Platinum bead vs. Foamfill question

ctlsleh

Hi,
Getting quoted quotes for €2000 and above, (up to €2700) for a 2500 sq ft detached house(2story) for the bonded platinum bead and attic insulation, incl pipes, lagging of tank etc. Does this sound about the right price wise? I live in Clare.
Also they say they don't fill to the top of gables, is this correct and can anyone explain why?

Also I had a quote for foamfill, about €3000 excluding attic insulation. The guy says it's much better than beads, and you then don't need to insulate attic any further, can't see how that makes sense? And you don't get the grant, but is it a better long term

Also doethe bonded bead and the foamfill sag over time?

Appreciate the feedback
Eoin

sydthebeat

i am not aware of any foam fill for cavity block walls in this country that has certification.
Is this installer saying it has certification?

Saying that the attic doesnt need to be done is simply silly, and im glad you seem clever enough to see the bluff here.

Bonded bead doesnt sag over time as its supposed to be blown in with a glue, which sets in a semi solid manner.

€2000 minus grant (€520) for cavity and attic for a certified product

versus

€3000 with no grant and no attic for an uncertified product.



No question in my mind.

MicktheMan

ctlsleh wrote: »

Also they say they don't fill to the top of gables, is this correct and can anyone explain why?

Gable walls should be filled to 1 mtr above the ceiling line (where insulation is on the ceiling) and these walls should also have insulation fixed to the inner leaf to a height of 1 mtr in the attic. This reduces the thermal bridge of the inner leaf of the gable wall

Imo, there is no real reason to fill above this 1 mtr line on gable walls unless the attic is a warm space (i.e. the attic space is within the thermal envelope) or you are intending to convert the attic into habitable space in the future.

ctlsleh

MicktheMan wrote: »

ctlsleh wrote: »

Also they say they don't fill to the top of gables, is this correct and can anyone explain why?

Gable walls should be filled to 1 mtr above the ceiling line (where insulation is on the ceiling) and these walls should also have insulation fixed to the inner leaf to a height of 1 mtr in the attic. This reduces the thermal bridge of the inner leaf of the gable wall

Imo, there is no real reason to fill above this 1 mtr line on gable walls unless the attic is a warm space (i.e. the attic space is within the thermal envelope) or you are intending to convert the attic into habitable space in the future.

Thank you, no I don't ever intend to make the attic habitable(not enough height to make it worthwhile), when you say there should be insulation fixed to the inner leaf, could you kindly explain? Do you mean they should be drywalled or have the to Keiko somehow attached?

The guy said something about ensuring that there is no condensation in the attic that would perish the rafters over time, but I would have thought that the eaves provide enough ventilation?


Appreciate all the advice......regarding the foamfill, it's a well reputed Insulation firm with 25 years experience and munster based.....? I forget to aak if its approved, but the guy was quite pushy on it's attributes and performance over beads....

Thanks again,
Eoin

sydthebeat

ctlsleh wrote: »

Appreciate all the advice......regarding the foamfill, it's a well reputed Insulation firm with 25 years experience and munster based.....? I forget to aak if its approved, but the guy was quite pushy on it's attributes and performance over beads....

Thanks again,
Eoin

i have been heard that these guys can be very pushy alright... maybe a case of "the lady doth protest too much"..???
Its very easy to show a products suitability by handing out a certificate of performance. You have heard the radio ads for NSAI saying "so youve no certification?? good luck with that... door slams".... havent you?

Another piece of advice. If the product you use for insulation does not have adequate certification, then it must be ignored from a Building energy rating point of view. So if you were to sell the house the monetary value of the 'upgrade' might not be retrieved.

MicktheMan

ctlsleh wrote: »

when you say there should be insulation fixed to the inner leaf, could you kindly explain? Do you mean they should be drywalled or have the to Keiko somehow attached?

You have a cold attic. The inner leaf in the attic will also be cold which is contiguous with your warm inner leaf in the room below. Therefore there will be significant heat flow through this inner leaf from the warm room to the cold attic. It is therefore advised to insulate this inner leaf for a meter above the ceiling to reduce this heat flow. However, this is rarely done.
100mm of rigid insulation board would suffice, fixed tight to the gable inner leaf in the attic with no gaps between boards.

Not sure what you mean by "or have the to Keiko somehow attached"

Mick

maddragon

Mickthemans advice is excellent OP but as he says it's unlikely the company have included for the internal wall insulation in their quote. You can give them a fright by enquiring about it though. 2000 is a good quote for the work described. ***************

edit

sydthebeat

derealbadger

foam now has BBA approval and is far superior to beads

cert http://www.permagreen.ie/contentfiles/File/TechnithermR_BBA.pdf

by the way i have no connection with this company but i am in the foam game we dont have the BBA cert for walls yet but we will have by christmass

BryanF

ctlsleh wrote: »

Hi,
Getting quoted quotes for €2000 and above, (up to €2700) for a 2500 sq ft detached house(2story) for the bonded platinum bead and attic insulation, incl pipes, lagging of tank etc. Does this sound about the right price wise? I live in Clare.
Also they say they don't fill to the top of gables, is this correct and can anyone explain why?

Also I had a quote for foamfill, about €3000 excluding attic insulation. The guy says it's much better than beads, and you then don't need to insulate attic any further, can't see how that makes sense? And you don't get the grant, but is it a better long term

Also doethe bonded bead and the foamfill sag over time?

Appreciate the feedback
Eoin

Eoin, what is is your cavity's width :
7 general "(2) The cavity must not be more than 100 mm
wide (Northern Ireland only)" from derealbadger foam BBA cert http://www.permagreen.ie/contentfile...thermR_BBA.pdf

derealbadger

BryanF wrote: »

Eoin, what is is your cavity's width :
7 general "(2) The cavity must not be more than 100 mm
wide (Northern Ireland only)" from derealbadger foam BBA cert http://www.permagreen.ie/contentfile...thermR_BBA.pdf

that point has been withdrawn 01-07-2009


Standard Number BS 8208-1:1985
Title Guide to assessment of suitability of external cavity walls for filling with thermal insulants. Existing traditional cavity construction
Abstract Guidance on assessing the suitability of existing external cavity walls with masonry and/or concrete leaves for filling with thermal insulants. Does not cover cavity walls exceeding 12 m in height or cavity walls in which vertical members of structural frames bridge the cavity. Does not give guidance on design and construction of buildings intended to incorporate cavity insulation.
Status Withdrawn
Publication Date 31 July 1985
Confirm Date 01 March 2008
Withdrawn Date 01 July 2009
Cross References BS 5262, BS 5390, BS 5618, BS 5628:Part 3, BS 6100:Part 5, BS 6213, BS 6270:Part 1, BS 8110, DD 93
Amended By AMD 4996
Supersedes Draft 85/10230 DC
Descriptors Cavity walls, Exterior walls, Thermal insulation, Construction systems parts, Dimensions, Age, Stone, Cladding (buildings), Building services, Ventilation, Damp-proof courses, Gable walls, Winds, Rainfall, Weathering, Width, Dimensional measurement, Thickness
ICS 91.060.10 (Walls. Partitions. Façades)
91.120.10 (Thermal insulation of buildings)
Title in French Guide d'evaluation de l'aptitude des murs creux exterieurs au remplissage avec des isolants thermiques. Construction existante en murs creux traditionnels
Title in German Anleitungen zur Beurteilung der Eignung von Aussendoppelwaenden fuer die Ausspritzung mit Waermedaemmstoffen. Vorhandene traditionelle Hohlraumkonstruktion
Committee B/525/6
ISBN 0 580 14660 X
Format A4
Delivery YES
Pages 36
Notes This standard has been withdrawn as it is no longer used

hopalong_ie

The seai does mention at the end of a paragraph on their site although I can't find it now that there is a certified PU foam that is acceptable which has British Certification. Is this it I wonder. We have an apartment block to do but have held off due to the large size of the cavity and doubts breads would effectively fill it and the also the large drill diameter required for a red brick building.

Last Paragraph of this page:
http://www.seai.ie/Power_of_One/FAQ/Insulation/Wall_insulation/Pumped_Cavity_Insulation.html

"However, there is a polyurethane (PU) foam system approved by the British Board of Agrément which would be considered suitable for the purpose."

Spoke with the provider above.
Quote was per SQM based:

50mm Cavity: 20 euro per SQM
100mm Cavity 25 euro per SQM

Uvalue is 0.026

BryanF

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/spray-foam-jobs-lingering-odor-problems?utm_source=email&utm_medium=eletter&utm_content=20110907-smelly-spray-foam&utm_campaign=green-building-advisor

now i didn't read it all and I'm not suggesting this will happen with the product being discussed above, but here's an interesting article all the same

ctlsleh

All,

I checked the cavity, it would appear i have a 100mm cavity with approx 55mm of aeroboard in there already......i assume that would have been standard build around 2000/2001 when the house was built.

Just to clarify on the insulation of the inner wall leaf in the attic, i think I now understand the thermal bridging, so you have a warm wall underneath the attic and a cold wall above so you loose some heat upwards to the attic, but does this does that cause an condensation risks as significant temperatture differences at this point in the wall??
My guess is most installers dont want the hassle of doing this, anyone had any experience in this regard?

Eoin