Salus. Heard bad reports on the latter and thought both Sunvic and Salus stuff didn't look very nice. As for Drayton, same sort of offering here as Danfoss, but with individual receivers rather than a 3-channel one.

JohnnieK

And why Danfoss dont bring out a 3 channel programmer really baffels me.

JohnnieK

Did you add in the 3 zone valves in your pricing?

MrThrifty

JohnnieK wrote: »

And why Danfoss dont bring out a 3 channel programmer really baffels me.

Yup, I agree. I even contacted them to check that I hadn't missed it somewhere. Horstmann seem to be one of the few companies which offer a 3 channel controller and a nice looking one at that. Again though, for a 2 channel wireless system, Honeywell's Sundial RF2 Pack 3 kit is just ingenious with the receivers built into the actual timer controller.

JohnnieK wrote: »

Did you add in the 3 zone valves in your pricing?

Already have these so cost is gonna be between 300 and 400, depending on whether I run with Danfoss (cheaper) or Honeywell gear.

JohnnieK

MrThrifty wrote: »

Already have these so cost is gonna be between 300 and 400, depending on whether I run with Danfoss (cheaper) or Honeywell gear.

How much of a difference is there in the price? Personally I dont like Hortsmann I've had bad experiences with there actuators in the past so I tend to stear well clear.

MrThrifty

Horstmann and Danfoss gear is similarly priced for a 3 zone wireless setup, but as you say the Horstmann actuators are known to give more trouble. Now that I double-checked, the Honeywell gear actually isn't much more expensive, but it's not the ideal solution for a 3 zone setup. In my situation, the Danfoss gear is coming in at ~€340 (inc. VAT + del) while the Honeywell stuff is ~€370. For comparison, the Krugmann gear I mentioned is only €240! This is pricing for the stat controllers and receivers, not the zone valves.

strandsman

last year i fitted a "RF room thermostat" , I got two units and fitted them to both motorised vlaves (one for upstairs/down stairs) So i have 2 thermos located in the house (one for upstairs/down stairs) and when they reach the required temp it sends an RF signal to switch off the valve, and they are programable also. Previously I had to switch the valves myself as there was two switches located in the utility. I got them off Ebay there called "ECO progamable room thermostats" works fine for me.

MrThrifty

Came across the Tower ECO yokes alright but was a bit sceptical about the battery lifetime and possible interference with say a wireless alarm system given their cheap price. As it is, it looks like the Danfoss wireless system is the simplest, though not cheapest, solution for my setup so will run with it. It also has the 'optimum' stuff which means that the rooms (supposedly) reach the set temperature at the set times rather than just beginning to heat up then.

heinbloed

Here a cheaper solution:

http://www.conrad.com/ENERGIESPAR-REGLER-K.htm?websale7=conrad-int&amp;pi=560307&amp;ci=SHOP_AREA_37360_0812040&amp;Ctx={ver/7/ver}{st/3ec/st}{cmd/0/cmd}{m/websale/m}{s/conrad-int/s}{l/int/l}{sf/<s1>eQ-3</s1>/sf}{p1/016dcf332a64e7c2014ccf81f787e1a9/p1}{md5/2e363264d3104879acfe921c96e3df2c/md5}

JohnnieK

heinbloed wrote: »

Here a cheaper solution:

http://www.conrad.com/ENERGIESPAR-REGLER-K.htm?websale7=conrad-int&amp;pi=560307&amp;ci=SHOP_AREA_37360_0812040&amp;Ctx={ver/7/ver}{st/3ec/st}{cmd/0/cmd}{m/websale/m}{s/conrad-int/s}{l/int/l}{sf/<s1>eQ-3</s1>/sf}{p1/016dcf332a64e7c2014ccf81f787e1a9/p1}{md5/2e363264d3104879acfe921c96e3df2c/md5}

That's a funky TRV head in that link:) I dont think it controls the boiler though.